Muzzle size/shape is inaccurate, even in the show there are male characters with "female" looking muzzles and female characters with "male" looking muzzles.
In order to be accurate characteristics need to be consistent.

The typical attitude on many MLP images is that is it's a female character on the show, it should be tagged as female.
That is not TWYS, and is not an accurate tagging method.

I am sorry if it somehow offends people that a female character is tagged as ambiguous_gender, but we aren't tagging characters, we are tagging images.

Falord said:
Muzzle size is one... The grey character was never designed with eyelashes and is female. Your forgetting that there are male and female designs.

If you mean post #327336 then there are a lot of exceptions to that "rule". If not then what are the rules? I don't know them.

Hammie said:
I am sorry if it somehow offends people that a female character is tagged as ambiguous_gender, but we aren't tagging characters, we are tagging images.

You are tagging to make things easier for people who want to search for that term. :/ There is no other reason to tag.

Foobaria said:
Well, Char (or was it Ippi?) once ruled in favor of a female tag solely on the basis of eyelashes. So it falls under the same thing as everything else on this site: Whatever admin gets to it first, whatever they happen to feel like at that hour and day. It's all a crap-shoot.

Because in very simple character design, you have very simple details that make very big differences. Take a SIMPLE male character, add eyelashes to it, and it begins looking a lot more like a female. This is how a LOT of cartoons work. :|

Hammie said:
Muzzle size/shape is inaccurate, even in the show there are male characters with "female" looking muzzles and female characters with "male" looking muzzles.
In order to be accurate characteristics need to be consistent.

The typical attitude on many MLP images is that is it's a female character on the show, it should be tagged as female.
That is not TWYS, and is not an accurate tagging method.

I am sorry if it somehow offends people that a female character is tagged as ambiguous_gender, but we aren't tagging characters, we are tagging images.

Really now. Show me 5 adult male character that look like females from the show right now and you win your argument. Which mean colts/young characters are not allowed.

Aurali said:
You are tagging to make things easier for people who want to search for that term. :/ There is no other reason to tag.

Accuracy always makes things easier to find.
That is why accurate tagging is important.

Falord said:
Really now. Show me 5 adult male character that look like females from the show right now and you win your argument. Which mean colts/young characters are not allowed.

I'm sorry are colts/young characters all genderless?

Aurali said:
You are tagging to make things easier for people who want to search for that term. :/ There is no other reason to tag.

And certainly there are people who will appreciate that picture not being tagged female. Why are you suggesting that improving search it's not his intention?
If someone wants to search for character then xe should search for character.

Char said:
Because in very simple character design, you have very simple details that make very big differences. Take a SIMPLE male character, add eyelashes to it, and it begins looking a lot more like a female. This is how a LOT of cartoons work. :|

Gilda_The_Gryphon said:
If you mean post #327336 then there are a lot of exceptions to that "rule". If not then what are the rules? I don't know them.

Yea we all know people don't always draw on model but those that do what well you. Just because they have a female muzzle there gender can't be told because you can't see there eyelashes... really

Falord said:
Really now. Show me 5 adult male character that look like females from the show right now and you win your argument. Which mean colts/young characters are not allowed.

It's hard to show 5 male characters from the show without any restriction. Can I show the other way around? Princesses for example?

Sorry but without any official info, it all looks to me like fandom speculation. And I don't think that we should listen to those.

And really, if it's clear that there's no such thing as an established gender after rule change, which was the point of my initial post then we should post discussion in forum #69486

Hammie said:
I'm sorry are colts/young characters all genderless?

They model design match up a little with female just like young human look like similar tell they hit puberty. Then the girls get their breasts and that the big difference. For the MLP character the male character get long muzzles and every adult male so far has had the same far out muzzle.

Gilda_The_Gryphon said:
It's hard to show 5 male characters from the show without any restriction. Can I show the other way around? Princesses for example?

Sorry but without any official info, it all looks to me like fandom speculation. And I don't think that we should listen to those.

I talk about that one in the locked forum #69352 on the first page.

1. post #302814
2. post #330606
3. post #328838
4. post #327422
5. post #324144

Enjoy.

Hammie said:
3. post #328838

This is dickgirl for sure.

Fair enough, was tagged male.
I'll go find another then.

Edit: Here ya go, post #298333

Falord said:
Yea we all know people don't always draw on model but those that do what well you. Just because they have a female muzzle there gender can't be told because you can't see there eyelashes... really

Eyelashes are one of many traits that can clue you in on whether or not a character is female. If they're the ONLY distinguishing difference, then yeah, that's all you have to rely on.

If this looks like a female to you, congrats, you get what I'm talking about. :P

Char said:
Eyelashes are one of many traits that can clue you in on whether or not a character is female. If they're the ONLY distinguishing difference, then yeah, that's all you have to rely on.

If this looks like a female to you, congrats, you get what I'm talking about. :P

That's just a hot tranny.

Not having specific gender identifying characteristics = ambiguous

That why we have the tag, so it's not a system where we have to pick whichever might fit when none does.
As for Vinyl, I have seen both images that show her as female, and images that are ambiguous.
She tends to be ambiguous more often because the glasses cover one of the better gender cues.

When I look at each image, I think to myself, if had 0 knowledge of the character in the image, would I think that is male, or female, or too close to call.
More than 90% of images I've checked looked female, but you seem to ignore that and assume that I'm running around mis-tagging everything on purpose.

My suggestion earlier, and continued suggestion is that if you disagree, you ask a moderator to make a ruling because that's how we handle tagging disputes.
Then we wait for a moderator to make the ruling, and abide by it.

That's why Char's opinion was all I cared about in that thread, he was at the time the head moderator, and his word was final.

No, I don't give in to pressure when I believe an am correct, or veiled threats about how I'm "vandalizing" tags and had better stop.
I do respond to proper handing of disputes, and if a moderator tells me that I was the one who was wrong, I respect that.

Falord said:
Now MLP. They created designs types for this show. The key design difference between their genders is their physical design. The muzzle of males are far out, while the females are small and rounded. [Citation needed]

Gilda_The_Gryphon said:

Falord said:
Now MLP. They created designs types for this show. The key design difference between their genders is their physical design. The muzzle of males are far out, while the females are small and rounded. [Citation needed]

Citation: fan's brains

Aurali said:
We Do take secondary sex characteristics into account, Hammie looked like he was removing any picture that didn't have a vagina on it. :/

Besides it was only a neutral, and he's got a positive neutral just below it. so his negative zero was canceled out.

Believe it or not, neutrals on people who are trying to help bug them too.

Although I've always thought neutrals should expire if being used as reminders

Hammie said:
Citation: fan's brains

Gilda_The_Gryphon said:

Okay so we have thrown common sense out the window.. If I intended robots to do the programming I would have. If you can't see that they are females you need to get your brain off of penises and vaginas. There is enough secondary sexual characteristics to already make a leap of faith, the same one you guys already do for herms/shemales.

CamKitty said:
Believe it or not, neutrals on people who are trying to help bug them too.

Although I've always thought neutrals should expire if being used as reminders

I think we should use neutrals for more positive things, but no one can ever think of anything.. maybe just simple "hey you tag good keep up the work" type things.. a balancer of sorts.

Aurali said:
Okay so we have thrown common sense out the window.. If I intended robots to do the programming I would have. If you can't see that they are females you need to get your brain off of penises and vaginas. There is enough secondary sexual characteristics to already make a leap of faith, the same one you guys already do for herms/shemales.

If I would use my common sense than the picture would have male tag.
Pinkie Pie looks like crossgendered to male gender.
This pokemon looks pretty bulky, and masculine to me.
And finally the blue one looks really ambiguous to me.

Can we have your common sense downloaded? Apparently our common sense is defective.

Gilda_The_Gryphon said:
If I would use my common sense than the picture would have male tag.
Pinkie Pie looks like crossgendered to male gender.
This pokemon looks pretty bulky, and masculine to me.
And finally the blue one looks really ambiguous to me.

Can we have your common sense downloaded? Apparently our common sense is defective.

How can you say they look male. There face don't match up with any normal male character faces...

Falord said:
How can you say they look male. There face don't match up with any normal male character faces...

First of all that pokemon-goat horns are huge. In normal world it suggest that this is a male. And if you can guess goat's sex just by looking on its face then you sure are goat expert.
For me it looks like another goat face. Female or male.

And Pinkie Pie reminds me, somewhat, Ryu from Shaman King. That's not female hair style. And I don't see anything else that would suggest otherwise than established character gender which should not matter.

That's what my common sense tells me.

You know, if I and Hammie are thinking only about vaginas and penises then you have certainly face fetish. :P (jk)

Gilda_The_Gryphon said:

Can we have your common sense downloaded? Apparently our common sense is defective.

if you were to tag pinkie male, I'd not even glance at it negatively XD. the blue thing looks like an emo chick though.

Aurali said:
if you were to tag pinkie male, I'd not even glance at it negatively XD. the blue thing looks like an emo chick though.

For me all emos are generally ambiguous what it comes to gender.

But, as I said:

I said:
Still I can agree that blue one is female, and I can understand if record would be for tag warring instead of reporting someone who you think is tagging wrongly. However what Ratte said in comments is for sure untrue.

And I definitely don't agree that muzzle shape should be indicator of gender.
AFAIR correctly in the show there are no pink colored male ponies, is this the reason to assume that pink ponies are females?

Should post #261544 be tagged as feminine female

Gilda_The_Gryphon said:
For me all emos are generally ambiguous what it comes to gender.

But, as I said:
And I definitely don't agree that muzzle shape should be indicator of gender.
AFAIR correctly in the show there are no pink colored male ponies, is this the reason to assume that pink ponies are females?

Should post #261544 be tagged as feminine female

well that one is now all sorts of tricky, do we wanna blindly follow tag what you see and mark it a chick, or do we wanna mark it as girly + male and give a valid result to anyone searching for a combination of those terms, because both would be valid theoretically.

Aurali said:
well that one is now all sorts of tricky, do we wanna blindly follow tag what you see and mark it a chick, or do we wanna mark it as girly + male and give a valid result to anyone searching for a combination of those terms, because both would be valid theoretically.

Even most blind following of TWYS would give not female, but ambiguous_gender or male tag since lack of eyelashes is a clue in mlp style.

In contrast to head shape "rule" in show there was no exceptions to that rule. It was true for foals. It was true for alicorns. It was true for gryphons. If something is true for gryphons it has to be true.
And additionally that rule is very often true to other cartoon characters from different series.

Gilda_The_Gryphon said:
In contrast to head shape "rule" in show there was no exceptions to that rule. It was true for foals. It was true for alicorns. It was true for gryphons. If something is true for gryphons it has to be true.
And additionally that rule is very often true to other cartoon characters from different series.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

Aurali said:
I have no idea what you are talking about.

In few last posts Falord was talking about this

Now MLP. They created designs types for this show. The key design difference between their genders is their physical design. The muzzle of males are far out, while the females are small and rounded.

You quoted Hammie who was questioning this, and you said that we're thinking about penises and vaginas. I thought that in that case you were agreeing with what Falord was saying.

Gilda_The_Gryphon said:
For me all emos are generally ambiguous what it comes to gender.

But, as I said:
And I definitely don't agree that muzzle shape should be indicator of gender.
AFAIR correctly in the show there are no pink colored male ponies, is this the reason to assume that pink ponies are females?

Should post #261544 be tagged as feminine female

Gilda_The_Gryphon said:
Even most blind following of TWYS would give not female, but ambiguous_gender or male tag since lack of eyelashes is a clue in mlp style.

In contrast to head shape "rule" in show there was no exceptions to that rule. It was true for foals. It was true for alicorns. It was true for gryphons. If something is true for gryphons it has to be true.
And additionally that rule is very often true to other cartoon characters from different series.

Didn't even read the long winded post I wrote..... You know what. I am out of this forum. I stated my argument clean and clear. You are just find a reason to say its wrong.

Now the fans that draw these character may not always draw them to model.

Now if they draw the character aurea laurea to model in every way which was done in post #327867 is consider not female then go destroy every gender tag that doesn't have genitals in them and are drawn to model since the muzzle cue means nothing to you and nothing I say well make you understand.

That 'head shape'... let say a picture had only the view of a characters chest. If it had big breast it would tag female, if it had a flat chest and abs it would probably get male. let say the head shape could be compare to breasts. Your pretty much saying even if it has breasts it can't be female no matter what even if it doesn't have nipples The nipples would be eyelashes.

Falord said:
Didn't even read the long winded post I wrote..... You know what. I am out of this forum. I stated my argument clean and clear. You are just find a reason to say its wrong.

Excuse me for trying to find reason for my viewpoint. In future I would just say plain "no" to you.

Now if they draw the character aurea laurea to model in every way which was done in post #327867 is consider not female then go destroy every gender tag that doesn't have genitals in them and are drawn to model since the muzzle cue means nothing to you and nothing I say well make you understand.

I take back jk part of my previous post. You really have face fetish. But seriously, no. The fact that I don't consider fandom made trait as indicator of gender doesn't mean that gender=genitals for me. You still haven't posted anything to prove that it's thing characteristic for mlp fim franchise, and not another fandom guess. (Remember guess about that there are only 2 alicorns? These were good times.)

let say the head shape could be compare to breasts.

Nope, common anatomical fact cannot be compared to made up fandom rule. Try again.

Gilda_The_Gryphon said:
<snip>

Calm down.

Aurali said:
Calm down.

He looks plenty calm to me. He's just making his points.

If we're going by face shape as a gender indicator then all 5 of those images I posted a bit ago should have been tagged as either female, or dickgirl.

Should post #298333 be tagged female?
It has a small, rounded muzzle, which according to "muzzle shape" means female.

I like the lack of drama this rule tweak brought.

So when is someone going to step up and take care of takedown requests?

redisdead said:
I like the lack of drama this rule tweak brought.

So when is someone going to step up and take care of takedown requests?

Whenever a new head admin gets chosen.

redisdead said:
I like the lack of drama this rule tweak brought.

So when is someone going to step up and take care of takedown requests?

Sorry it's taking so long, with everything in turmoil the way it is, I would expect maybe a week for the images to be taken down. accounts moved, and the settings switched over. (Char decided it would be the best idea to use his personal accounts.. making this switch over a tiny bit harder)

Should we tag mlp pictures like
post #332512
which is bad quality edit of
http://derpibooru.org/218401
which is edit of http://g.e-hentai.org/s/f76cc6e5d2/535424-4 which has nothing to do with Friendship Is magic at all. I mean, it's just an edit with recolored hair, and eyes - does it really classify as "some evidence"? Is it going a bit too far, or am I just oversensitive. (Probably the latter.)

I mean there was almost no work done to change original characters to resemble that from FIM.

That is some pretty awful artifacting on that image. I don't think that should have even been approved considering it.

Also, as a side note, since the source is a garbage one, can we really get that it is "mlp" when it doesn't look it at all otherwise

CamKitty said:
Also, as a side note, since the source is a garbage one, can we really get that it is "mlp" when it doesn't look it at all otherwise

Imo no. Even if the source were proper, I'd think this would fall under the 'tagged what character based on what the artist says as long as a reasonable case can be made from the visual cues in the image.

Not to be repetitive, but no one answered my question.
Anyone help me out here?
I hate to leave this unresolved since it will just become an argument again later.

Hammie said:
If we're going by face shape as a gender indicator then all 5 of those images I posted a bit ago should have been tagged as either female, or dickgirl.

Should post #298333 be tagged female?
It has a small, rounded muzzle, which according to "muzzle shape" means female.

Hammie said:
Not to be repetitive, but no one answered my question.
Anyone help me out here?
I hate to leave this unresolved since it will just become an argument again later.

This is Braeburn, who is canonically male. It's just that this particular angle doesn't give a good representation of muzzle shape. It's safe to say that this one's a trap.

GreyMaria said:
This is Braeburn, who is canonically male. It's just that this particular angle doesn't give a good representation of muzzle shape. It's safe to say that this one's a trap.

No.
Tagging gender based on character is not TWYS.

Either it's female because we use "muzzle shape".
Or it's male because we don't and there's no other characteristics denoting it as female.

Show me a canon instance of a male pony in Friendship is Magic being displayed from the front.

GreyMaria said:
Show me a canon instance of a male pony in Friendship is Magic being displayed from the front.

I'm assuming you mean a muzzle.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-sTkhrzTvQYI/TyoAFitZrEI/AAAAAAAAdZc/s_DguBeB3X8/s1600/7.jpg

10 points please.

Aurali said:
I'm assuming you mean a muzzle.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-sTkhrzTvQYI/TyoAFitZrEI/AAAAAAAAdZc/s_DguBeB3X8/s1600/7.jpg

10 points please.

Comparison with a female?

http://dash.ponychan.net/chan/files/src/136373732848.png and that makes 20

Well, then in that case I would say that muzzle shape is not a good determinant when viewed from the front.

GreyMaria said:
Well, then in that case I would say that muzzle shape is not a good determinant.

Fixed.

Hammie said:
Fixed.

Incorrect, as from the side your typical MLP male has a block-fronted nose and your typical MLP female has a quarter-circle shape for a muzzle.

GreyMaria said:
Incorrect, as from the side your typical MLP male has a block-fronted nose and your typical MLP female has a quarter-circle shape for a muzzle.

Not always.
There are a number of examples where that isn't the case, and if it can't be applied universally, it's not a good guideline.

Hammie said:
Not always.
There are a number of examples where that isn't the case, and if it can't be applied universally, it's not a good guideline.

Show me canon counterpoints.

GreyMaria said:
Show me canon counterpoints.

Young ponies(snips etc.) and Luna, Cadence, Celestia.

Edit: Also, MLP canon =/= TWYS
We happen to have a lot of fan art here.

GreyMaria said:
Show me canon counterpoints.

Don't bother trying to convince Hammie. He just wants something to complain about. I've tried and explain every point alot of times to him. If you go back one page in this very forum you see I tried to explain. yet he still asking the same question.

You've failed to address my points a lot of times Falord.
I don't appreciate you telling everyone that I won't listen, I'm happy to if someone provides a valid logical counterpoint to my arguments.
No one has yet.

I did answer your question. Many times in many different forums. I even answer the question you were asking just know in my long winded post before. But it seems that wasn't enough if you had read it.

Falord said:
I did answer your question. Many times in many different forums. I even answer the question you were asking just know in my long winded post before. But it seems that wasn't enough if you had read it.

Hi Tauxiera, I almost didn't see you there-

Kiparis said:
Hi Tauxiera, I almost didn't see you there-

Dude, Tauxiera and Falord are different users…

Falord said:
I did answer your question. Many times in many different forums. I even answer the question you were asking just know in my long winded post before. But it seems that wasn't enough if you had read it.

I said "valid logical counterpoint".
You fail to address Luna/Celestia/Cadence's non-"female" muzzle shapes.
The fact that "muzzle shape" isn't canon, but a generality mentioned by fans.
And the issue with tagging non-canon character, or non-canon drawing of canon characters.
If you can't follow the same tagging guidelines with non-canon characters, it's a bad guideline.

Hammie said:
I said "valid logical counterpoint".
You fail to address Luna/Celestia/Cadence's non-"female" muzzle shapes.
The fact that "muzzle shape" isn't canon, but a generality mentioned by fans.
And the issue with tagging non-canon character, or non-canon drawing of canon characters.
If you can't follow the same tagging guidelines with non-canon characters, it's a bad guideline.

I did answer that question lol that the point. I am not going to answer it again. And Muzzle shape is cannon it was made by the creates of the show.... Atleast read my post to you...

Falord said:
I did answer that question lol that the point. I am not going to answer it again. And Muzzle shape is cannon it was made by the creates of the show.... Atleast read my post to you...

I did read you post.
Face shape is not canon as a gender identifier, because a canon source has not actually said it is.
You also didn't address the non-"female" muzzle shape of Luna/Celestia/Cadence at all.
Or the issue with non-canon characters, or cannon characters drawn in a non-canon style.

All of these are valid reasons to not use muzzle as a gender identifier, in order to say it is valid you have to counter all 3 problems.

In other words:
1. Find a canon source saying muzzle shape is a gender trait.
2. Find a logical reason that Luna/Cadence/Celestia still fit in the "female" muzzle chape definition.
3. Find a way to tag non-canon characters and non-canon art of canon characters according to muzzle shape as well without it being against TWYS.

If you can do those 3 things, I will happily cede the point and tag by muzzle shape.

Xch3l said:
Dude, Tauxiera and Falord are different users…

Missing the joke?
Missing the joke.

Joke

-------
your head

Xch3l said:
Dude, Tauxiera and Falord are different users…

He was making fun of the bad grammar.
To be fair, Tauxiera's is worse, some times I can't even tell what they mean.
Falord I can usually figure it out.

@Kiparis and @Hammie: Yeah, I got it after a while >_> didn't want to edit my comment because meh, too lazy…

Let me throw a monkey into the wrench here and say that, sometimes, guidelines aren't going to be perfect. In those cases, you may need to make the smart and informed decision rather than sticking to guidelines that we already know aren't going to be able to reliably cover every single scenario.

TWYS is law here, yes. "Don't steal" is also law in every developed nation, but it can't possibly account for every single scenario of stealing (stealing food so your children don't die, etc). Sometimes the system fails, and it's up to the people it applies to to make an informed decision instead.

Just saying, choose your battles carefully. If the failure of the system isn't going to cause a legitimate problem for a post, and it's "mistagged" as a result, take time to consider if that battle is really worth fighting, or if all you're doing is trying to force others to blindly follow an imperfect system (spoiler: there is no perfect system).

Does that mean we should, or should not use muzzle shape as a gender characteristic.

Char said:
Let me throw a monkey into the wrench here and say that, sometimes, guidelines aren't going to be perfect. In those cases, you may need to make the smart and informed decision rather than sticking to guidelines that we already know aren't going to be able to reliably cover every single scenario.

*shrug* I'll stick to "pointy-top rounded-bottom muzzle = female" and "squared muzzle = male". Either way, I don't upload that much…

Char said:
TWYS is law here, yes. "Don't steal" is also law in every developed nation, but it can't possibly account for every single scenario of stealing (stealing food so your children don't die, etc). Sometimes the system fails, and it's up to the people it applies to to make an informed decision instead.

This.

Char said:
Just saying, choose your battles carefully. If the failure of the system isn't going to cause a legitimate problem for a post, and it's "mistagged" as a result, take time to consider if that battle is really worth fighting, or if all you're doing is trying to force others to blindly follow an imperfect system (spoiler: there is no perfect system).

Damn, dude, I was reading that part! TT_TT

Char said:
Let me throw a monkey into the wrench here and say that, sometimes, guidelines aren't going to be perfect. In those cases, you may need to make the smart and informed decision rather than sticking to guidelines that we already know aren't going to be able to reliably cover every single scenario.

TWYS is law here, yes. "Don't steal" is also law in every developed nation, but it can't possibly account for every single scenario of stealing (stealing food so your children don't die, etc). Sometimes the system fails, and it's up to the people it applies to to make an informed decision instead.

Just saying, choose your battles carefully. If the failure of the system isn't going to cause a legitimate problem for a post, and it's "mistagged" as a result, take time to consider if that battle is really worth fighting, or if all you're doing is trying to force others to blindly follow an imperfect system (spoiler: there is no perfect system).

Now you make me feel like not to answer Hammie question again... and I had picture and everything lol.

Hammie said:
Does that mean we should, or should not use muzzle shape as a gender characteristic.

You still don't get it? wow

Char said:
Just saying, choose your battles carefully. If the failure of the system isn't going to cause a legitimate problem for a post, and it's "mistagged" as a result, take time to consider if that battle is really worth fighting, or if all you're doing is trying to force others to blindly follow an imperfect system (spoiler: there is no perfect system).

My worry is if/when these minor examples we ignore become more of a majority

His statement could be taken as either for or against muzzle shape, depending on how you read it.
Or as neither.

I only want a short and simple clarification so I know what I should/shouldn't do.