Fuck. You. F-list.

In the ass.

With a rake.

Studded with nails.

Doused in gasoline.

AND LIT ON FIRE.

Whoever is running that fucking site needs to get their fucking users BACK INTO LINE.

First, we had Strype request all his art be removed from e621 because those self-centered douchecanoe RPers on F-list don't know the meaning of "MAKE YOUR OWN DAMN FURSONA, STOP STEALING OTHER PEOPLE'S WORK AND PORTRAYING IT AS YOUR OWN".

Now, we've lost Wyntersun's art as well.

WYNTERSUN, for fuck's sake!

No!

NO!

NO!!

I am ready to go full Yandere-Simulator Markiplier on these bastards!

YOU F-LIST FUCKERS DO NOT MESS WITH MY WYNTERSUN-SENPAI!!

I can only guess at how many other artists have requested their art removed over this bullshit. THIS, NEEDS, TO STOP.

I don't care how they do it-- banning users, removing their RP content, WHATEVER-- but F-list better drill it into their users' thick skulls that THEY DO NOT GET TO STEAL ANY ARTIST'S WORKS OFF THIS SITE AND CLAIM THEM AS THEIR OWN CHARACTER, OR WHATEVER THE HELL THEY DO OVER THERE. We tag art with its creator's name for a REASON: IT BELONGS TO THEM. YOU DO NOT GET TO JUST FUCKING TAKE IT FOR YOURSELF!!

FUCK!!

(ノಥ益ಥ)ノ彡┻━┻

</tirade>

Dude, calm down. If you want them to take action, try messaging the admins on F-list and asking them to increase the enforcement, maybe apply a rule against using artwork from E621.

Also: We do not tag the character's creator. We only tag the artist.

We do tag the character's owner, don't we? It's included as a suffix if it's a common enough name.

character_(owner)

Knotty_Curls said:
We do tag the character's owner, don't we?

Sporadically.

Knotty_Curls said:
We do tag the character's owner, don't we? It's included as a suffix if it's a common enough name.

character_(owner)

Only in such a situation. We prefer to use last names or unique names, only using the owner/creator if we only have a first name that's common.

Surprise to everybody: We actually share admins with F-List. This also isn't F-List's fault.

The people who use art that doesn't belong to them just take their art wherever they can get it from, and we just offer the simplest way so most complaints come from here.

So, the artists see e6 as the cause, even though we're barely a symptom, and will just substituted with any of the other places that don't care about copyright and rip FA or whatever.

The_Masked_Newfag said:
Fuck. You. F-list.

In the ass.

With a rake.

Studded with nails.

Doused in gasoline.

AND LIT ON FIRE.

that could have been shortened by using 4 words instead: with a flaming cactus

Just go to where they post it. It isn't hard.

NotMeNotYou said:
Surprise to everybody: We actually share admins with F-List. This also isn't F-List's fault.

The people who use art that doesn't belong to them just take their art wherever they can get it from, and we just offer the simplest way so most complaints come from here.

So, the artists see e6 as the cause, even though we're barely a symptom, and will just substituted with any of the other places that don't care about copyright and rip FA or whatever.

I'm aware that e621 and F-list are both run by Dragonfruit, but I'm in no way familiar with ALL of the admins on this site.

If e621 and F-list do indeed share admins-- better yet, if they're both owned by the same company-- then why in God's name aren't the rules regarding copyright on e621 also applied to F-list?? Why not just let them ask for that content to be removed from F-list over here? Why not just provide a takedown form on e621 for artists to request that their art not be allowed for use on F-list for RP'ing (specifically, for whatever it is people are doing with it that constitutes intellectual property theft or art theft)?

Back when Strype requested his art be taken down, I went to the F-list site to look for a report button, and found nothing of the sort. The "help" button on F-list just directed me to their wikifur site, which when I searched "art theft" (as in how to report it), the most I got were a few pages which made, at most, a cursory passing reference to art theft when listing criteria for reporting an F-list user. There wasn't even any mention of character theft or intellectual property theft.

Obviously, most artists are either unwilling or (in light of what I said above) unable to report stolen characters, etc. directly on the F-list site. It doesn't matter if e621 is the real cause of the problem or not-- the artists seem to perceive that it is. THAT's why I'm suggesting that e621 have a takedown form variant for removing stolen characters from F-list users' RP'ing content and profiles. After all, if e621 and F-list share admins, surely the e621 admins could do something about character/art/whatever theft on F-list, right?

That way, there won't be any need for the art to be taken down anymore, and amateur uploaders like me won't have to deal with losing a huge chunk of my f**king upload limit because some d-bags pissed off an artist whose work I uploaded en masse.

Furrin_Gok said:
Dude, calm down. If you want them to take action, try messaging the admins on F-list and asking them to increase the enforcement, maybe apply a rule against using artwork from E621.

Also: We do not tag the character's creator. We only tag the artist.

I never said anything about the character's creator. I only mentioned that we tag the ART's creator. Wyntersun asked that all of her(?) art be taken down because people were claiming Wynter's art as their own on F-list and Twitter. While I doubt there's much anyone can do about the Twitter plagiarism (for reasons I don't feel like going into in-depth), I highly suspect the majority of it came from F-list.

On a side note, Wynter also mentioned that Patreon leaks and private content of hers(?) had been posted here as well, but those could have literally been taken care of with a few individual upload takedowns, not a total nuke of Wynter's content.

treos said:
that could have been shortened by using 4 words instead: with a flaming cactus

I prefer the former way because it drives in just how pissed I am with F-listers and their bullshit. "with a flaming cactus" just doesn't convey my contempt and anger the same way.

The_Masked_Newfag said:
I'm aware that e621 and F-list are both run by Dragonfruit, but I'm in no way familiar with ALL of the admins on this site.

If e621 and F-list do indeed share admins-- better yet, if they're both owned by the same company-- then why in God's name aren't the rules regarding copyright on e621 also applied to F-list?? Why not just let them ask for that content to be removed from F-list over here? Why not just provide a takedown form on e621 for artists to request that their art not be allowed for use on F-list for RP'ing (specifically, for whatever it is people are doing with it that constitutes intellectual property theft or art theft)?

Back when Strype requested his art be taken down, I went to the F-list site to look for a report button, and found nothing of the sort. The "help" button on F-list just directed me to their wikifur site, which when I searched "art theft" (as in how to report it), the most I got were a few pages which made, at most, a cursory passing reference to art theft when listing criteria for reporting an F-list user. There wasn't even any mention of character theft or intellectual property theft.

Obviously, most artists are either unwilling or (in light of what I said above) unable to report stolen characters, etc. directly on the F-list site. It doesn't matter if e621 is the real cause of the problem or not-- the artists seem to perceive that it is. THAT's why I'm suggesting that e621 have a takedown form variant for removing stolen characters from F-list users' RP'ing content and profiles. After all, if e621 and F-list share admins, surely the e621 admins could do something about character/art/whatever theft on F-list, right?

That way, there won't be any need for the art to be taken down anymore, and amateur uploaders like me won't have to deal with losing a huge chunk of my f**king upload limit because some d-bags pissed off an artist whose work I uploaded en masse.

My upload limit went from 78 to 66 overnight, for Christ's sake... How am I supposed to build up my post limit when my uploads keep getting nuked by bullsh*t like this...?

F-List shares our DNP list, impossible to accomplish since they have 2mb image limit and the squish breaks the md5 (and we don't have google's reverse image search; also cropped images), impossible to enforce without an automated image recognition software, it's not illegal since it's purely for private purposes and there is no monetary gain, the helpdesk is clearly labeled and offers all required instructions (open homepage --> Help & Info --> File a Ticket --> A user is using my art without permission).

Provide us with a free and simple solution to search tens of thousands of images based on content inside those image, that also finds cropped, resized or otherwise altered images, and we'll gladly implement it. Otherwise there is nothing we can do.

And before you come with "but they don't know how to request art being removed from F-List!!!", Wyntersun requested a couple takedowns on F-List beforehand.

Well, here's the thing: Artists and character owners are entitled to remove their stuff, for any reason. You don't have to agree with the reason, but you're going to have to respect that it's their choice. If we started saying "No, we aren't going to remove your artwork" I'm pretty sure we'd end up in some serious legal cases over it. They own the art or the characters, they have that choice, not you or the admins. If you want to see a stronger enforcement on DNP content, why don't you go police F-List and report each and every instance of a stolen uncredited image? Beast sitting here ranting but not accomplishing anything by leagues, that's for sure.

NotMeNotYou said:
Provide us with a free and simple solution to search tens of thousands of images based on content inside those image, that also finds cropped, resized or otherwise altered images, and we'll gladly implement it. Otherwise there is nothing we can do.

findimagedupes handles everything you specified -- though the more extreme a crop, the less reliable the hit rate. Naturally, the scope for alterations is unlimited , so not all can be found, but it also finds palette-swaps and minor edits.
Like most dupe finders, the main concern is false positives; some level of review would be needed.

NotMeNotYou said:
F-List shares our DNP list, impossible to accomplish since they have 2mb image limit and the squish breaks the md5 (and we don't have google's reverse image search; also cropped images), impossible to enforce without an automated image recognition software, it's not illegal since it's purely for private purposes and there is no monetary gain, the helpdesk is clearly labeled and offers all required instructions (open homepage --> Help & Info --> File a Ticket --> A user is using my art without permission).

Provide us with a free and simple solution to search tens of thousands of images based on content inside those image, that also finds cropped, resized or otherwise altered images, and we'll gladly implement it. Otherwise there is nothing we can do.

And before you come with "but they don't know how to request art being removed from F-List!!!", Wyntersun requested a couple takedowns on F-List beforehand.

savageorange's idea sounds like a solid one, if you ask me. So...

savageorange said:
findimagedupes handles everything you specified -- though the more extreme a crop, the less reliable the hit rate. Naturally, the scope for alterations is unlimited , so not all can be found, but it also finds palette-swaps and minor edits.
Like most dupe finders, the main concern is false positives; some level of review would be needed.

...there you go. :|

The_Masked_Newfag said:
...there you go. :|

Not compatible with Ruby on rails, would require large changes to everything we run.

It's pretty weird to claim that a standalone command is not compatible with a framework, unless you are implying that your host won't let you install some of findimagedupe's dependencies (perl, graphicsmagick).

The man page for findimagedupes also clearly describes the core algorithms (how to generate and compare fingerprints), which are both simple and naturally independent of any particular framework or system.

Would be interested to find out what the 'large changes' would be.

We run a Linux environment, that much is true, but the rest is on Ruby on rails. That thing would need to handle 800k images inside a db, index all of that data, then present it to admins in a useable format that allows searching inside the database to spit out proper results, all while not interfering with any existing code.

It's not just done by simply installing it since a whooping 3 people have actual server access keys, it needs to be integrated with everything else on the server if it's supposed to be useful.

That sounds more like it has nothing to do with findimagedupes specifically, and everything to do with the work that'd be needed to set up -any- kind of systematic image duplicate check.

Perhaps there could be more precautions to prevent stolen art ending up on f list in the first place. Maybe a little warning on the upload saying "If using art not by or for you, double check with the artist that it's okay to use here" or something like that. It's no perfect solution but it'll curb the problem.

They're all just being crybabies lets be real.

You can get the art from any site they post on doesn't matter if its E6 or F-List any artist who removes their content because RP'ers are using their images clearly doesn't understand how the internet works and the RP'ers are not gonna stop doing it no matter where they post.

Cynosure said:
They're all just being crybabies lets be real.

You can get the art from any site they post on doesn't matter if its E6 or F-List any artist who removes their content because RP'ers are using their images clearly doesn't understand how the internet works and the RP'ers are not gonna stop doing it no matter where they post.

It's not "just being crybabies." While there are exceptions, those who choose to mooch off of others will take the easy way when doing so. e621 makes it extremely easy to find art for their RPing thanks to the search system we have, which makes it a key source for those people.

Take it away from here, and most won't go hunting the same artist elsewhere, just grab other art they can find here instead.

Is the benefit of pulling it from here enough to make it worth it? I would think not, but it comes down to what the individual artist feels and I see no reason not to respect their choice.

Was there a public announcement Wyntersun made? If not, I feel like I might've influenced their decision to do this, even though I've never used their artwork at all. I'd have to talk to them again to confirm this, but they're somewhat reclusive.

Pepperyena said:
Was there a public announcement Wyntersun made? If not, I feel like I might've influenced their decision to do this, even though I've never used their artwork at all. I'd have to talk to them again to confirm this, but they're somewhat reclusive.

Actually, it was this takedown request that Wyntersun made:

www.e621.net/takedown/show/4433

Kaeetayel said:
Perhaps there could be more precautions to prevent stolen art ending up on f list in the first place. Maybe a little warning on the upload saying "If using art not by or for you, double check with the artist that it's okay to use here" or something like that. It's no perfect solution but it'll curb the problem.

What baffles me is why this isn't a rule over there already. You'd think this kind of thing would be stupidly obvious as a necessity to prevent IP/art theft on the site.

Twitter and F-List. I mean, at the very least, if you're going to make a rant thread at F-List, I'd expect the same at Twitter.

Anyhow. I'm Xenjin - otherwise known as Ryu on F-List - and that makes me one of the staffers who's crossed over between the two sites.

I'd just like to point out that F-List and e621 are two very different sites with very different visions. F-List never has, and never will be, an art exclusive site. The objective of F-List always has been as a roleplay site, with the 'F' standing for 'Fetish'.

We have a Helpdesk, much like yours, where we receive image removal requests, and we promptly remove them as they are brought to our attention. Now, I know what you're thinking. "But Ryu, what about staffers approving each image before they can be posted to profiles?"

That isn't really feasible for a multitude of reasons, the first one being that staff already has a lot on their plate - we run a roleplay site, not an image site. Each character is allowed 150 images apiece. F-List has 4.5 million images - about five times that of e621. Secondly, that would take a redesign of the entire system. It's not set up like that, it never has been and it probably never will be.

That being said, we are revisiting the rules around verifications and art takedowns and we will be considering this.

Ryu
Assistant Lead Administrator, F-List

Wodahseht said:
It's not "just being crybabies." While there are exceptions, those who choose to mooch off of others will take the easy way when doing so. e621 makes it extremely easy to find art for their RPing thanks to the search system we have, which makes it a key source for those people.

Take it away from here, and most won't go hunting the same artist elsewhere, just grab other art they can find here instead.

Is the benefit of pulling it from here enough to make it worth it? I would think not, but it comes down to what the individual artist feels and I see no reason not to respect their choice.

Unless they enjoy the artist?

I love Onta's work and most of it isn't posted here especially his work with Marty nearly all of it is posted literally anywhere but this site so I search other sites for it. If you think pulling your art off one site is the solution then you're delusional.

I bet I could out-rant you in a drunken rant contest!
Only problem is if I keep fucking up I'll lose my account so I wont do it here

Cynosure said:
Unless they enjoy the artist?

I love Onta's work and most of it isn't posted here especially his work with Marty nearly all of it is posted literally anywhere but this site so I search other sites for it. If you think pulling your art off one site is the solution then you're delusional.

you know all sites do not care about artists wanting their art removed, all sites do not prevent from reposting previously deleted content and some sites make removing art really difficult and sometimes artists just dont wanna bother to go through all that crap to get rid of some pictures.

i once wanted to remove two pictures off some weird bootleg reddit. i had to hunt like 20 minutes for a way to contact admins and all i got a reply that asked me to mail literal physical takedown request and proof that the drawings were mine with signature and all to russia to remove two crappy doodles and i just didnt give enough fucks to do that.

Mutisija said:
you know all sites do not care about artists wanting their art removed, all sites do not prevent from reposting previously deleted content and some sites make removing art really difficult and sometimes artists just dont wanna bother to go through all that crap to get rid of some pictures.

i once wanted to remove two pictures off some weird bootleg reddit. i had to hunt like 20 minutes for a way to contact admins and all i got a reply that asked me to mail literal physical takedown request and proof that the drawings were mine with signature and all to russia to remove two crappy doodles and i just didnt give enough fucks to do that.

My god, how wasteful...

Sooo... if I ever decide to upload art of one or more of my OCs, I should put my name as a suffix on their name tag to help prevent that from happening?

Not sure how that works.

Chame34 said:
Sooo... if I ever decide to upload art of one or more of my OCs, I should put my name as a suffix on their name tag to help prevent that from happening?

Not sure how that works.

What are you talking about here? AFAICS this thread is about unauthorized use of art, and doesn't really talk about tagging at all.

Mutisija said:
you know all sites do not care about artists wanting their art removed, all sites do not prevent from reposting previously deleted content and some sites make removing art really difficult and sometimes artists just dont wanna bother to go through all that crap to get rid of some pictures.

i once wanted to remove two pictures off some weird bootleg reddit. i had to hunt like 20 minutes for a way to contact admins and all i got a reply that asked me to mail literal physical takedown request and proof that the drawings were mine with signature and all to russia to remove two crappy doodles and i just didnt give enough fucks to do that.

Damn.

Ah, so I didn't have anything to do with this. I think.

By the look of things, they decided to remove the art because of premature patreon uploads, as well. That is a slightly more justifiable, albeit annoying, reason.

As someone who no longer uses FA, and will not be using FA.....e621 is as far as I know the only place to keep up with Wynter's amazing artwork (like most people I can't toss cash every month at the Patreon of every artist I admire, even if I want to; catching Picarto streams isn't always viable)

This is quite disheartening.

Xenjin said:
Twitter and F-List. I mean, at the very least, if you're going to make a rant thread at F-List, I'd expect the same at Twitter.

Anyhow. I'm Xenjin - otherwise known as Ryu on F-List - and that makes me one of the staffers who's crossed over between the two sites.

I'd just like to point out that F-List and e621 are two very different sites with very different visions. F-List never has, and never will be, an art exclusive site. The objective of F-List always has been as a roleplay site, with the 'F' standing for 'Fetish'.

We have a Helpdesk, much like yours, where we receive image removal requests, and we promptly remove them as they are brought to our attention. Now, I know what you're thinking. "But Ryu, what about staffers approving each image before they can be posted to profiles?"

That isn't really feasible for a multitude of reasons, the first one being that staff already has a lot on their plate - we run a roleplay site, not an image site. Each character is allowed 150 images apiece. F-List has 4.5 million images - about five times that of e621. Secondly, that would take a redesign of the entire system. It's not set up like that, it never has been and it probably never will be.

That being said, we are revisiting the rules around verifications and art takedowns and we will be considering this.

Ryu
Assistant Lead Administrator, F-List

The first part of your comment is the only part I take issue with.

Do you seriously expect me to believe that ranting about Twitter's part in this would make a shred of difference? Twitter is on an entirely different level than F-list. It's a social networking site used by billions of people.

I ranted about F-list because there's actually some chance of my rant being seen by an admin of that site who actually cares about stuff like this enough to do something about it. Case in point, you noticed my rant and stated that your site's rules are in fact being reviewed partly in response to this issue.

Ranting about Twitter's responsibility in this would be like ranting about the flaws of Tumblr's piece-of-crap reporting system-- like Tumblr, nobody over on Twitter's staff would give enough of a fuck to care about its users' art theft negatively impacting a comparatively smaller (and more importantly, fetish-oriented) site like e621, let alone do anything about it.

The_Masked_Newfag said:
Ranting about Twitter's responsibility in this would be like ranting about the flaws of Tumblr's piece-of-crap reporting system-- like Tumblr, nobody over on Twitter's staff would give enough of a fuck to care about its users' art theft negatively impacting a comparatively smaller (and more importantly, fetish-oriented) site like e621, let alone do anything about it.

I have to disagree, I filed a DMCA directly with tumblr recently and got a very professional and positive response back. As long as you present adequate proof and follow the right channels tumblr is more than inclined to bitch slap some idiot around.

>Wyntersun
And nothing of value was lost.

Cactus said:
>Wyntersun
And nothing of value was lost.

>Implying opinions

Look at it this way: there are other artists out there who are now going to enjoy not being overshadowed by more popular names anymore.

I used to be annoyed with the creepy possessiveness many artists express over artwork they made freely available on public galleries, until I realized that was my competition shooting itself in the foot.

NotMeNotYou said:
I have to disagree, I filed a DMCA directly with tumblr recently and got a very professional and positive response back. As long as you present adequate proof and follow the right channels tumblr is more than inclined to bitch slap some idiot around.

I'm referring to the system Tumblr uses for reporting its users, not for removing individual content. Tumblr's system automatically deletes a user's account if it is reported a certain number of times by various people, without any form of review by the staff.

This has been exploited multiple times in the past by trolls and other little bitches who dislike a certain user for whatever petty or inane reason. A group of them all submit false reports on a user within a short time period and get that user banned. (A good example would be the numerous brony artists on Tumblr whose accounts got deleted thanks to MLP-bashing twats using this method during the MLP fandom's early years). No matter how many times people have tried to request that the Tumblr staff address this issue with the user reporting system, the staff have chosen to be lazy fucks and ignore the problem.

The_Masked_Newfag said:
I'm referring to the system Tumblr uses for reporting its users, not for removing individual content. Tumblr's system automatically deletes a user's account if it is reported a certain number of times by various people, without any form of review by the staff.

This has been exploited multiple times in the past by trolls and other little bitches who dislike a certain user for whatever petty or inane reason. A group of them all submit false reports on a user within a short time period and get that user banned. (A good example would be the numerous brony artists on Tumblr whose accounts got deleted thanks to MLP-bashing twats using this method during the MLP fandom's early years). No matter how many times people have tried to request that the Tumblr staff address this issue with the user reporting system, the staff have chosen to be lazy fucks and ignore the problem.

How many of them have written a well thought out and carefully constructed email to the staff about the problem?

The_Masked_Newfag said:
I'm referring to the system Tumblr uses for reporting its users, not for removing individual content. Tumblr's system automatically deletes a user's account if it is reported a certain number of times by various people, without any form of review by the staff.

This has been exploited multiple times in the past by trolls and other little bitches who dislike a certain user for whatever petty or inane reason. A group of them all submit false reports on a user within a short time period and get that user banned. (A good example would be the numerous brony artists on Tumblr whose accounts got deleted thanks to MLP-bashing twats using this method during the MLP fandom's early years). No matter how many times people have tried to request that the Tumblr staff address this issue with the user reporting system, the staff have chosen to be lazy fucks and ignore the problem.

My understanding was that it specifically had to reported as "Child Pornography" for the Tumblrnuke BS to kick in. If any report reason can do that, then it's even more of a horrid site than even I criticize it of being.