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Topic: [Beta] Lore Tags Crowdsourcing

Posted under Tag/Wiki Projects and Questions

Just to cover myself, all of the following is within the context of a lore tag. Any species not visually taggable as alien should remain out of the standard tag, and preferably be moved to a separate wiki.

I changed my mind on parts and re-wrote this while low on sleep and being distracted a lot so it's probably still wonky as heck. I just wanted to plug as many holes as I could.

watsit said:
What would classify as an alien in that case? As mentioned before, the term "alien" just refers to something "belonging or relating to another person, place, or thing". It's a question of scope beyond that. If it's "a creature/species not from Earth", quite a lot would classify, especially for settings that don't take place on Earth (Luke Skywalker is an alien).

So, what would alien_(lore) mean and apply to? If it's just "the creator said they're alien, then they're tagged alien", that doesn't seem very useful to the tagging system. The creature's wiki would probably be a better place for that information. Also, should it apply to whole species, or specific characters? Would a wookiee born on Earth still count as an alien?

Based on current the opening line of alien:
An extraterrestrial creature not in traditional myths and not native to the planet Earth.
For the purposes of a fantasy-based setting, terrestrial should be considered to mean (if available) the primary planet within the source media, unless Earth is also a significant location.

  • Alien status should be considered at species level, not character.
    • An alien transposed into an otherwise Earth-only setting is still an alien
  • Settings and artwork featuring primarily species identical to an Earth (including mythology) or otherwise terrestrial species must contain reasonable evidence that they are intended as a separate species.
    • If this is unclear, assume not alien
  • Artwork+sources must contain reasonable indication a depicted character is not simply in cosplay or disguise.

I want to pull more examples from your other post in the lombax thread.

[...] What makes turian an alien but not khajiit? Why's troll_(homestuck) an alien, but not mizutsune? They're all species that don't originate on Earth, are creatures designed with aspects of real animals but aren't themselves real animals, etc.

*turian: Established non-terrestrial origin = alien
*khajiit: Nirn is effectively a fantasy-terrestrial stand-in = not alien
*troll_(homestuck): Established non-terrestrial origin = alien
*mizutsune: I'm led to believe the Monster Hunter world is a standard fantasy-terrestrial stand-in = not alien

I still think the "this tag should only be added if the creature looks like an alien" shit of the wiki makes no sense, since aliens don't actually exist there's literally no frame of reference. you could argue that pretty much any feature of any character other than that of feral animals or humans is alien.

what makes vulcans more alien than hylians?
what makes majins more alien than goo_humanoids?
what makes puazi more alien than demons?
what makes martians more alien than endermen?

I don't think that the alien tag is something that we can really ever tag solely using TWYS, maybe with the exception of stuff that exists in real life mythology, like roswell_greys.

we shouldn't be holding the alien implication back from tags just be cause something isn't "alien enough".

I agree with darryus that alien makes no sense in a TWYS context. We don't know what an alien looks like in reality, and I doubt there's any consistency with extra-terrestrial life even if we could find it (just look at the diversity of life on earth, a single planet, and there's supposed to be a distinct look for life on all other life-bearing planets?), so there's nothing to base "what you see" on to tag it properly. At best it could refer to something like a roswell_grey or xenomorph, so should be disambiguated with those being suggested.

Lore-wise, it still feels arbitrary. The setting a creature is depicted in shouldn't really factor into it because different movies/games/books/etc can have different settings for the same characters and spacies. If Lombax, as an anthro creature designed as an amalgamation/chimera of different animal features, appeared only in a terrestrial non-space-based setting, they wouldn't be alien even if they then started appearing in space later on? But since they first appeared in a space-based setting, they are aliens?

E.T. only appeared in an Earth setting, but is undoubtedly of extra-terrestrial origin in that story, while Cthulu also has extra-terrestrial origins in Lovecraft's stories despite being on Earth. One is as much an alien as the other, it seems to me. Fox McCloud & Co aren't alien despite having extra-terrestrial origin because they're just anthros in space, but Catian are alien despite being just anthros in space because they have extra-terrestrial origin?

Then you have things like The Forgotten Realms, where real-life Earth is a distinct planet in the setting separate from the main world of (Abeir-)Toril, where most of the focus is placed, which itself is in one of multiple planes of existence, each with its own native life forms. Where's the line for alien there?

The Doctor is an alien, but not Luke Skywalker, despite both looking like humans, having powers and abilities real humans don't, and coming from non-Earth places. Luke's home planet is as much Earth-like as Chewbacca's (in as much as their home planets have one or more biomes that are reflected here on Earth), and neither of their home planets are the focus of the setting/story, but Chewbacca is an alien while Luke isn't?

Drawing distinctions like these doesn't seem very practical or useful for tagging to me.

I do still agree that it makes less sense as a TWYS species tag, particularly when most already have a unique species tag.

I think there are still minor issues with the counter-arguments, but I'm satisfied it's reached a point that if I can't clear it up with the post I already made, it's likely too finicky for reliable tagging.

(I almost went into Warhammer Fantasy, where official media contains gags suggesting it's contained within Warhammer 40k - then has the world end and suddenly everyone are spirit-beings. (Notably including the race who ARE aliens in base WHFB lore and escaped the end of the world by leaving in their spaceships)