abadbird said:
In popular media, I've only ever seen harem and concubine refer to the same thing; or rather, members of the harem were either already concubines or their sexual autonomy outside the harem was deferred to one or a few people, affording them similar power as a concubine. However, a concubine usually holds different status, lower or higher, in the household than does a blood-related family member. Concubines can belong to a harem along with non-concubine slaves, servants, and family members. Fortunate concubines can and did marry their masters while others members of the harem may have been married off.
Respectfully... Some of your definitions are a bit off..
Pedantry about 'Harem' and 'concubine'
A harem, traditionally defined, is a domestic space for the women in a Muslim household that is forbidden from all but close male relations. There are *similar* ideas in many other Mediterranean and Middle Eastern cultures, but "Harem" is an Arabic word.
The structure of the Harem, and associated monogamy/polygamy varies depending on local customs, status, and the individual family. It is, in all literal technicality, a place where women can go and be safe.
In the rest of the world, we typically understand a Harem as being one specific, special sort of thing--the Harem of a very rich and powerful man, full of his wives and concubines. Yes, his wives too. This "room of beautiful women," though, also potentially includes children, adult unmarried daughters, female servants, and Aunt Gertie who never got married.
The "room of sexy women, laying around, waiting for sex, who's only work is to dance most erotically" is a fantasy, likely originating from several European Renaissance paintings, and thus have influenced the perception of what has always been, a very foreign land to westerners.
That said, today, when we refer to a Harem, we, colloquially, refer to that room full of beautiful women. It's an anime/manga genre. The dorky young man suddenly finds out that there are a buncha lady who want to be with him.
A Concubine, on the other hand, is a social role, like 'wife' or 'girlfriend.'
A concubine is someone who is in a sexual relationship with someone they are not married to. Generally with the idea that it's a longer term relationship, and he cares for her.
An Arabian price collecting a beautiful woman for his Harem? Concubine. The King's mistress? Concubine. If Romeo and Juliette had, instead of exploding in a cloud of distress and miscommunication, started to see each other on the downlow? Concubine. Businessman regularly boinking his secretary? Concubine. When I was living with my husband before we got married? Concubine~.
Except that we generally use 'concubine' to refer to historical concubines, while preferring more modern words like mistress, girlfriend or fiancé when referring to real people we encounter, unless we think they're primitive or something.
A concubine can vary from being a sexual slave to being a most valuable and appreciated treasure nearly as important as an official wife, etc etc. If not more so. After all--The queen was chosen for him for the country and for politics, but the concubine was the one he chose for himself.
The one thing a concubine isn't is a *wife*.
We can say "concubines" and "harems" had different roles in different cultures, so prescribing one meaning as correct will fail. Best to choose a meaning for each tag and stick with it.
I thought I stated my position rather clearly. I think we should *get rid* of Harem, and replace it with a series of more clearly defined tags:
Harem_outfit - for the clothing:
post #1395324 post #1365044
Harem Setting/location - for a place of cushions, luxury, and extravagance:
post #1185063 post #1195791 post #1267107
Harem Theme/Male_with_Harem/Harem of Women (or female_with_harem, intersex, whatever) - for an individual with many who are focused on his well-being and pleasure:
post #1174266 post #1023575 post #1005507
As for concubine, I don't believe that it is something that can be *easily* determined via looking. Two random characters could be married or not. We don't know. marriage could even not exist in their world. we don't know. Just like we don't assume that two characters fucking are boyfriend/girlfriend/whatever.
My position is simple. You can't look at what's been tagged harem -rating:s and tell me they're not also concubines.
I can.
Because they very well *could* be married. Harems were, as a reminder, made up of wives, sisters, mothers, daughters, children and more, as well as concubines.
post #1392602 - This actually looks like he's being raped--perhaps captured and being 'used' for some religious ceremony. They are not concubines.
post #1386158 - These girls appear to be purchasable. Maybe they've already been bought, maybe they will be soon, but this looks more like a market for slaves, not a harem. And while, yes, they could BECOME concubines, right now, they're not.
post #1314055 - To be honest, this just looks like happy polygamy here.
post #1228223 - I'm pretty sure this is a locker room
post #1207075 - I'm pretty sure this is a stripclub or something. She's showing off the goods, but I don't think she's for sale.
They very probably are, especially the sexually submissive characters, and concubine does not need the presence of a master to justify the tag. The prospective concubine just needs to look the part.
So, what exactly does a concubine look like then?
Also, a group of one gender fawning over an individual of another gender in entertainment media is stereotypically seen as a harem today, with strong sexual connotations. They are all but concubines if they aren't yet.
Or they could be wives. Or maybe no one ever gets married in this world. Or maybe they're slaves.
Here's low-hanging fruit. It's actually probably derogatory (i.e., racist) to refer to anyone in vaguely Arabic "harem" attire, in the modern era, as a concubine, like calling a girl in revealing Western clothing a slut. Some may see it as praise.
Okay, aside of tags for a sec: 99.9% of women will not see slut as praise. If a woman calls herself that, then it might be okay if you do, but just because some people get off on bloodletting and knife play doesn't mean that they don't mind if 'just anyone' cuts them. Consensual dirty talk is okay. Calling a girl on the street a slut is not going to earn you any friends.
Alright, back to porn-land: the 'harem outfit' type of clothing is only vaguely based on 'real clothing'... but the pants, at least, were based on Middle Eastern styles-- after being passed through a Parisian Clothing designer (a particularly famous one, actually).
Likewise, there's no compelling reason to label showy Arabic attire as harem beyond ignorant assumptions. No one's going to fact-check clothing for period-correctness, so this point becomes moot anyway.
Well, I see the point you're getting at--I do!
Just, when you say/imply that everyone who thinks of concubines will think of harems, you're wrong. I actually think of Chinese concubines first and foremost. *shrugs* When I think of the arabian setting, I think of "his harem of many wives."
Egh. I'm probably done with that topic. The time I just spent doesn't justify foreseeable benefit.
I feel ya. No shame in that. It was nice talking with you on it. :)
Honestly, I think that Harem is just a mess and needs to be cleaned up. :)
(looking at the wiki, it's kinda funny. -- the first wiki version says "this is for the location, not the outfit'. 4 years later, someone says "this could be the outfit, OR the setting." 4 years later, someone else came along and edited it to say "one character with multiple partners OR the outfit!" no wonder it's a mess...)
(Should I start another thread about all this or shall we discuss it here, everyone else?)
Updated by anonymous