Ok, let me make this quick so there's this guy who keeps changing this null character to female but nulls a male, I send him a message and told to stop removing the male tag and still he changes it back to female repeatedly what do I do? user is Siral_Exan

Well show the post. Siral probably has a good reason for it. It probably has something to do with Tag what you see.

https://e621.net/post/show/1007552
https://e621.net/post/show/1007541
https://e621.net/post/show/1007535
https://e621.net/post/show/1003998
https://e621.net/post/show/1003997
https://e621.net/post/show/1012682
https://e621.net/post/show/1014373
https://e621.net/post/show/1014576

Admins have already said the female tag stays.

Siral_Exan said:
https://e621.net/post/show/1007552
https://e621.net/post/show/1007541
https://e621.net/post/show/1007535
https://e621.net/post/show/1003998
https://e621.net/post/show/1003997
https://e621.net/post/show/1012682
https://e621.net/post/show/1014373
https://e621.net/post/show/1014576

Admins have already said the female tag stays.

So what its up to the artist for gender and sssonic2 says null a male

Lerred1 said:
So what its up to the artist for gender and sssonic2 says null a male

No. sources only count for names and artists, never for genders.

Lerred1 said:
So what its up to the artist for gender and sssonic2 says null a male

Its tag what you see, not tag what you know. Therefore tags are based on what the pictures shows rather than what the artist says.

Mighyenta said:
Its tag what you see, not tag what you know. Therefore tags are based on what the pictures shows rather than what the artist says.

really .-.

Lerred1 said:
really .-.

Yup. ／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼

Here you can find more information about it.)

Lerred1 said:
really .-.

https://e621.net/wiki/show/e621:tagging_checklist And therein is also a wiki article for Tag What You See (explained))

Siral_Exan said:
https://e621.net/wiki/show/e621:tagging_checklist And therein is also a wiki article for Tag What You See (explained))

wait so it not up to the artist

Lerred1 said:
wait so it not up to the artist

Ya ya. Since its not up to the artist to make you see something that isnt there.

Lerred1 said:
wait so it not up to the artist

The artist only has say over the character name & their artist name through sourcing. Everything else is TWYS, save certain dialogue-based tags like dirty talking.

Siral_Exan said:
The artist only has say over the character name & their artist name through sourcing. Everything else is TWYS, save certain dialogue-based tags like dirty talking.

I feel stupid now anyways sorry I didn't know but I have one more question WHY DIDNT YOU TELL ME.

Lerred1 said:
I feel stupid now anyways sorry I didn't know but I have one more question WHY DIDNT YOU TELL ME.

That's what we just did... Didn't we?

Mighyenta said:
That's what we just did.

No like 10hours ago

Lerred1 said:
I feel stupid now anyways sorry I didn't know but I have one more question WHY DIDNT YOU TELL ME.

Couldn't, not didn't. Busy doing a hundred other things at once so I've been using the revert button. Doesn't help that every person awake takes a chunk out of my Internet speed...

I was able to type after you stopped, and "out of sight, out of mind"-ed it.

Lerred1 said:
No like 10hours ago

How should Siral have known that you didn't know about the rule?

Mighyenta said:
How should Siral have known that you didn't know about the rule?

I don't know

For comparison's sake, it took me 7 minutes to type out all those links and send it. It can take me upwards to 20 to finish all the linking to wiki pages, type in what is relevant, and etc. What the admins have said was visible to everyone, so you could of taken heed to them first instead of trying to contact me.

Siral_Exan said:
For comparison's sake, it took me 7 minutes to type out all those links and send it. It can take me upwards to 20 to finish all the linking to wiki pages, type in what is relevant, and etc. What the admins have said was visible to everyone, so you could of taken heed to them first instead of trying to contact me.

Sorry I just thought members would respond faster then admins

Lerred1 said:
Sorry I just thought members would respond faster then admins

The admins do not respond as fast, either. We have a chatroom where you can try to get to them faster, but I never can assure it. To quote them from way back when, when talking to me, "we have lives ourselves, that doesn't involve this site".

Siral_Exan said:
The admins do not respond as fast, either. We have a chatroom where you can try to get to them faster, but I never can assure it. To quote them from way back when, when talking to me, "we have lives ourselves, that doesn't involve this site".

Anyways sorry for bothering you and messaging and taking your time so see ya also have day a nice day :D

Mighyenta said:
Its tag what you see, not tag what you know. Therefore tags are based on what the pictures shows rather than what the artist says.

Yeah but even going by tagging what you see, there's no visible genitals to really indicate either gender in the first place. There are child-like qualities, and the character has somewhat of a slight 'baby fat' belly, but that doesn't really indicate anything. A lack of an erect penis doesn't make a female, or else anybody with a pair of pants or somebody like say, Bugs Bunny would be 'female'.

The closest things to sexual secondary characteristics that aren't shared by pretty much all children we have is a decidedly non-feminine chest set up, and extremely non-feminine transformation with very masculine looking bulky arms (which I'm not saying automatically means male either, but come on). The closet thing to a tertiary sexual characteristic is the character in a piece literally 'speaking' the male symbol.

Even going by tag what you see it'd be, at best ambiguous, and realistically if the character is known to be male, and has no 'naughty' art to suggest otherwise, they shouldn't be treated any different than any other male character that has clothing or are 'funny animal' clothed ala Porky Pig or Donald Duck, characters that don't just become female just because they walk around without pants on but don't have a 12 foot corkscrew dick hanging out.

Also make sure to check out our handy-dandy gender tagging guide for more info

Also, this isn't meant to be some kind of character assassination of Siral Exan, like he has his (or her or their) right to their own point of view and even if I disagree with their assessment of the pictures in question, I don't mean that to be some kind of slight on the person. Sorry if there was any confusion.

DamienG said:
Yeah but even going by tagging what you see, there's no visible genitals to really indicate either gender in the first place. There are child-like qualities, and the character has somewhat of a slight 'baby fat' belly, but that doesn't really indicate anything. A lack of an erect penis doesn't make a female, or else anybody with a pair of pants or somebody like say, Bugs Bunny would be 'female'.

The closest things to sexual secondary characteristics that aren't shared by pretty much all children we have is a decidedly non-feminine chest set up, and extremely non-feminine transformation with very masculine looking bulky arms (which I'm not saying automatically means male either, but come on). The closet thing to a tertiary sexual characteristic is the character in a piece literally 'speaking' the male symbol.

Even going by tag what you see it'd be, at best ambiguous, and realistically if the character is known to be male, and has no 'naughty' art to suggest otherwise, they shouldn't be treated any different than any other male character that has clothing or are 'funny animal' clothed ala Porky Pig or Donald Duck, characters that don't just become female just because they walk around without pants on but don't have a 12 foot corkscrew dick hanging out.

I was not prepared to engage in sucha big disscussion.

DamienG said:
Yeah but even going by tagging what you see, there's no visible genitals to really indicate either gender in the first place. There are child-like qualities, and the character has somewhat of a slight 'baby fat' belly, but that doesn't really indicate anything. A lack of an erect penis doesn't make a female, or else anybody with a pair of pants or somebody like say, Bugs Bunny would be 'female'.

The closest things to sexual secondary characteristics that aren't shared by pretty much all children we have is a decidedly non-feminine chest set up, and extremely non-feminine transformation with very masculine looking bulky arms (which I'm not saying automatically means male either, but come on). The closet thing to a tertiary sexual characteristic is the character in a piece literally 'speaking' the male symbol.

Even going by tag what you see it'd be, at best ambiguous, and realistically if the character is known to be male, and has no 'naughty' art to suggest otherwise, they shouldn't be treated any different than any other male character that has clothing or are 'funny animal' clothed ala Porky Pig or Donald Duck, characters that don't just become female just because they walk around without pants on but don't have a 12 foot corkscrew dick hanging out.

1: genitals and body type determines gender. The intersex tag or the ambiguous_gender tag goes if we alter/remove one or the other (or both tags).
2: they may be tagged as young, but they are definitely not cub or children, or etc. young adult is what I'd call it.
3: genitals are ultimatums. They are always the deciding tag for genders, if present.
4: primary gender body types influence if no genitals are shown. Secondaries are after the gender, and they are girly or tomboy
5: the Mars symbol has no influence on tagging gender, nor does the Venus or hermaphrodite symbols.
6: ambiguous gender only applies if the the being is shown as an innate ambiguous state (slimes from RPGs, fish, etc.) or if there is not enough gender details to even tag genders in either way. They DO get secondary gender traits, though.
7: every time you stated something about official characters and genders, please recognize that body types are the primary influence for them because they normally lack genitals.

Lerred1 said:
Ok, let me make this quick so there's this guy who keeps changing this null character to female but nulls a male, I send him a message and told to stop removing the male tag and still he changes it back to female repeatedly what do I do? user is Siral_Exan

When I search for a male, I wanna see a dick (male) and not a pussy(female), sounds logical no?

DelurC said:
When I search for a male, I wanna see a dick (male) and not a pussy(female), sounds logical no?

Already resolved man

Siral_Exan said:
https://e621.net/post/show/1012682[/quote]
Admin never said on that one, it's showing the male symbol. How's the ruling on that?

DelurC said:
When I search for a male, I wanna see a dick (male) and not a pussy(female), sounds logical no?

Yeah your kinda late bud

Furrin_Gok said:
Admin never said on that one, it's showing the male symbol. How's the ruling on that?

dude that's why I'm so confused

Furrin_Gok said:
Admin never said on that one, it's showing the male symbol. How's the ruling on that?

would you tag this as apple or orange

Mutisija said:
would you tag this as apple or orange

That would hurt its feelings. That apple believes it can be anything it wants to be. So i believe in its ability to be the best goddamn orange there is

Mutisija said:
would you tag this as apple or orange

Try a peach versus apple. The actual sex is ambiguous, with a few feminine traits, which lead to the female tag. However, slap a penis on a feminine character and it's suddenly just a girly male, not a female.

Siral_Exan said:
Doesn't help that every person awake takes a chunk out of my Internet speed...

i share your pain...until night time after everyone goes to bed except me. a shared internet connection is annoying like that. but hey, endless bandwidth here (even if the download speed is slow at around 180kb/s in most cases), so it's not all bad.

Mutisija said:
would you tag this as apple or orange

hmmm... that depends... is it apple or orange on the inside when sliced in half?

The parameters for gender tagging can change sometimes in the case of ferals, but this character doesn't look feral. It's a different gender than its source gender, but it doesn't actually look different, so it can't get the crossgender tag either. The point is, there are certain exceptions to the general gender tagging rules, but even they don't apply here.

Mutisija said:
would you tag this as apple or orange

It'd be closer to to if this picture was colored entirely orange, had no stem, and people were still being like "Totes apple".

Siral_Exan said:
1: genitals and body type determines gender. The intersex tag or the ambiguous_gender tag goes if we alter/remove one or the other (or both tags).
2: they may be tagged as young, but they are definitely not cub or children, or etc. young adult is what I'd call it.
3: genitals are ultimatums. They are always the deciding tag for genders, if present.
4: primary gender body types influence if no genitals are shown. Secondaries are after the gender, and they are girly or tomboy
5: the Mars symbol has no influence on tagging gender, nor does the Venus or hermaphrodite symbols.
6: ambiguous gender only applies if the the being is shown as an innate ambiguous state (slimes from RPGs, fish, etc.) or if there is not enough gender details to even tag genders in either way. They DO get secondary gender traits, though.
7: every time you stated something about official characters and genders, please recognize that body types are the primary influence for them because they normally lack genitals.

There's no primary sexual characteristics to take into account. Like at all. Despite being naked it has all the genitals of a brick. But that shouldn't and doesn't stop gendering of people because it'd be.. crazy as hell if it did?

As for secondary, the body type isn't really female, though. That's my biggest disagreement. The closest thing to actual secondary sexual characteristics we have is 'masculine arms' in one picture and 'masculine chest' in pretty much every other one. Fat gut isn't a 'female' characteristic. Undefined sausage legs isn't a gender characteristic it's just.. bad anatomy?

There are no tertiary sexual characteristics for the most part because the thing doesn't wear clothing or speak in any picture except the one time and all it says is "Mars Symbol", which I admit is weak, but like there's nothing else.

Like to me it'd be like taking a picture of a block of tofu and adding Trogdor's beefy arm to it then calling it female because it has baby cheeks and a fat gut.

I mean, don't get me wrong, feel free to see it however you want, I guess, it just seems weird go against the artist's wishes because you are imagining a vulva. Like it's tag what you see, not tag what your dirty imagination plays out. It just feels like if you had a picture of a mostly naked fat guy with lipstick sporting only a pair of underwear and beefy arms and a marines tattoo somebody is gonna be like "That's a woman" because he has a mullet.

And don't get me wrong, if you see that picture and squint and imagine his crotch fat pouch as a vagina and daydream about that glorious mullet and rub one out, this isn't me trying to shame nobody.

But, I still think people are seeing vaginas where there are none.

Note: And I'm sorry if I seem harsh on the art itself, I know this isn't meant to be a critique of the piece itself and frankly it isn't as bad as I'm making it out, just trying to explain how I see it. I hope by no means any artist involved in this sees and feels bad about their stuff. :(

DelurC said:
When I search for a male, I wanna see a dick (male) and not a pussy(female), sounds logical no?

This isn't me trying to play the whole trans gender thing, but I had to go and literally look back up every picture to make sure I didn't have a stroke and failed to see something, but nope, every single picture there has neither of those characteristics. In the few that you could even see their crotch it's just flat. Every other one is just a face or ass pic. And there's plenty of femboi pics that make the ass thing irrelevant.

Knotty_Curls said:
Also make sure to check out our handy-dandy gender tagging guide for more info

For me, using the flowchart vertical:

Genitals present? No (Featureless Crotch)
Breasts? No
Body Type (Honestly mixed. Masculine chest, arms. Feminine Eyes. Gut Fat = Neutral. More neutral or male than female though)? To me it's either Unknown Body - Penis - Breasts = Ambiguous or Male Body - Penis - Breasts = Male.

But like I said, whatever, hah. You're free to imagine what you want.

DamienG said:
It'd be closer to to if this picture was colored entirely orange, had no stem, and people were still being like "Totes apple".

There's no primary sexual characteristics to take into account. Like at all. Despite being naked it has all the genitals of a brick. But that shouldn't and doesn't stop gendering of people because it'd be.. crazy as hell if it did?

As for secondary, the body type isn't really female, though. That's my biggest disagreement. The closest thing to actual secondary sexual characteristics we have is 'masculine arms' in one picture and 'masculine chest' in pretty much every other one. Fat gut isn't a 'female' characteristic. Undefined sausage legs isn't a gender characteristic it's just.. bad anatomy?

There are no tertiary sexual characteristics for the most part because the thing doesn't wear clothing or speak in any picture except the one time and all it says is "Mars Symbol", which I admit is weak, but like there's nothing else.

Like to me it'd be like taking a picture of a block of tofu and adding Trogdor's beefy arm to it then calling it female because it has baby cheeks and a fat gut.

I mean, don't get me wrong, feel free to see it however you want, I guess, it just seems weird go against the artist's wishes because you are imagining a vulva. Like it's tag what you see, not tag what your dirty imagination plays out. It just feels like if you had a picture of a mostly naked fat guy with lipstick sporting only a pair of underwear and beefy arms and a marines tattoo somebody is gonna be like "That's a woman" because he has a mullet.

And don't get me wrong, if you see that picture and squint and imagine his crotch fat pouch as a vagina and daydream about that glorious mullet and rub one out, this isn't me trying to shame nobody.

But, I still think people are seeing vaginas where there are none.

Note: And I'm sorry if I seem harsh on the art itself, I know this isn't meant to be a critique of the piece itself and frankly it isn't as bad as I'm making it out, just trying to explain how I see it. I hope by no means any artist involved in this sees and feels bad about their stuff. :(

This isn't me trying to play the whole trans gender thing, but I had to go and literally look back up every picture to make sure I didn't have a stroke and failed to see something, but nope, every single picture there has neither of those characteristics. In the few that you could even see their crotch it's just flat. Every other one is just a face or ass pic. And there's plenty of femboi pics that make the ass thing irrelevant.

Dude I was so surprise when Siral_Exan said "Admins have already said the female tag stays" I reply saying "So what its up to the artist for gender and sssonic2 says null a male" Are e621 tags for female and male messed up?

I wanna crash the party.

Is gender determined by:
A. Body
B. Heart (/Soul)
C. Mind

DelurC said:
I wanna crash the party.

Is gender determined by:
A. Body
B. Heart (/Soul)
C. Mind

D. Wind (/Hot air)

Lance_Armstrong said:

DelurC said:
I wanna crash the party.

Is gender determined by:
A. Body
B. Heart (/Soul)
C. Mind

D. Wind (/Hot air)

Fire, Water, Earth. With your powers combined...

Clawdragons said:
D. Wind (/Hot air)

Fire, Water, Earth. With your powers combined...
[/quote]

We get a hot mudbath?

You must learn all the elements to become avatar

Lerred1 said:
Dude I was so surprise when Siral_Exan said "Admins have already said the female tag stays" I reply saying "So what its up to the artist for gender and sssonic2 says null a male" Are e621 tags for female and male messed up?

Our tags are not messed up: We tag what we see, that way people find it when using tags that would fit the image. A person who doesn't look at the lore would look at that and say "Hey, that's a female," so why tag it anything but?

I know how frustrating it can be - because my Latius character (when only their dick and cleavage, not folds, are visible) would be tagged herm due to TWYK, but TWYS says they're a dickgirl.

Lativee said:
I know how frustrating it can be - because my Latius character (when only their dick and cleavage, not folds, are visible) would be tagged herm due to TWYK, but TWYS says they're a dickgirl.

ikr #power to the artist

Lerred1 said:

ikr #power to the artist

What are we? A bunch of hippies fighting for artistic freedom?

Lerred1 said:

ikr #power to the artist

or maybe we play by house the rules instead....?

Lativee said:
I know how frustrating it can be - because my Latius character (when only their dick and cleavage, not folds, are visible) would be tagged herm due to TWYK, but TWYS says they're a dickgirl.

https://youtu.be/9P3CGYkVPfA?t=3m30s

Might as well lock the thread by now. This is getting off the point that is now resolved anyway.

Mighyenta said:
What are we? A bunch of hippies fighting for artistic freedom?

Yep.

Hudson said:
Might as well lock the thread by now. This is getting off the point that is now resolved anyway.

Yeah