As long as pussy still aliases to vulva I don't see the issue with it.
Also +1 for vaginal_fluid. Discharge sounds grosser and doesn't cover the added lube/natural secretions ambiguity as well.

The bulk update request #6286 is active.

remove alias vaginal_fluids (199441) -> pussy_juice (4)

Reason: So the alias can be reversed.

Once this unalias is active, this will be done:
topic #42139

cinder said:
If you do a single alias (ex. pussy -> vulva, assuming that a reverse alias is removed), you don't need to remove all existing aliases and implications. They'll just get updated automatically.
Can't be done with a BUR, though. It specifically needs to be an alias request.

EDIT: The bulk update request #6286 (forum #387707) has been approved by @Rainbow_Dash.

Uh, fluids plural or just fluid? I thought it would be just fluid

scaliespe said:
wait wait wait

I already did this. Like, two years ago we had a thread very much akin to this one (I could probably go dig it up for context) and I decided I would take it upon myself to write the massive BUR to change pussy to vulva. I wrote something like 40 separate BURs for it (due to the 25/per limit), though I never finished it. Still had several more to go. But I already wrote most of it, and I’m pretty sure I still have the text file on my hard drive somewhere. Let me save you the effort (and not let my previous effort go to waste) and finish it rather than anyone else making a BUR for this.

tl;dr I’m 100% in support, vulva is already a more accurate term for what we’re trying to tag, and we’re gonna kill pussy_juice too, while we’re at it, because that one just sounds gross

Yeah vulva gets traction a lot but the change never happens

cloudpie said:
Uh, fluids plural or just fluid? I thought it would be just fluid

we use *_fluids for most of the other bodily fluids tags that don't have more distinct names like blood and sweat, although most of those are wider categories in themselves.

also, I don't know, "fluids" over "fluid" just kinda _feels_ more right to me for some reason.

Would switching to vaginal_fluids be consistent with the way ejaculation is treated? pussy_ejaculation currently implicates pussy_juice. Not only does this get into the sticky territory of "what even is female ejaculation?" it also seems a bit weird to tag it as vaginal when it doesn't actually originate from the vagina itself.

This seems like a spot where the vagueness of the slang is a bit of a strength, because it means you don't have to get into the weeds.

sipothac said:
we use *_fluids for most of the other bodily fluids tags that don't have more distinct names like blood and sweat, although most of those are wider categories in themselves.

Fair enough! I had misremembered

fluffypowersupreme said:
Would switching to vaginal_fluids be consistent with the way ejaculation is treated? pussy_ejaculation currently implicates pussy_juice. Not only does this get into the sticky territory of "what even is female ejaculation?" it also seems a bit weird to tag it as vaginal when it doesn't actually originate from the vagina itself.

Maybe it just shouldn't have that implication anymore? They're pretty different things. Like you said, it doesn't come from the vagina. Maybe it's just me but when I look up pussy_juice I want to see wetness from arousal, not squirting. If I wanted squirting I'd look up squirting. They just seem like very separate things to me.

cloudpie said:
Maybe it just shouldn't have that implication anymore? They're pretty different things. Like you said, it doesn't come from the vagina. Maybe it's just me but when I look up pussy_juice I want to see wetness from arousal, not squirting. If I wanted squirting I'd look up squirting. They just seem like very separate things to me.

It'd make sense, though there are quite a lot of images where it's hard to tell which is happening. Also idk how removing an implication works, but I imagine it'd result in a lot of mistagged images. Is there a process for sorting images after an implication is removed?

fluffypowersupreme said:
Is there a process for sorting images after an implication is removed?

Gotta be manual, unfortunately. But tagme.dev and tag scripts (if you're a privileged user) make it doable.

cloudpie said:
I see what you mean, and sure vagina would probably be a good compromise.
I'd like to add though that we have the opportunity to teach a large number of people what the word vulva means. I do think they'd get it pretty much instantly when they notice pussy or vagina (I do think we should keep vagina aliased for the same reasons you've said) aliasing to vulva, and if they prefer, then they could simply go on searching with and tagging "pussy" instead like they might already do with "dickgirl" since they're aliased.

Vaginal_fluids sounds good to me

It is a very unfortunate fact of life, that you can not teach the userbase beyond very simple site mechanichs. We are constantly getting a flow of new and inexperienced users. I really wish people could take it upon themselves to open an anatomy book and look at a diagram for ten seconds, but if a user experiences frustration and confusion for more than a few seconds, they tend to give up on it and leave.

rainbow_dash said:
It is a very unfortunate fact of life, that you can not teach the userbase beyond very simple site mechanichs. We are constantly getting a flow of new and inexperienced users. I really wish people could take it upon themselves to open an anatomy book and look at a diagram for ten seconds, but if a user experiences frustration and confusion for more than a few seconds, they tend to give up on it and leave.

An alias would also redirect searches tho, right?

dimoretpinel said:
An alias would also redirect searches tho, right?

Yes, but then when you want to further search the tag, or explore related tags, the tags list on the left becomes very confusing. Aliases are also not foolproof when it comes to wikis and other parts of the site.

rainbow_dash said:
It is a very unfortunate fact of life, that you can not teach the userbase beyond very simple site mechanichs. We are constantly getting a flow of new and inexperienced users. I really wish people could take it upon themselves to open an anatomy book and look at a diagram for ten seconds, but if a user experiences frustration and confusion for more than a few seconds, they tend to give up on it and leave.

I mean, we have been able to slowly infect the wider furry community (and other bits of internet) with our newspeak terms for intersex individuals. so, it wouldn't be too out of the question that people learn actual anatomical terms from tags.

but at the same time, for tagging purposes we ought to have a relatively commonly understood term to use for the female genitalia in general. and vagina is the term most commonly associated with it in common speech.

and in either case, several of the things that are currently aliased away to pussy really ought not be. like, I could never really grock the reasoning that lead to nixing stuff like labia; it seems to kind of fly in the face of the current tagging philosophy. we should probably undo that decision, even if the decision to change pussy's tag name remains permanently deadlocked.

sipothac said:
I mean, we have been able to slowly infect the wider furry community (and other bits of internet) with our newspeak terms for intersex individuals. so, it wouldn't be too out of the question that people learn actual anatomical terms from tags.

but at the same time, for tagging purposes we ought to have a relatively commonly understood term to use for the female genitalia in general. and vagina is the term most commonly associated with it in common speech.

and in either case, several of the things that are currently aliased away to pussy really ought not be. like, I could never really grock the reasoning that lead to nixing stuff like labia; it seems to kind of fly in the face of the current tagging philosophy. we should probably undo that decision, even if the decision to change pussy's tag name remains permanently deadlocked.

And there I was, an entire decade ago, defending labia! How the time flies.

This really shouldn't be compared with the cub changes, those were necessary and were desperately needed. This is most certainly not needed, and I believe would be harmful for both tagging and searching.

34 BURs because the term pussy is slang? That's an insane amount of changes with basically zero benefit. Not only that, the chances of these BURs being incorrect, messing up blacklists, or failing are very high.

We've already learned from topic #36246. There's no need to make the same mistakes again. All that is needed is for the tag to be understood and useful for searching. We do not need to be technical.

If this happens, we're going to have a lot more issues. One example is someone tagging vagina when it is actually labia or vulva or whatever else that is visible. This is going to have to be corrected constantly, and is just one of the reasons why slang is used.

kyiiel said:
We've already learned from topic #36246. There's no need to make the same mistakes again.

Women are not some obscure other species where generally only taxonomy enthusiasts and biologists should be expected to identify the basic parts of our genitalia. Our genitalia are not bizarre, mysterious, icky things that need to be referred to by crass slang. If people can learn and use the word penis instead of cock or dick, they are just as capable of learning and use the word vulva (or even vagina! that would be the second best thing) instead of pussy. I agree it really sucks that sex ed is so bad in so many places, but it literally only takes hearing the meaning of this word one time to learn what it means. People can keep using the pussy versions of the tags exactly like they always have, if they prefer, since it would be aliased.

The point of the change is that multiple female users (reinayeen, snake-girl, myself, maybe others in the thread who haven't referenced their gender?) have voiced that it's uncomfortable and unintentionally sexist that male genitalia are tagged accurately and with correct language while female genitalia are not.

kyiiel said:
One example is someone tagging vagina when it is actually labia or vulva or whatever else that is visible.

I believe vagina would need to stay aliased to vulva for convenience, despite not being the same thing in real life. I don't think anyone argued that it shouldn't. The ONLY difference is that instead of being called pussy, we call this body part by its actual name, "vulva".
I personally think labia should stay aliased to vulva as well, since it's ambiguous, it could refer to either inner or outer labia. IMO Inner_labia are worth tagging, however, since they may or may not be drawn on any given image of a vulva and some people really like them and would want to search for them. (outer_labia appear on basically every humanoid pussy and I don't think they need their own tag).

cloudpie said:
Please!
Will it be changed to vaginal_discharge or vaginal_lubrication or?

I wrote the BUR to alias it all to vaginal_fluids, so I'm going to stick with that unless a better name comes up. It sounds a lot less gross than "discharge," to be honest.

cloudpie said:

Maybe it just shouldn't have that implication anymore? They're pretty different things. Like you said, it doesn't come from the vagina. Maybe it's just me but when I look up pussy_juice I want to see wetness from arousal, not squirting. If I wanted squirting I'd look up squirting. They just seem like very separate things to me.

This was one of my stumbling blocks with the huge BUR I was working on. I couldn't figure out what to change the name to, or if it should even keep that implication.

sipothac said:
and in either case, several of the things that are currently aliased away to pussy really ought not be. like, I could never really grock the reasoning that lead to nixing stuff like labia; it seems to kind of fly in the face of the current tagging philosophy. we should probably undo that decision, even if the decision to change pussy's tag name remains permanently deadlocked.

cloudpie said:

I personally think labia should stay aliased to vulva as well, since it's ambiguous, it could refer to either inner or outer labia. IMO Inner_labia are worth tagging, however, since they may or may not be drawn on any given image of a vulva and some people really like them and would want to search for them. (outer_labia appear on basically every humanoid pussy and I don't think they need their own tag).

Well, we did just get inner_labia unaliased and ready for use, at long last.

rainbow_dash said:
Yes, but then when you want to further search the tag, or explore related tags, the tags list on the left becomes very confusing. Aliases are also not foolproof when it comes to wikis and other parts of the site.

From my experience, the average user never even touches wikis or any tags more advanced than the really basic ones. If pussy gets aliased to vulva, I think they'll just continue to use it as normal and likely not even notice.

Just weighing in here as someone who has a shred of common sense.

We don't anatomically disect the penis in tags, or you would have to go for, perinium, scrotum, glans, etc. Vagina is fine for a term for the sexual organ, but to go as far as to start calling a sexual organ a particular part of the anatomy, vulvae, eludes me.

I personally accept a correct naming of the vagina if it pleases other people, but a lot of people just prefer the way the word pussy sounds. Blame it on a male-oriented userbase pehaps.

TLDR - either be clinical and concise about tagging, or don't.

justsomeman said:
We don't anatomically disect the penis in tags, or you would have to go for, perinium, scrotum, glans, etc.

We do. Perineum, glans, frenulum, foreskin, urethra, etc., and that's not even including animal-specific stuff like knot, penile spines, medial ring and flared penis. Just because the average tagger doesn't use more than the most basic of tags at best doesn't mean they don't exist and aren't valid. Not sure what "common sense" point you're trying to make when most of the proposed tags would still end up implying vulva as an 'umbrella tag', like penis, since vulva emcompasses just about everything that's currently tagged as pussy.

Not to be an impatient and annoying little mosquito bothering the whole thread

but

I would appreciate if we could discuss and approve/reject my unalias request for vaginal_fluids quickly, so we can advance.

I don’t want to see the thread devolve into "male users are too stupid to name things correctly" again.

But I don't wanna grow up!

So the goal of this is just to rename all pussy tags to something else? If we do that, then I'd choose vulva for most of the replacement terms. If we're renaming the term at all, then I'm not particularly sympathetic to what users will need to learn. Using correct words where they work can actually lessen confusion instead of intentionally choosing the wrong terms for some things (e.g., vagina). Choosing commonly used, incorrect terms again literally just punts another rename five years down the road. Rip the band-aid off. Improving the userbase's vocabulary is a multi-year commitment anyway. Ironically, I think we must choose only one of vulva or vagina and keep the other aliased because "vagina" is still rampantly misused everywhere and I think we can safely assume that it will get tagged incorrectly for the exterior genitals.

Rather than think about BURs, I'd just want to see a huge list of [current_tag] -> [proposed_tag] and see what works as *_vulva, what needs more work, and what can be done better than *_vulva. For example...

(Wow. Our table syntax is ass.)

On the positive side, I think this project is mostly just renames and shouldn't require too much tagging.

One thing I do not want is new tagging complexity. I don't want to add new things to tag. Renaming existing tags to more precise names is okay, but I don't want to feel the burden of more things to tag unless there's a good reason. And "someone might want to search..." is not a good enough reason. Anyone could say that about anything. It's a platitude. A careless, effortless, throwaway phrase. Put some meat on that thang.

cloudpie said:
Women are not some obscure other species where generally only taxonomy enthusiasts and biologists should be expected to identify the basic parts of our genitalia. Our genitalia are not bizarre, mysterious, icky things that need to be referred to by crass slang. If people can learn and use the word penis instead of cock or dick, they are just as capable of learning and use the word vulva (or even vagina! that would be the second best thing) instead of pussy.

According to what I was taught, the female reproductive system is significantly more anatomically complex (or "important") than the male reproductive system, without factoring in conception through to birth. My sex ed classes had heavy emphases on the female side. When it came to the male parts, my teachers were like "there isn't much to teach you or test you on lol."

These threads have been low-key gender reveal parties.

abadbird said:
So the goal of this is just to rename all pussy tags to something else? If we do that, then I'd choose vulva for most of the replacement terms. If we're renaming the term at all, then I'm not particularly sympathetic to what users will need to learn. Using correct words where they work can actually lessen confusion instead of intentionally choosing the wrong terms for some things (e.g., vagina). Choosing commonly used, incorrect terms again literally just punts another rename five years down the road. Rip the band-aid off. Improving the userbase's vocabulary is a multi-year commitment anyway. Ironically, I think we must choose only one of vulva or vagina and keep the other aliased because "vagina" is still rampantly misused everywhere and I think we can safely assume that it will get tagged incorrectly for the exterior genitals.

I agree with the entirety of the above post.

Labra said:
We do. Perineum, glans, frenulum, foreskin, urethra, etc., and that's not even including animal-specific stuff like knot, penile spines, medial ring and flared penis. Just because the average tagger doesn't use more than the most basic of tags at best doesn't mean they don't exist and aren't valid. Not sure what "common sense" point you're trying to make when most of the proposed tags would still end up implying vulva as an 'umbrella tag', like penis, since vulva emcompasses just about everything that's currently tagged as pussy.

The thing here is these are all part of the genitals, I agree. Penis is an agreed term to describe the entirety of the genitals. Vagina, though it is the canal used for reproduction in actuality, is also the the term to describe the entirety of those genitals. The vulva is an external fatty tissue, as is the mons pubis.

After reading the thread I don't understand why the vulva would be chosen to represent the vagina as a colloquial term. As I said prior, vagina makes sense if people want to be specific and move away from pussy, but we are just swapping an accepted word by the majority for another accepted word. If that solves all bases then we are in agreement.

justsomeman said:
I agree with the entirety of the above post.

The thing here is these are all part of the genitals, I agree. Penis is an agreed term to describe the entirety of the genitals. Vagina, though it is the canal used for reproduction in actuality, is also the the term to describe the entirety of those genitals. The vulva is an external fatty tissue, as is the mons pubis.

After reading the thread I don't understand why the vulva would be chosen to represent the vagina as a colloquial term. As I said prior, vagina makes sense if people want to be specific and move away from pussy, but we are just swapping an accepted word by the majority for another accepted word. If that solves all bases then we are in agreement.

The vulva is the external part. We dont tag testicles unless theyre out of the body. The current balls tag refers to the scrotum not the organs itself.

its simple.

Additionally, the vulva is inclusive to both labia and the clitoris glans and hood. The vagina is a single hole.

Additionally sometimes users want to specifically see the Vagina, without distinction you cannot tag for where it is visible.

demesejha said:
The vulva is the external part. We dont tag testicles unless theyre out of the body. The current balls tag refers to the scrotum not the organs itself.

its simple.

Additionally, the vulva is inclusive to both labia and the clitoris glans and hood. The vagina is a single hole.

Additionally sometimes users want to specifically see the Vagina, without distinction you cannot tag for where it is visible.

I mean sure, but nobody calls it that. Online, irl, anywhere, outside of a medical context. I'm not walking up to my partner and saying "oh you got some sexy vulva", nobody is, sorry.

For users that want to see the Vagina, specifically as you say, Vaginal_canal exists. But you cannot look at the organ without looking at it in it's entirety without making new tags.

I mean renaming it to Vulva would both educate and confuse a lot of people simultaneously. Seems unnecessary.

Edit:
And I don't think people would like the balls tag to be changed to Scrotum either. Nobody is going around saying "check out that scrotum".

justsomeman said:
Edit:
And I don't think people would like the balls tag to be changed to Scrotum either. Nobody is going around saying "check out that scrotum".

We tag anus instead of "butthole", and everybody seems fine with that, even though most probably don't say "check out that anus".

We also tag areola, a word I'd say is about as likely for your average e621 user to already know the meaning of as vulva. (Though granted I can't think of any slang terms for that one)

For what it's worth, Danbooru uses the tag "testicles" instead of balls. Scrotum isn't a tag—not even an alias.

vulpes_artifex said:
For what it's worth, Danbooru uses the tag "testicles" instead of balls. Scrotum isn't a tag—not even an alias.

I think we should tag testicles and scrotum separately due to twys and xray_views- similarly to ovary. If ovaries have their tag despite being internal, I think testicles should too?

dimoretpinel said:
I think we should tag testicles and scrotum separately due to twys and xray_views- similarly to ovary. If ovaries have their tag despite being internal, I think testicles should too?

I understand, but I feel like this would lead to such severe unstoppable mistagging that it'd be better to have scrotum replace the main balls tag, testicles be aliased to it to stop this mistagging, and for xray view actual testicles we have a separate tag. Maybe testicles_(gonads) or testes_(gonads)?

The bulk update request #6286 (forum #387707) has been approved by @Rainbow_Dash.

cloudpie said:
and for xray view actual testicles we have a separate tag.

What is it? I know we have exposed testicle but that's for actually physically exposed ones (gore and stuff).

auto_moderator said:
The bulk update request #6286 (forum #387707) has been approved by @Rainbow_Dash.

Hey guys topic #42189

pleaseletmein said:
What is it? I know we have exposed testicle but that's for actually physically exposed ones (gore and stuff).

Sorry I meant that as a suggestion - to my knowledge we don't have one yet

Just popping in to say I'd be happy to see these changes, and I'm glad some folks are motivated to try to make some good progress here.

justsomeman said:
I mean sure, but nobody calls it that. Online, irl, anywhere, outside of a medical context. I'm not walking up to my partner and saying "oh you got some sexy vulva", nobody is, sorry.

For users that want to see the Vagina, specifically as you say, Vaginal_canal exists. But you cannot look at the organ without looking at it in it's entirety without making new tags.

I mean renaming it to Vulva would both educate and confuse a lot of people simultaneously. Seems unnecessary.

Edit:
And I don't think people would like the balls tag to be changed to Scrotum either. Nobody is going around saying "check out that scrotum".

Except no. Thats flat out untrue, because I quite literally do so regularly, so do most of the people I know and the fact that your personal experience and circle of friends has not done so is not an example.

The simple fact of the matter is more people DO use and already know what a vulva is, what it means, and there is no reason to act like its confusing or strange. Its a perfectly normal word, Vagina is incorrect and secondarily again as I already said, you cannot tag the image of the vaginal hole itself with it being aliased the way you are advocating.

IDK anyone who didn't learn this in school either??? This is common knowledge or, I thought it was.

pleaseletmein said:
What is it? I know we have exposed testicle but that's for actually physically exposed ones (gore and stuff).

Unfortunately doesnt exist, and there is no way to tag it due to the current "balls" tag

demesejha said:
you cannot tag the image of the vaginal hole itself with it being aliased the way you are advocating.

I agree with you, but due to the inevitable torrent of mistagging if vagina wasn't aliased to vulva, can we call the tag for the hole vaginal_opening and/or vaginal_canal (pre-existing tag)?

cloudpie said:
Sorry I meant that as a suggestion - to my knowledge we don't have one yet

you wrote it as one too, I just can't read :P

cloudpie said:
I agree with you, but due to the inevitable torrent of mistagging if vagina wasn't aliased to vulva, can we call the tag for the hole vaginal_opening and/or vaginal_canal (pre-existing tag)?

100% agreed there