Ok so appearently the thing about yesterday escalated, im honestly at a loss for words, because this guy is freaking out so much.

namelessdragon72 Said:
so I'm guessing that your this 'Scakk' that stole my artwork and uploaded it for your own benefits. just to let you know I'm not as forgiving as Thundah Jolt, and seeing your account banned on e621 would please me soo. so unless you want to put me through the grueling task of me making an account to complain to the admins, I believe it would be in your best interest to remove all related art of mine. have a nice day now.

Scakk Said:
How was i stealing your art?
It's not very nice to make assumptions like that.

namelessdragon72 Said:
uploading it to another website without my permission or notification perhaps.

namelessdragon72 Said:
it's not very nice to steal peoples artwork.

Scakk Said:
That isn't stealing.
Credit is given to the artist, and characters and such are tagged.
I wasn't claiming any of it to be mine.
Rarely do the Artists or Character Owners actually upload the art themselves.

namelessdragon72 Said:
the fact that you don't find anything wrong with that is disturbing.
and yes that is considered stealing under the digital Millennium copyright act, and it would be appreciated if it was removed.

So yea apparently i'm either going to have my upload limit go far into the negatives for the 2nd time in less than a month or so, or i'm going to be banned from e6 for "stealing".

Also here's the other conversation i had with Thundah_Jolt:

Scakk Said:
i'm sorry if you're mad that i posted some stuff, but the note you sent me was a little confusing

Thundah_Jolt Said:
Very upset; I posted that stuff because I wanted it seen on here-- I don't appreciate you posting it without my permission on e621.

People are able to steal and use the art as their own on Tumblr without me knowing about it, that's what that note was about.

Scakk Said:
You'd be surprised at how many people use the Source thing when going to an image.
and no one on e6 takes credit for stuff that isn' theirs, if someone does its usually taken down

Thundah_Jolt Said:
Yes, but you still did it without my permission T_T

Scakk Said:
Well if i had known you'd be so upset i'd ask x-x
99% of the time people have no problems ;-;

Thundah_Jolt Said:
Well damn dude, I'm that 1% who wants to post the art himself.

Scakk Said:
If that's what you want to to do then I won't upload anymore.

So I guess it's up to the Admins or whatever on what to do, because i'd rather not get into some debate over this on stuff i don't know about.

https://www.furaffinity.net/journal/7071364

*Sigh*
and I thought Mondays were bad.

why dont you just remove it?

Thundah_Jolt seems to be the more reasonable person here- compared to namelessdragon72. I don't see how posting the artist's work and giving that said artist credit and source of work is considered stealing. Did he know about e6 before he talked to you? and how long? He should've requested his name to be on the DNP list- depending on how long he's known about this site and how long he's known about his artwork here.

As for permission, I honestly think it doesn't hurt to ask for permission, but I don't think it's mandatory- unless it's money related. And to be honest, nameless was talking to you as if you were making money off of posting his work here, while giving him credit.

(If anything I posted here is wrong/incorrect, please tell me. I appreciate constructive criticism, plus I only know the basics of DCMA)

Dragonlayer said:
why dont you just remove it?

I don't own the art, so it isnt my place to decide what is and isn't taken down.

Also, TBH, i'd prefer if they weren't...but again, that's for admins to decide.

Shit, son...

Scakk said:
I don't own the art

but you're the uploader

Dragonlayer said:
but you're the uploader

That doesn't mean the uploader owns the art. This is an archiving site; most of the uploaders have no connection to the art they upload aside from "I saw this and wanted to share it". Artists are given credit with source links and artist tags at the very top of the tag list on each post.

Some artists upload their own work, like myself, but it's not a common occurrence, I've noticed. Lots of artists seem to be misinformed as to the purpose of this site as well.

Dragonlayer said:
but you're the uploader

Uploaders can request removal within 48h, but beyond that is unlikely. Once a post is approved deletions generally only happen after DNP/takedowns, which the uploader cannot do (exception is if the uploader is the artist, character owner, or has proof of transferred rights to the work).

Kida said:
That doesn't mean the uploader owns the art.

i should've been more specific. I thought the uploader had the power to remove his uploads past 48h. Then the OP could've just removed it and this drama

Scakk said:
Here's a recent note Thundah_Jolt sent me:

Wait, so he fervently approves of reposting in that note but totally doesn't approve in the journal you quoted in the OP?

Idungetit. What's going on here? :/

Even if asking for permission isn't mandatory, it's a nice courtesy. You may have more success just by asking them than if you were to post something and they see it afterward. Not everyone operates under the same mindset.

Ratte said:
Even if asking for permission isn't mandatory, it's a nice courtesy. You may have more success just by asking them than if you were to post something and they see it afterward. Not everyone operates under the same mindset.

Yeah I agree. Should've put that in my initial post if I thought of it like that.

Scakk said:
Here's a recent note Thundah_Jolt sent me:

Thundah_Jolt Said:
Oh yeah. That is totally fine with me, just as long as everything is tagged correctly. I like it when people post my stuff there. I do have an account, but prefer to keep it anonymous. Occasionally, I upload something or fix/add tags.

Actually, I encourage postings on e621. It is a great resource for finding new artists and characters! If anything you post which is mine, gets removed, talk to me. I have full right to decide if my commissions go up there or not.

So there we go!

Produce me a screenshot of that note (unedited and including whatever you said beforehand) and I'll restore the full hit the inevitable takedown request will cause to your upload limit.

Edit: We also don't ban people just because someone is flinging proverbial dung around so don't worry about that. We don't even hand out records for images that get deleted and aren't on the DNP list.

NotMeNotYou said:

Produce me a screenshot of that note (unedited and including whatever you said beforehand) and I'll restore the full hit the inevitable takedown request will cause to your upload limit.

Edit: We also don't ban people just because someone is flinging proverbial dung around so don't worry about that. We don't even hand out records for images that get deleted and aren't on the DNP list.

I had given a link to it at the bottom of the post

Edit:
NVM, i actually jsut realized it was a completely different person who sent me the note, which was Sulfer.

I'll delete that out

Scakk said:
I had given a link to it at the bottom of the post

Edit:
NVM, i actually jsut realized it was a completely different person who sent me the note, which was Sulfer.

I'll delete that out

so not sure about the 1 or 2 pics that include Sulfer and Thundah_Jolt together.

Oy... Bad Luck Scakk.

At least the Admins are being understanding with you.

Thundah_Jolt Said:
Yes, but you still did it without my permission T_T

Well if i had known you'd be so upset i'd ask x-x

I'm fairly certain I said this last time too, but I'm going to say it again, sorry if I sound like a broken record.

ASK FOR PERMISSION FIRST. Do NOT say "I would have asked if I knew you were going to get upset." That's placing the blame on the artist, who might well be overreacting, but otherwise doing nothing wrong. It's best to just ASSUME the artist is going to get upset first instead of WAITING for them to get upset and you getting punished.

Think of it this way, what's worse? Asking an artist if it's ok to post their artwork and getting a "no?" Or Posting their work and having them get upset at you and lowering your upload limit again?

Asking for permission is not mandatory obviously, but it does two things
1: Keeps artists from getting mad at you and issuing take down requests that drop your upload limit into the negatives.
2: Gives artists a positive view of e621 which is very important to the community as a whole.

Just don't upload, use time to fap. Probelm solved.

Rustyy said:
Just don't upload, use time to fap. Probelm solved.

This. Everyone's too polite to say it, but the artists that sperg about other people posting their stuff are always mediocre to shit-tier talent. Post some art that's actually good or don't post at all.

Tokaido said:
ASK FOR PERMISSION FIRST. Do NOT say "I would have asked if I knew you were going to get upset."

Problem is, there shouldn't even be the need to ask artists to upload and distribute their art in the first place. Artists obviously draw to share with people, and as far as I noticed over the years, people who tend to whine over their precious pictures being distributed elsewhere are people who tend to care more about views on their gallerie(s) and having the total control over the comments section in case of some very mean comment pops up.

I am not going to ask the 5 different artists I am willing to use my time today to promote them for free because I like their art and wish for these to gain more attention, having to potentially wait days just to get an answer, or simply the fact that 90% of what I upload is from Pixiv anyway, and my Japanese is terrible despite my nickname

Neitsuke said:
Problem is, there shouldn't even be the need to ask artists to upload and distribute their art in the first place. Artists obviously draw to share with people, and as far as I noticed over the years, people who tend to whine over their precious pictures being distributed elsewhere are people who tend to care more about views on their gallerie(s) and having the total control over the comments section in case of some very mean comment pops up.

I am not going to ask the 5 different artists I am willing to use my time today to promote them for free because I like their art and wish for these to gain more attention, having to potentially wait days just to get an answer, or simply the fact that 90% of what I upload is from Pixiv anyway, and my Japanese is terrible despite my nickname

...no, artists do not draw to share their art. some do but many dont. many artists draw for themselves and they just choose to let others enjoy their work too. the art is not always made to entertain the viewer. its their skill, its their work so its their decision where their art is posted. and if artists can spend days, weeks or even months on drawing something, you can spend few days waiting for their response. if they dont respond, then dont post their art. and there are plenty of people who can speak english and japanese, just ask them to write you a stock message you can send for artist to obtain their permission.

seriously i do not know how many times i have to tell this you but art does not exists to solely to entertain art consumers. most artists make the art for themselves. not for you. they just choose to let you to enjoy it too. this does not mean that you have suddenly full power to decide what happens to the art and that artists who just wish you to treat their art like art and their wishes regarding their own work like reasonable human being are whiny bitches. there are some artists who make art only to entertain others but this does not mean that you should assume that everyone is like this.

Neitsuke said:

I am not going to ask the 5 different artists I am willing to use my time today to promote them for free because I like their art and wish for these to gain more attention, having to potentially wait days just to get an answer,

I myself, have asked a bunch of artists and they've replied to me within a day. It's not very hard to ask for permission. Even when I take the extra effort in asking the commissioners, they too usually reply within a couple of days, but not for a small of amount of them who ignored.

The artist should have full control over the post, just because they've posted it, doesn't mean it's free to redistribute. For example, you post a selfie photo of you and your friend/partner/family on Facebook, then some random guy took the photo and posted it somewhere else, where it would either be complemented on or be struck with rude and absurd comments.

Even though I don't have any connection to the posts that I repost here on e621, I still get ticked off from stupid comments meant to destroy or humiliate the artist and/or characters that may be present.

Mutisija said:
...no, artists do not draw to share their art. some do but many dont. many artists draw for themselves and they just choose to let others enjoy their work too. the art is not always made to entertain the viewer. its their skill, its their work so its their decision where their art is posted. and if artists can spend days, weeks or even months on drawing something, you can spend few days waiting for their response. if they dont respond, then dont post their art. and there are plenty of people who can speak english and japanese, just ask them to write you a stock message you can send for artist to obtain their permission.

This here.

People are all different. While some may post for entertainment, there are plenty people who may post work just to have some sort of portfolio or backup of their work should an original be destroyed or a hard drive fail. Even then, they are the creator of the work and thus have the final say in the means of distribution. Granted, some people do come off poorly/emotionally in response, but this can be circumvented by asking first. Sometimes you may change opinion just by asking permission before acting.

Personally I make work with the primary intent of getting my ideas out in a visual medium. I have characters to illustrate and stories to tell. I am just nice enough to share those works with followers while I am by no means obligated to do so. I could very well keep my work private, which I did for a long time. There are plenty of others who take a similar approach. Even if you don't like it (or any other approach), it should still be respected. They still post their work somewhere and allow you to enjoy it if you see it. That it isn't here on a specific site shouldn't matter to you or anyone else as much as it does. In the end, they made it, not you. They get full control of their creation, not you.

Taking a couple minutes to send a note or email to someone asking to distribute their work here pales in comparison both to the time put into the art as well as the adverse response you are more likely to get by ignoring the artist. We are people, just like you, and deserve to be treated as such. We are not art-producing factories put here for the sole purpose of your entertainment. If you still get a 'no' then it is up to you to respect it. Whether you like it or not is irrelevant.

What I understand is you need to obtain permission or find a note from artists saying they don't mind uploading to other sites. Except (in practice) for Japanese artists, who will likely never see or care... but only after 2 years for published dojinshi.

Copyright infringement isn't "stealing", but you can forgive artists for using that word. Your conversation with namelessdragon72 would have been shorter if you had acknowledged wrongdoing and apologized.

Since the artist is asking you to delete it and you technically can't, the solution should be to add the artist to the DNP list and then flag the images. Is there a formal process for this?

I get it that everyone is different and most of the people don't get a mean comment lightly and how easy it is to ask for permission. The fact remains the same that they uploaded their pictures on a public gallery, usually intending that they're willing to share their work with others, and that here is why I don't ask for permission because of how not necessary it is.

A selfie is and is based on personal real life while a picture is made from your imagination, there's nothing comparable here. Also that backup "excuse" does sound kind of, apologist Actually thought that literally meant "Someone who always gives excuses, oops, because if that was truly the case, there's plenty of other ways to backup your work, USB keys, CDs, you name them.

It all comes to artist that don't like their art to be redistributed for reasons that all have to be about control over their work and maintain it. While I know there's nothing wrong about that, the fact they get all whiny because people take their time to give them more spotlight is beyond me.

many artists draw for themselves and they just choose to let others enjoy their work too

That's one of the biggest contradiction I have seen in the same sentence

Ok guys, none of the art has been taken down and I got a note from Namelessdragon about it, so its all fine now.

Neitsuke said:

A selfie is and is based on personal real life while a
picture is made from your imagination, there's
nothing comparable here.

I'm trying to make a point here on personal art issues, some were created between 2(or more) fursonas of the artist and/or partner/friend. Although not common, there's still char. owners out there that take artwork containing their characters very seriously and personally.

They may want to keep it private and only shown on familiar groud(i.e. their own galleries within their control) and that is when asking for permission comes in useful, to avoid posting sensitive material that they feel doesn't need to be spread around. Maybe the artist drew an intimate moment between his/her partner and then suddenly, someone shines a bright spotlight on them and tells everybody to look at them.

Also, bear in mind that this is not the single only reason why they may not want their artworks to be reposted elsewhere.

TheGreatWolfgang said:
They may want to keep it private and only shown on familiar groud(i.e. their own galleries within their control) and that is when asking for permission comes in useful, to avoid posting sensitive material that they feel doesn't need to be spread around.

Not saying you shouldn't ask for permission, but in that particular case the artist would be better of to post at a site that allows selective viewing, e.g. only friends, groups etc.

Scakk said:
Ok guys, none of the art has been taken down and I got a note from Namelessdragon about it, so its all fine now.

Yay! I helped.

Anyhoo, on the topics of art, art sharing, artists rights, and so on... Well, it's a complicated subject, but then, what isn't?

I guess I sort of feel this way: I sometimes share people's art without their permission, admittedly. I do try to judge what a person is okay with and what they aren't, but, I could be better about directly asking about that sort of thing.

On the other hand, speaking as both someone who has created content and someone who has shared it, there is also a certain amount that an artist can do to make this sort of thing easier as well. If an artist feels very strongly about how their art should and shouldn't be used, and the way they feel is "out of the norm" for how most people feel about their art, I think it is reasonable to say that it would be beneficial for everyone involved if they were clear about that.

Say, on images, or on their profile, having a disclaimer of "I really don't like it when people do X with my art", or "I'm picky about where my art goes - please ask first", and so on.

Now, I'm not saying that's mandatory. Just like asking permission isn't mandatory. But in both cases it is one of the best things that you can do, and it can solve a lot of issues before they become issues.

When I see on the description on each picture on certain galleries that clearly states "DO NOT REPOST MY STUFF" I of course follow the artist's "wish" and don't bother with the gallery anymore, but for any other public galleries, my default state is "The artist is fine and willing to share his content with others publicly. There's a picture that I actually really like from him and I want to share it with others the nice stuff he's doing, no reason why he would get butthurt over that"

One other detail I forgot to mention why people don't want their art redistributed is this big paranoia of art theft. While that reason is at least understandable here, that is only punishing to the people who care about your pictures and want to share them with others, and the artist themselves for closing any new potential spotlight for new fans, while the art thefts won't care about that at all and will continue to do evil stuff

Neitsuke said:
That's one of the biggest contradiction I have seen in the same sentence

That isn't a contradiction.
Someone allowing you to view something doesn't equal that he wants you to spread it further. That is in the same vein of someone saying something to you and then you telling it everyone else.
Sure, you can argue that he told it to you in a public setting, but is it really in good spirit to then put it on a billboard and tell it everyone?

It might be okay, it might not be okay, only the original source can tell you that.

Also, your intentions may be noble, but what is if the artist doesn't care about the spotlight? What if he believes it's the wrong kind of spotlight?
It's not up to you to decide what is best for the artist or their creations.

NotMeNotYou said:
Sure, you can argue that he told it to you in a public setting, but is it really in good spirit to then put it on a billboard and tell it everyone?

That's a terrible analogy. A better analogy would be if they put up it on a billboard themselves. And then they lose their shit when someone puts it up on a billboard across the street.

These artists have no social prerogative to do what they do. Just a legal one. And a thin one at that.

I do know that they have the total right to put themselves on the DNP list, I never said they don't, but the whole premise of an artist being fine to upload his work on a public gallery but loses his mind when it is being shared on other location is pretty dumb and ridiculous. I myself don't care about having any spotlight for the little stuff I decided to create, I don't get butthurt because someone decided to post it somewhere else on his Tumblr or anywhere else, in fact I don't even care at all if they don't source me at all, as long they don't claim to be the artist or post them on their own gallery, but even if that would happen I would pretty much don't care at all.

To me, it just resorts to some artists being too scared of losing control over their pictures because someone once in a while posts a dumb comment or attempt to art theft, or losing their mind because the picture is seen more often somewhere else than their main gallery and concludes that reposting stuff everywhere else equals less of this important traffic over your main gallery

There's no need for analogies or to guess what the artists are thinking. Copyright law is real, and e621's administration has chosen to respect the letter of the law.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_Copyright_Infringement_Liability_Limitation_Act