The bulk update request #119 is active.

remove alias forge (0) -> forge_(artist) (0)

Reason: forge is a dnp artist, but can also be confused with the location or the action.
The avoid_posting might be added and auto-locked by mistake because of this.

It happened again with these posts :
post #2331463 post #2331461 post #2331457

forge should be aliased to forge_(disambiguation)

EDIT: The bulk update request #119 (forum #293189) has been approved by @Millcore.

I made a request awhile ago for this. I am the oldest topic holder, and already made the disambiguation page. This should be good to go.

https://e621.net/forum_topics/13660
https://e621.net/forum_topics/26366

Problem is that now people who upload forge artist, they are most likely not aware of how site works to check DNP list, so they simply tag it as forge, no artist tags are applied, post is approved, year later someone fixes the tags and everyone assumes the post is allowed to stay up because it has been for a year - yes, this has happened.

So if someone is not aware as to how to tag posts, especially now as upload form has tag autofill and button to check final tags, then it's more beneficial to have the avoid posting tag to show up.

Alternatively make disambiguation to implicate avoid posting.

mairo said:
Alternatively make disambiguation to implicate avoid posting.

That wouldn't solve the problem of avoid_posting being added onto posts that don't need it though. That would just make it even more confusing as to why avoid_posting is being added to posts, particularly for people unaware of the artist.

Ironically, this exact tag is the reason I avoided doing any tag edits for a long while, because I was afraid of stumbling into tags like this and messing things up.

vulkalu said:
That wouldn't solve the problem of avoid_posting being added onto posts that don't need it though. That would just make it even more confusing as to why avoid_posting is being added to posts, particularly for people unaware of the artist.

I'm under the impression the administration at least doesn't delete avoid_posting posts on-sight without looking into them.
I assume that was the concern here?

magnuseffect said:
I'm under the impression the administration at least doesn't delete avoid_posting posts on-sight without looking into them.
I assume that was the concern here?

The way I see it: The more posts there are marked with avoid_posting, the more posts that admins have to individually inspect, causing more unneeded work for them. Plus, it'd be confusing to some uploaders and tag editors as to why a tag they added is implicating avoid_posting, and currently, an artist they did not add.

It feels like it'd be easier to just disambiguate the tag without implicating avoid_posting. Anyone can add whatever tag is necessary, then, without needing to involve the admins just for this one tag that's forced on.

vulkalu said:
The way I see it: The more posts there are marked with avoid_posting, the more posts that admins have to individually inspect, causing more unneeded work for them. Plus, it'd be confusing to some uploaders and tag editors as to why a tag they added is implicating avoid_posting, and currently, an artist they did not add.

It feels like it'd be easier to just disambiguate the tag without implicating avoid_posting. Anyone can add whatever tag is necessary, then, without needing to involve the admins just for this one tag that's forced on.

It's true that ideally none of the posts which aren't DNP will not get locked with Avoid posting, but you have to look at both sides of the coin.

In case it's user uploading image with forge, not done by forge, they tag forge and now it's falsely having avoid posting tag locked. Changes of them doing incorrect and generally bad tagging job is high and this way staff can give them record for that and simply remove the locked avoid posting from the post.

In case forge is changed to disambig without implication to avoid posting, user uploads image made by forge and disambig is only thing left there. Post is approved, disambig lingers for half a year, because many of these tags are never cleaned up, another user might mass remove disambigs so now there's not even disambig in the post, time goes on, someone tagging artists to posts with source finally gets correct artist tag, but doesn't flag the post because it has been acceptable for year now. Artist finds out about this, does takedown, goes on rant about it on twitter, everyones mad.

So I would personally take a slight inconvinience which can additionally possibly bring up users doing bad tagging job (we already have at least one suspension thanks to this to my knowledge) over not enforced DNP list and bad PR.

Additionally like I already said previously, we now have even more tools at everyones disposal to prevent bad tagging, including tag autofill list which even shows that forge will be aliased to forge artist, previewing final tags which should show that avoid posting will be inserted into the post and popup stating when your upload has avoid posting tag locked in. If you somehow miss all of these, you most likely are uploading wrong and might require help and/or record.

I think my biggest question at this point is what happens when duo_(artist) asks for DNP?

mairo said:
Problem is that now people who upload forge artist, they are most likely not aware of how site works to check DNP list, so they simply tag it as forge, no artist tags are applied, post is approved, year later someone fixes the tags and everyone assumes the post is allowed to stay up because it has been for a year - yes, this has happened.

So if someone is not aware as to how to tag posts, especially now as upload form has tag autofill and button to check final tags, then it's more beneficial to have the avoid posting tag to show up.

Alternatively make disambiguation to implicate avoid posting.

This sounds like a non-issue / issue with how avoid_posting is handled. Shouldn't the admins get a heads up about freshly added DNP images without requiring users to flag them? It seems like that should be an automated process that doesn't need the help of users.

This could happen to any unknown_artist post at anytime, and there doesn't seem to be any corrective measures in place for that scenario either. I suggest flagging avoid posting images immediately as soon as the tag gets applied. I don't see the benefit of waiting until some user does it eventually. I think that is a better solution than keeping forge aliased, which only benefits this DNP artist.

mairo said:
In case forge is changed to disambig without implication to avoid posting, user uploads image made by forge and disambig is only thing left there. Post is approved, disambig lingers for half a year, because many of these tags are never cleaned up, another user might mass remove disambigs so now there's not even disambig in the post, time goes on, someone tagging artists to posts with source finally gets correct artist tag, but doesn't flag the post because it has been acceptable for year now. Artist finds out about this, does takedown, goes on rant about it on twitter, everyones mad.

But isn't it the case that posts without artists tagged take longer to get approved because they're put under more scrutiny before being accepted? If there's no artist tagged, and/or a bad or questionable source, I'd think the tags would be checked over before being approved for reasons like this (the artist could have a common term for a name, like forge or hologram, or it could be misspelled, where it ends up "hiding" in the general tags until someone fixes it later).

thevileone said:
This sounds like a non-issue / issue with how avoid_posting is handled. Shouldn't the admins get a heads up about freshly added DNP images without requiring users to flag them? It seems like that should be an automated process that doesn't need the help of users.

This could happen to any unknown_artist post at anytime, and there doesn't seem to be any corrective measures in place for that scenario either. I suggest flagging avoid posting images immediately as soon as the tag gets applied. I don't see the benefit of waiting until some user does it eventually. I think that is a better solution than keeping forge aliased, which only benefits this DNP artist.

The avoid_posting tag is the heads up, if it turns out it wasn't made by the artist but is about one of the other meanings we'll clean up the tags.

watsit said:
But isn't it the case that posts without artists tagged take longer to get approved because they're put under more scrutiny before being accepted? If there's no artist tagged, and/or a bad or questionable source, I'd think the tags would be checked over before being approved for reasons like this (the artist could have a common term for a name, like forge or hologram, or it could be misspelled, where it ends up "hiding" in the general tags until someone fixes it later).

Depending on where it's posted it's very hard to find the original and be able to assign it an artist. Having an artist tag like "forge" points us in a direction and drastically cuts on possibilities, hence why we prefer the salted earth approach in these situations.

watsit said:
But isn't it the case that posts without artists tagged take longer to get approved because they're put under more scrutiny before being accepted? If there's no artist tagged, and/or a bad or questionable source, I'd think the tags would be checked over before being approved for reasons like this (the artist could have a common term for a name, like forge or hologram, or it could be misspelled, where it ends up "hiding" in the general tags until someone fixes it later).

Problem right now is that we have handful of janitors of which half are not active, couple which haven't done anything for literal years, while at the same time the amout of uploads keeps rising almost daily.
At this point, you do have to start taking shortcuts, because main purpose of janitors is to accept and delete posts, not to fix post relations, sourcing or tagging. Sadly from what I have seen, there's posts from weeks ago where nobody has taken time at all to fix tagging or sourcing, even if it would be easy thing to do. We of course try to handle posts based on guidelines or rules, meaning that posts without artists or sources are the ones which we need more time to handle, but if there's no time to come back to them, so they need to be handled now on shaky basis.

We need a lot of new janitors here and overall people who know howto help and can help, instead of just yet another user creating account to upload all of their telegram groups furry porn here.

The bulk update request #119 (forum #293189) has been approved by @Millcore.