Part 2 of Knots BUR, modified after discussion from Part 1 (see topic #27933).

Major changes that will come from these BURs includes:

• Expanding the definition of knot to include not just penile knots from characters, but also non-penile knots such as from sex toys, tentacles, etc. Current use of knot will be moved to knotted_penis.
• Creation of penile_knotting and dildo_knotting for separating character-on-character and character-on-toy knottings.
• Creation of realistic_knotting for realistically-inflating knots that naturally expand within characters.
• Creation of knotted_tentacle and tentacle_knotting tags for knots and knottings on tentacles. (removed, pending discussion)

The bulk update request #8238 is pending approval.

create alias knotted_cock (1) -> knotted_penis (17)
create implication knotted_penis (17) -> knot (194003)
create implication knotted_dildo (4342) -> knot (194003)
remove alias knotted_dragon_penis (0) -> knot (194003)
create alias knotted_canine_penis (0) -> knotted_penis (17)
create implication knotted_equine_penis (3007) -> knotted_penis (17)
create implication knotted_feline_penis (147) -> knotted_penis (17)
create implication knotted_humanoid_penis (2542) -> knotted_penis (17)
create implication knotted_tapering_penis (281) -> knotted_penis (17)
create implication knotted_tapering_penis (281) -> tapering_penis (33841)
create implication knotted_canine_dildo (0) -> knotted_dildo (4342)
create implication knotted_equine_dildo (34) -> knotted_dildo (4342)
create implication knotted_feline_dildo (0) -> knotted_dildo (4342)
create implication knotted_humanoid_dildo (0) -> knotted_dildo (4342)
create implication knotted_tapering_dildo (0) -> knotted_dildo (4342)

Reason: Part 2a of Knots BUR, regarding implications for knot, knotted_penis, knotted_dildo, etc.

The bulk update request #8239 is pending approval.

create implication penile_knotting (1) -> knotting (24143)
create implication penile_knotting (1) -> knotted_penis (17)
create implication penile_knotting (1) -> penile_penetration (287429)
create implication dildo_knotting (224) -> knotting (24143)
create implication dildo_knotting (224) -> knotted_dildo (4342)
create implication dildo_knotting (224) -> dildo_penetration (212)
create implication realistic_knotting (1) -> knotting (24143)
create implication knot_root_fucking (16) -> knotting (24143)
create implication knot_train (28) -> knotting (24143)
create implication cervical_knotting (7) -> vaginal_knotting (6565)
create alias throat_knotting (10) -> oral_knotting (2001)

Reason: Part 2b of Knots BUR, regarding implications for knotting.

The bulk update request #8240 is pending approval.

create alias canine_knotted_penis (0) -> knotted_canine_penis (0)
create alias equine_knotted_penis (0) -> knotted_equine_penis (3007)
create alias feline_knotted_penis (0) -> knotted_feline_penis (147)
create alias humanoid_knotted_penis (0) -> knotted_humanoid_penis (2542)
create alias tapering_knotted_penis (0) -> knotted_tapering_penis (281)
create alias canine_knotted_dildo (0) -> knotted_canine_dildo (0)
create alias equine_knotted_dildo (0) -> knotted_equine_dildo (34)
create alias feline_knotted_dildo (0) -> knotted_feline_dildo (0)
create alias humanoid_knotted_dildo (0) -> knotted_humanoid_dildo (0)
create alias tapering_knotted_dildo (0) -> knotted_tapering_dildo (0)

Reason: Part 2c of Knots BUR, supplementary aliases for redundancy.

Should knot apply to non-penises? I thought the whole thing with knots was that they're a bulbous growth on certain types of penises, so on non-penises it's just a bulbous growth.

watsit said:
Should knot apply to non-penises? I thought the whole thing with knots was that they're a bulbous growth on certain types of penises, so on non-penises it's just a bulbous growth.

As mentioned on Part 1, knot will become a purely visual tag, meaning anything that looks like a canine knot (including but not limited to, knotted dildos, knotted tentacles, etc.).
The penis-only use of knot is now found on knotted_penis.

If this sounds redundant because most people tagging knot would be referring to knotted_penis, then you can consider the disambiguation route since knot can appear on more than just penises.

thegreatwolfgang said:
As mentioned on Part 1, knot will become a purely visual tag, meaning anything that looks like a canine knot (including but not limited to, knotted dildos, knotted tentacles, etc.).

A knot is just a bulbous growth on a penis, which can have very different stylistic depictions. Anything that "looks like a canine knot" is basically any lump, which would include bulbous_noses, lumpy ovipositors, and more. IMO, it's better to just keep knot as meaning a knotted penis. Or at most, knotted penises and knotted dildos (where the dildo is shaped to look like a penis, not just any pole with a bump).

watsit said:
A knot is just a bulbous growth on a penis, which can have very different stylistic depictions. Anything that "looks like a canine knot" is basically any lump, which would include bulbous_noses, lumpy ovipositors, and more. IMO, it's better to just keep knot as meaning a knotted penis. Or at most, knotted penises and knotted dildos (where the dildo is shaped to look like a penis, not just any pole with a bump).

I don't understand the issue you are trying to raise say here. I'm not redefining it to mean anything lumpy, bulbous, or ball-like.
The definition of knot will mostly stay the same, but will now become an umbrella tag to encompass other stuff like knotted_dildo, knotted_tentacle, etc.

If knot were to be aliased to knotted_penis, then the other tags (i.e., knotted_dildo, knotted_tentacle) will become separate independent concepts with nothing to tie them all together.
Of course, that will not stop people from mistagging knot on dildos and tentacles.

thegreatwolfgang said:
I don't understand the issue you are trying to raise say here. I'm not redefining it to mean anything lumpy, bulbous, or ball-like.
The definition of knot will mostly stay the same, but will now become an umbrella tag to encompass other stuff like knotted_dildo, knotted_tentacle, etc.

If knot were to be aliased to knotted_penis, then the other tags (i.e., knotted_dildo, knotted_tentacle) will become separate independent concepts with nothing to tie them all together.
Of course, that will not stop people from mistagging knot on dildos and tentacles.

I can see an argument for including knotted dildos, since most dildos are made to resemble penises. But a knotted tentacle would basically be a tentacle with bumps since a knot is just a bulbous lump. Looking at posts tagged as knotted_tentacle, though, it seems to be referring to tentacles that have penises at the end, making it more like a knotted penis that happens to be on the end of a tentacle. But to me, a knotted tentacle would include things like
post #4638914 post #2026331
since they have a knot-like structure on a tentacle.

watsit said:
I can see an argument for including knotted dildos, since most dildos are made to resemble penises. But a knotted tentacle would basically be a tentacle with bumps since a knot is just a bulbous lump. Looking at posts tagged as knotted_tentacle, though, it seems to be referring to tentacles that have penises at the end, making it more like a knotted penis that happens to be on the end of a tentacle. But to me, a knotted tentacle would include things like
post #4638914 post #2026331
since they have a knot-like structure on a tentacle.

I think ideally knotted_tentacle would imply penis_tentacles. However, you wouldn't be able to always see the penis portion of the tentacle, but know that there is penetration occurring.
While I would highly doubt people would begin tagging knot on the two given examples, they should really be tagged with ovipositor/tentacle_bulge and tentacle_maw respectively.

For tentacles that look bulbous like a sounding_rod or anal_beads (and isn't an ovipositor), then something like ribbed_tentacle could be used.
For tentacles that feature an nondescript/non-petal-like bulb at the end, then something like tentacle_bulb could be used.

thegreatwolfgang said:
While I would highly doubt people would begin tagging knot on the two given examples, they should really be tagged with ovipositor/tentacle_bulge and tentacle_maw respectively.

I don't think I've ever heard the flower buds at the end of a bulbasaur's vines be referred to as tentacle_maw

dba_afish said:
I don't think I've ever heard the flower buds at the end of a bulbasaur's vines be referred to as tentacle_maw

I doubt it has been referred to as a knot as well. Back to the point though, I might be mistaking it for something else (with bulbs that could open up).

If it does open up like a tentacle_maw, the wiki states: "A tentacle with an opening on the end which has several triangular petal-like flaps that, when it's open, make it look somewhat like a starfish or similarly shaped flower. Can look a lot like a flower bud on the end of the tentacle when it's closed, but can still be tagged if several of the lines where the flaps/petals meet are still recognizable. Note: If the maw is open, it can also be tagged with open_maw."
If it doesn't really open up or resembles more of a flower bulb instead, then tentacle_bulb would be more appropriate.

I approved the original BUR because I really do think we should make some accommodation in the knot tag structure for knotted dildos, considering how common they are, and with it consequently being fairly common to find knot and knotting mistags on knotted_dildo posts.

As for the rest of the BUR, I'm open to go either way. I don't inherently have any objections, but I will leave it up for some time to gather feedback and criticism before moving forward. The only note I have is that knottled_tentacle, if we do keep that as a tag, should be reserved for specifically phallic tentacles and should probably be made to imply penis_tentacles so that the original meaning of knot is not lost on simply lumpy tentacles.

thegreatwolfgang said:
I think ideally knotted_tentacle would imply penis_tentacles. However, you wouldn't be able to always see the penis portion of the tentacle, but know that there is penetration occurring.

The issue to me is that it's misappropriating what the knot is part of. Calling a knotted penis on a tentacle a tentacle_knot is like calling a knotted penis on a tail a tail_knot. It's still a knotted_penis in all cases, which just happens to be on a tentacle or tail or something, but calling it a knotted_tentacle opens the door to ambiguity when it's lumps without a clear penis shape (also, penises can have multiple knots, so why can't tentacles like in my first example?). Calling it knotted_tentacle_penis would help clarify that issue, but is that a precedent we want to set where we combine the placement and features of the penis into one tag? flared_hair_penis, medial_ringed_hybrid_nipple_penis, etc...

watsit said:
The issue to me is that it's misappropriating what the knot is part of. Calling a knotted penis on a tentacle a tentacle_knot is like calling a knotted penis on a tail a tail_knot. It's still a knotted_penis in all cases, which just happens to be on a tentacle or tail or something, but calling it a knotted_tentacle opens the door to ambiguity when it's lumps without a clear penis shape (also, penises can have multiple knots, so why can't tentacles like in my first example?). Calling it knotted_tentacle_penis would help clarify that issue, but is that a precedent we want to set where we combine the placement and features of the penis into one tag? flared_hair_penis, medial_ringed_hybrid_nipple_penis, etc...

What if the entire knotted_tentacle idea was scrapped and replaced with existing *_penis tags?
I'm sure cases like tail_penis or penis_tongue are still tagged with their respective penis types (like humanoid_penis or knotted_penis).
Thus, in cases where there are actual knotted penis_tentacles, people would just tag penis_tentacle knotted_penis instead.

Knotted_tentacle seems fine to me. It's short, sweet, and intuitive to people who would be interested. Currently it's a small tag and it's not been misused.

Bumping this for further discussion and to hopefully streamline the approval of this BUR since it is pretty straightforward.

I have removed the knotted_tentacle/tentacle_knotting implications for now since they seem to be the only problem people have with this BUR.
It will probably be brought back in a Part 3 if consensus could be reached, alongside the other remaining knot tags I mentioned in my Topics to be Discussed section.

Topics to be Discussed

1) Should knot be disambiguated or are mistags negligible (e.g., rope_knot mistags)?
2) Should knotting imply penetration (see topic #17331) or is it redundant (consider using existing *_penetration implications)?
3) Should other *_knot tags (such as sitting_on_knot, hand_on_knot, color_knot, etc.) be expanded to include non-penile knots?
4) Should non-canine_knot be considered valid and included? It was seemingly made for blacklisting purposes.
5) Should knot_fucking, knot_in_sheath, knotted_condom, stuck_knot, knotted_glory_hole imply knot or knotted_penis or knotting?
6) Should knotted_tentacle/tentacle_knotting be kept or substituted with existing tags (e.g., penile_tentacle knotted_penis)?

1) I don't have a strong opinion. It might be confusing for people who have never encountered the term, but it's otherwise very well established.
2) It has to be penetrated to be knotted, so I'd vote yes.
3) No opinion.
4) Fossa and vasa parrots have knotted penises. I'm sure there are other examples as well, and that's not getting into fantasy cocks.
5) knot_fucking should, knot_in_sheath is an odd one- it's closer to a 'bulge' except like. Through skin instead of pants. stuck_knot doesn't inherently show the knot itself.
6) Yeah I see no issue with it existing.

thegreatwolfgang said:

• 1) Should knot be disambiguated or are mistags negligible (e.g., rope_knot mistags)?
• 2) Should knotting imply penetration (see topic #17331) or is it redundant (consider using existing *_penetration implications)?
• 3) Should other *_knot tags (such as sitting_on_knot, hand_on_knot, color_knot, etc.) be expanded to include non-penile knots?
• 4) Should non-canine_knot be considered valid and included? It was seemingly made for blacklisting purposes.
• 5) Should knot_fucking, knot_in_sheath, knotted_condom, stuck_knot, knotted_glory_hole imply knot or knotted_penis or knotting?
• 6) Should knotted_tentacle/tentacle_knotting be kept or substituted with existing tags (e.g., penile_tentacle knotted_penis)?

1) I don't think it needs a disambiguation, unless enough people think otherwise. I haven't seen much mistagging for rope knots.
2) Implying penetration makes sense. Knotting is a particular form of penetration where the knot holds inside the penetrated character, which *_penetration tags don't convey.
3) If knot can apply to dildos, it would make sense for other *_knot tags as well.
4) I don't think so. Some non-canines have knots (fossa_penis), and hybrid knotted penises are somewhat common, before getting into fully fantasy/made-up knotted penis designs.
5) knot_fucking shouldn't imply knotting, they're not the same (knot_fucking is when the knot keeps going in an out rhythmically, knotting is when the knot goes in and stays in). It can imply knot though, unless it's sex-only where it can imply knotted_penis. Would a character masturbating with a knotted dildo, continually pushing the knot in and pulling it back out, be considered knot_fucking? "Fucking" typically indicates sex, not masturbation, but masturbating with a knotted dildo in such a way could be a worthy thing to tag, though I don't think it needs separate tags. knot_in_sheath can imply knotted_penis (it already implies knot), unless dildos can have a sheath too? knotted_condom and stuck_knot can imply knot, since they can apply to dildos (and knot_stuck could apply to non-penetration, e.g. a knot stuck in a glory hole).
6) tentacle_penis knotted_penis seems better and more expandable to me. knotted_tentacle and tentacle_knotting are too ambiguous as referring to a tentacle with bulbous lump(s), rather than the knotted-penis-on-a-tenctacle it seems intended for. Especially if knotted-penis-on-a-tail/tongue/hair/etc would also have similar tags.

regsmutt said:
2) It has to be penetrated to be knotted, so I'd vote yes.

watsit said:
2) Implying penetration makes sense. Knotting is a particular form of penetration where the knot holds inside the penetrated character, which *_penetration tags don't convey.

By redundancy, I mean existing tags like vaginal_knotting would already have vaginal_penetration (and subsequently penetration) applied to it.

If the base knotting tag were to imply penetration, consider cases like object_penetration or food_penetration that may or may not be strictly considered as penetration.
E.g., Knotting a condom, cock_ring, glory_hole, pumpkin, etc.

I guess this is more of a question of whether knotting should include non-character objects.
Currently, penetration seems to be reserved for character-on-character actions, but tags like object_penetration/food_penetration (e.g., penis in fleshlight) are stuck in a limbo state.

regsmutt said:
4) Fossa and vasa parrots have knotted penises. I'm sure there are other examples as well, and that's not getting into fantasy cocks.

watsit said:
4) I don't think so. Some non-canines have knots (fossa_penis), and hybrid knotted penises are somewhat common, before getting into fully fantasy/made-up knotted penis designs.

I believe non-canine_knot was made to substitute the searching/blacklisting function that knotted_canine_penis could have provided.
However, since the latter tag is not tagged by default, non-canine_knot is used to encompass every other knotted (and hybrid) penises found under knotted_penis.

In this case, since fossas are non-canines and can have knotted penises, would bringing back knotted_canine_penis be justified?

regsmutt said:
5) knot_fucking should, knot_in_sheath is an odd one- it's closer to a 'bulge' except like. Through skin instead of pants. stuck_knot doesn't inherently show the knot itself.

watsit said:
5) knot_fucking shouldn't imply knotting, they're not the same (knot_fucking is when the knot keeps going in an out rhythmically, knotting is when the knot goes in and stays in). It can imply knot though, unless it's sex-only where it can imply knotted_penis. Would a character masturbating with a knotted dildo, continually pushing the knot in and pulling it back out, be considered knot_fucking? "Fucking" typically indicates sex, not masturbation, but masturbating with a knotted dildo in such a way could be a worthy thing to tag, though I don't think it needs separate tags. knot_in_sheath can imply knotted_penis (it already implies knot), unless dildos can have a sheath too? knotted_condom and stuck_knot can imply knot, since they can apply to dildos (and knot_stuck could apply to non-penetration, e.g. a knot stuck in a glory hole).

• knot_fucking seems to be in a weird state here, but since knotting is for cases where you can't easily pull back out, that leaves the possible implication of knot or knotted_penis.
• We could imply knot to expand the definition to include toys, or imply knotted_penis if we want it to be strictly penile.
• knot_in_sheath could imply knotted_penis, but I feel that there could be cases where the penis_tip is not exposed or obscured which would disqualify it from being tagged with penis.
• We could imply knot to play it safe. However, would people be opposed with obscured knots being included?
• Additional considerations for another character's knot/toy being docked inside someone's sheath (sheath_knotting?) and knots inside clothing (knot_outline?).
• knotted_condom could imply knot then if we are going expand the definition to include toys. Reminder to exclude mentions of knotting from the wiki.
• stuck_knot could be implied/unseen, but stuck_penis would be a more appropriate tag in that case. If stuck_knot is going to include toys, then it cannot imply stuck_penis.

thegreatwolfgang said:
If the base knotting tag were to imply penetration, consider cases like object_penetration or food_penetration that may or may not be strictly considered as penetration.
E.g., Knotting a condom, cock_ring, glory_hole, pumpkin, etc.

I'm not sure I'd consider those knotting or penetration. We don't say a penis in a condom or cock ring is penile_penetration, so a knot in a condom or cock ring shouldn't be knotting, and the same for a glory hole. Maybe penetration/knotting could apply to a pumpkin, but I don't think it should apply to all food or objects (e.g. it shouldn't apply to a cake as it's crumbly/soft and doesn't really "hold" the knot/penis/dildo in place, or a piece of cardboard which is similar to a wall (or effectively one if it's big enough). Slight tangent, but the object tags in general always seemed weird to me since "object" is such a generic thing that can technically apply to anything in an image. A brick, a glass window, and a blade of grass are objects. It's really unclear what's supposed to apply for the object tags and what makes it useful.

thegreatwolfgang said:
I believe non-canine_knot was made to substitute the searching/blacklisting function that knotted_canine_penis could have provided.
However, since the latter tag is not tagged by default, non-canine_knot is used to encompass every other knotted (and hybrid) penises found under knotted_penis.

In this case, since fossas are non-canines and can have knotted penises, would bringing back knotted_canine_penis be justified?

There's quite a few posts tagged canine_penis that are missing the knot tag despite it being fully visible. I wonder how many true instances of "canine_penis -knot" there are. If people regularly neglect knot despite being clearly visible, I don't think a non-canine_knot tag or bringing back knotted_canine_penis will really help matters there.

thegreatwolfgang said:

• knot_in_sheath could imply knotted_penis, but I feel that there could be cases where the penis_tip is not exposed or obscured which would disqualify it from being tagged with penis.
• We could imply knot to play it safe. However, would people be opposed with obscured knots being included?
• Additional considerations for another character's knot/toy being docked inside someone's sheath (sheath_knotting?) and knots inside clothing (knot_outline?).

knot_in_sheath used to imply knot since 10 years ago (implication #2679) but the implication was removed 3 months ago (topic #39924) with a BUR that only has two upvotes and one reply. That seems like something that should be reconsidered, as there are other cases like erection_under_clothing that imply erection even if you can't see the erection directly, but the shape of the clothing makes it clear there is one; the same could be said for a knot_in_sheath where the shape of the sheath makes it clear there's a knot even if you can't see it directly. In contrast, a crotch bulge can be small enough that you can't actually tell if it's supposed to be or caused by a penis or balls or not, so keeping those separate makes sense.

thegreatwolfgang said:

• stuck_knot could be implied/unseen, but stuck_penis would be a more appropriate tag in that case. If stuck_knot is going to include toys, then it cannot imply stuck_penis.

Yeah, if you can't see a knot, how can you tell it's a knot that caused the penis or dildo to be stuck?

watsit said:
I'm not sure I'd consider those knotting or penetration. We don't say a penis in a condom or cock ring is penile_penetration, so a knot in a condom or cock ring shouldn't be knotting, and the same for a glory hole. Maybe penetration/knotting could apply to a pumpkin, but I don't think it should apply to all food or objects (e.g. it shouldn't apply to a cake as it's crumbly/soft and doesn't really "hold" the knot/penis/dildo in place, or a piece of cardboard which is similar to a wall (or effectively one if it's big enough). Slight tangent, but the object tags in general always seemed weird to me since "object" is such a generic thing that can technically apply to anything in an image. A brick, a glass window, and a blade of grass are objects. It's really unclear what's supposed to apply for the object tags and what makes it useful.

I'd be inclined to agree that knotting should not apply to cases where penetration could not be tagged cleanly.
However, there are cases like penetrable_sex_toy, breeding_mount, or even just sex_doll that look like they would be tagged with penetration.

On the other hand, there is also cases of "externally-induced" knottings, such as when someone grabs the back end of the knot or slips on something tight (e.g., cock ring, condom) that causes the knot to swell.
Technically, it wouldn't be penetration but it does sound like it could be fall under knotting (and be mistagged as such).

There's quite a few posts tagged canine_penis that are missing the knot tag despite it being fully visible. I wonder how many true instances of "canine_penis -knot" there are. If people regularly neglect knot despite being clearly visible, I don't think a non-canine_knot tag or bringing back knotted_canine_penis will really help matters there.

I guess it wouldn't really help to create a new tag when people neglect tagging knot to begin with.

knot_in_sheath used to imply knot since 10 years ago (implication #2679) but the implication was removed 3 months ago (topic #39924) with a BUR that only has two upvotes and one reply. That seems like something that should be reconsidered, as there are other cases like erection_under_clothing that imply erection even if you can't see the erection directly, but the shape of the clothing makes it clear there is one; the same could be said for a knot_in_sheath where the shape of the sheath makes it clear there's a knot even if you can't see it directly. In contrast, a crotch bulge can be small enough that you can't actually tell if it's supposed to be or caused by a penis or balls or not, so keeping those separate makes sense.

Yeah, I think that needs to be reconsidered since we have a new knotted_penis tag now.
A knot_in_sheath is still visibly a knot, but not a knotted_penis outright.

Yeah, if you can't see a knot, how can you tell it's a knot that caused the penis or dildo to be stuck?

I believe @regsmutt was referring to contextual cues like a rope_knot speech_bubble, knot_outline in the abdomen, or simply just the visible tail end of a stuck canine_penis.
I feel that, at the very least, a knot_outline should be visible for it to be tagged with knot/knotted_penis.

post #2550037 post #3258707 post #4613805

I would have suggested for stuck_knot to imply knotting, but the wiki mentioned knotted_glory_hole which may indicate the possibility of stuck knots on objects.