TL;DR: Could someone really be accepted as gender neutral IRL by society as a whole without verification being given either way? Is there such thing as "they", or "he" and "she" IRL, just like with certain characters online?

Literally anything that's different from the status quo won't be welcomed. And there would be tons of people who would disagree with such an individual's existence, so I don't think it would be worth the bother of trying to put yourself across as non-gendered or neutral-gendered

well i present as male which kinda cancels out my feminine physical traits leaving me as quite androgynous and i often hear people around me whispering "is it boy or girl?". but idk about how socially acceptable is it. usually people tend to just ignore what i am but sometimes people get upset about it and call me faggot, lesbian (in insulting manner) or tranny depending on what they assume about my gender. also idk about the pronoun stuff because my language doesnt have gendered pronouns so.

Mutisija said:
well i present as male which kinda cancels out my feminine physical traits leaving me as quite androgynous and i often hear people around me whispering "is it boy or girl?". but idk about how socially acceptable is it. usually people tend to just ignore what i am but sometimes people get upset about it and call me faggot, lesbian (in insulting manner) or tranny depending on what they assume about my gender. also idk about the pronoun stuff because my language doesnt have gendered pronouns so.

Have you ever experimented with that? Have you ever just avoided affirmation of gender or even outright denied being either gender when in that situation just to see what happens?

Granted you said the outcome towards you is usually socially negative, but maybe it would be worth the trouble just for the sake of experimentation. As long as you still feel completely safe despite such negativity that is.

(Btw, I'm the same way too, but usually instead of assuming I am a male or female of my age, they assume that I am just a younger child, usually of male gender in the summer and female gender in the winter.)

Ryuzaki_Izawa said:
Literally anything that's different from the status quo won't be welcomed. And there would be tons of people who would disagree with such an individual's existence, so I don't think it would be worth the bother of trying to put yourself across as non-gendered or neutral-gendered

Meh. Although I agree with you for the most part, I'd still like to know if such could happen. For instance, in japan there's a lot of mixed gender/genderless culture there. Boys who are girls, girls who are boys, people who are inconclusive, etc. I just wonder if that whole "I'm a they"/"I'm a girl and a boy"/"I'm whatever makes you/me comfortable" culture could ever be integrated into other society in countries, such as America, too.

Ryuzaki_Izawa said:
Literally anything that's different from the status quo won't be welcomed. And there would be tons of people who would disagree with such an individual's existence, so I don't think it would be worth the bother of trying to put yourself across as non-gendered or neutral-gendered

You make it sound like everybody everywhere will violently deny the existence of non-binary individuals. While there will be a lot of people like that, most just don't care and plenty are accepting.

Kristal_Candeo said:

Full Topic Outline:

So we all know about Gender Neutrality/Gender Ambiguity in art, right? It's where a character cannot be determined as Male nor as Female strictly by outward appearance/other determining factor.

Yet, no matter which gender you decide to refer to them as, it doesn't necessarily affect the social actions of the character, either. Regardless of what they do and regardless of whether such usually falls into the societal definition of being a male or female, said actions are usually flexible enough overall that the ambiguity/neutrality remains.

One of the most recent cases of such a character is a popular media is the protagonist of the videogame Undertale: Frisk/Chara. People aren't sure whether they are really a male or female, yet are free to make inferences based on... Whatever, I guess.

This brings me to my discussion question: Is there such thing as Gender Neutrality/ambiguity IRL? Is it possible for a person to present themselves in such a way that, without proof/affirmation, they could be seen as both/either gender?

Now the question I'm asking really isn't one of if a single person could "pull it off", but rather if real life society would allow and openly acknowledge someone as gender neutral and be okay with it. Could society resolve to allude to a person as "they" (or even some "she" and some as "he") and accept that as normal without needing to know which is actually correct.

Online, characters like Chara/Frisk, monsterkid, and Temmie are all "they". Some have accepted that He is a "he", and some have accepted that she is a "she. Yet nonetheless our overall opinions of them don't rely on which is actually correct. And regardless of if they date boys or girls, wear skirts or pants, or like pink rather than blue, their actions prove to be so gender flexible that we still don't really know. Yet we don't really HAVE to know either. So would such a thing be able to happen with "characters"(real people) IRL just like it does online?

Now just to illustrate: let's say, a person's interests in certain topical things are flexible enough (gender wise) in a social setting and that person also is equally as masculine as they are feminine in physique and appearance as well as in their mannerisms in a social environment, and they just so happen to have a unisex name, like jessi or something, and they had just the right vocal tone to make it questionable, or even no voice at all. And let's say that they are bisexual and are open about wearing female clothing and male clothing while still remaining gender neutral. (they may wear baggy cargo pants but also a tight, thin hoodie/jacket, but never something like a short skirt or a tuxedo.) Also, let's say that such a person also never use a public bathroom, since most of those are separated by gender. Could they be reffered to as both "him" and "her" by different people in public and without verification still be accepted as "they" by society. If someone asked, "are you a "girl" or a boy?" And they just refused to answer or just shrugged or said "whatever makes you comfortable to refer to me as." Would that possibly be acceptable to society IRL? Could someone really be gender neutral IRL?

Now I am aware that the whole "by law"/"via documentation" thing may make such a thing difficult to do given a professional setting, but I'm just asking if this could be a reality in a purely casual setting mainly.

TL;DR: Could someone really be accepted as gender neutral IRL by society as a whole without verification being given either way? Is there such thing as "they", or "he" and "she" IRL, just like with certain characters online?

Actually Australian citizens for the past year or so to my knowledge can legally register themselves to be just that... just saying.
Dont see that ever happening in the US any time soon thou, of all "western" countries the US is one of the most socially backward... Its still fighting over races, hoW could one accept non-binary gender system when we cant even get over races, large parts of US legislature right this moment are working hard the reverse any and all rights given to LGBT...

Kristal_Candeo said:
Have you ever experimented with that? Have you ever just avoided affirmation of gender or even outright denied being either gender when in that situation just to see what happens?

Granted you said the outcome towards you is usually socially negative, but maybe it would be worth the trouble just for the sake of experimentation. As long as you still feel completely safe despite such negativity that is.

idk i dont really experiment with my gender identity like that. people dont usually start asking about my gender because most of people know that its not polite.
and finnish is so gender neutral language that its extremely rare that there even are situations where someone would misgender me. the few people who misgender me are usually little children , old people, drunkards and my parents. with the children, old people and drunkards i dont care at all and with my parents i dont want to correct them because im still not out to them.

Kristal_Candeo said:

Full Topic Outline:

So we all know about Gender Neutrality/Gender Ambiguity in art, right? It's where a character cannot be determined as Male nor as Female strictly by outward appearance/other determining factor.

Yet, no matter which gender you decide to refer to them as, it doesn't necessarily affect the social actions of the character, either. Regardless of what they do and regardless of whether such usually falls into the societal definition of being a male or female, said actions are usually flexible enough overall that the ambiguity/neutrality remains.

One of the most recent cases of such a character is a popular media is the protagonist of the videogame Undertale: Frisk/Chara. People aren't sure whether they are really a male or female, yet are free to make inferences based on... Whatever, I guess.

This brings me to my discussion question: Is there such thing as Gender Neutrality/ambiguity IRL? Is it possible for a person to present themselves in such a way that, without proof/affirmation, they could be seen as both/either gender?

Now the question I'm asking really isn't one of if a single person could "pull it off", but rather if real life society would allow and openly acknowledge someone as gender neutral and be okay with it. Could society resolve to allude to a person as "they" (or even some "she" and some as "he") and accept that as normal without needing to know which is actually correct.

Online, characters like Chara/Frisk, monsterkid, and Temmie are all "they". Some have accepted that He is a "he", and some have accepted that she is a "she. Yet nonetheless our overall opinions of them don't rely on which is actually correct. And regardless of if they date boys or girls, wear skirts or pants, or like pink rather than blue, their actions prove to be so gender flexible that we still don't really know. Yet we don't really HAVE to know either. So would such a thing be able to happen with "characters"(real people) IRL just like it does online?

Now just to illustrate: let's say, a person's interests in certain topical things are flexible enough (gender wise) in a social setting and that person also is equally as masculine as they are feminine in physique and appearance as well as in their mannerisms in a social environment, and they just so happen to have a unisex name, like jessi or something, and they had just the right vocal tone to make it questionable, or even no voice at all. And let's say that they are bisexual and are open about wearing female clothing and male clothing while still remaining gender neutral. (they may wear baggy cargo pants but also a tight, thin hoodie/jacket, but never something like a short skirt or a tuxedo.) Also, let's say that such a person also never use a public bathroom, since most of those are separated by gender. Could they be reffered to as both "him" and "her" by different people in public and without verification still be accepted as "they" by society. If someone asked, "are you a "girl" or a boy?" And they just refused to answer or just shrugged or said "whatever makes you comfortable to refer to me as." Would that possibly be acceptable to society IRL? Could someone really be gender neutral IRL?

Now I am aware that the whole "by law"/"via documentation" thing may make such a thing difficult to do given a professional setting, but I'm just asking if this could be a reality in a purely casual setting mainly.

TL;DR: Could someone really be accepted as gender neutral IRL by society as a whole without verification being given either way? Is there such thing as "they", or "he" and "she" IRL, just like with certain characters online?

I recently saw something about this on Twitter. There is a United States Navy veteran who was born intersex and the surgeries that were intended to make them a "normal" kid ended up making them essentially sexless.

Anyway, long story short: they can't get a passport to leave the country because despite the documentation proving they don't have either a male or female sex thanks to the idiocy of doctors, the policies in place require them to be listed as either a male or a female. It's a pretty nasty situation, and it's through no fault of the individual who is being put through all this.

R'D said:
Actually Australian citizens for the past year or so to my knowledge can legally register themselves to be just that... just saying.
Dont see that ever happening in the US any time soon thou, of all "western" countries the US is one of the most socially backward... Its still fighting over races, hoW could one accept non-binary gender system when we cant even get over races, large parts of US legislature right this moment are working hard the reverse any and all rights given to LGBT...

Just because the US is behind others some aspects doesn't make them socially backwards. And if you want to bring up race while using Australia as a model of positive progress, well... they aren't without their issues as well.

You're either a boy or a girl. No inbetweens.

R-U-S-T-Y said:
You're either a boy or a girl. No inbetweens.

What about Attack Helicopters?

Mutisija said:
idk i dont really experiment with my gender identity like that.

Fair enough.

the few people who misgender me are... ...my parents.... ...with my parents i dont want to correct them because im still not out to them.

um, maybe I'm not understanding correctly, but how does that work exactly? I mean, do your parents legitimately not know if you are male or female physiologically? and if so, how; were you adopted and they just didn't check your gender and you never told them or something? And would that mean they would be okay with it if you decided to wear a dress or something in public one day? That's all very fascinating to me.

Or are you just referring to your social gender preference rather than your actual physical gender? Does your parents know that you are what you are but not know which you want to be socially, so they just switch back and forth when referring to you and you just don't correct them like you said? If that's the case then I'd love to have parents who are as socially accepting as yours seem to be.

R'D said:
Actually Australian citizens for the past year or so to my knowledge can legally register themselves to be just that... just saying.
Dont see that ever happening in the US any time soon thou, of all "western" countries the US is one of the most socially backward... Its still fighting over races, hoW could one accept non-binary gender system when we cant even get over races, large parts of US legislature right this moment are working hard the reverse any and all rights given to LGBT...

I need to move to Australia.

InannaEloah said:

Anyway, long story short: they can't get a passport to leave the country because despite the documentation proving they don't have either a male or female sex thanks to the idiocy of doctors, the policies in place require them to be listed as either a male or a female. It's a pretty nasty situation, and it's through no fault of the individual who is being put through all this.

Goddamn Red Tape at it's finest!

I wonder if they could get into Astorska, though. Seriously. I mean, instead of a bunch of red tape, in Astorska it's more of a "prove it" and go from there. If they prove to be no gender upon inspection and that correlates with documentation, would they be let in?

Furrin_Gok said:
What about Attack Helicopters?

You beat me to it, you sly Gok, you.

Furrin_Gok said:
What about Attack Helicopters?

I always refer to my aircraft as females

R-U-S-T-Y said:
I always refer to my aircraft as females

Makes sense.

Fenrick said:
Just because the US is behind others some aspects doesn't make them socially backwards. And if you want to bring up race while using Australia as a model of positive progress, well... they aren't without their issues as well.

Yes it is because people in the US are regressing to earlier principles that didnt respect peoples given rights. And dont put words in my mouth, i wasnt making Australia as a symbol of positive progress i was making a objective response to the OP's question if there is a society and/or government that accepts people as being nether or both/all in gender

R'D said:
i wasnt making Australia as a symbol of positive progress i was making a objective response to the OP's question if there is a society and/or government that accepts people as being nether or both/all in gender

I do appreciate the response. It really was enlightening.

Kristal_Candeo said:
um, maybe I'm not understanding correctly, but how does that work exactly? I mean, do your parents legitimately not know if you are male or female physiologically? and if so, how; were you adopted and they just didn't check your gender and you never told them or something? And would that mean they would be okay with it if you decided to wear a dress or something in public one day? That's all very fascinating to me.

Or are you just referring to your social gender preference rather than your actual physical gender? Does your parents know that you are what you are but not know which you want to be socially, so they just switch back and forth when referring to you and you just don't correct them like you said? If that's the case then I'd love to have parents who are as socially accepting as yours seem to be.

my parents know my assigned gender and based on that, they just assume that im just tomboy. because im not out to them yet as trans, i do not try to correct them when they refer me as girl or daughter.

InannaEloah said:
I recently saw something about this on Twitter. There is a United States Navy veteran who was born intersex and the surgeries that were intended to make them a "normal" kid ended up making them essentially sexless.

Anyway, long story short: they can't get a passport to leave the country because despite the documentation proving they don't have either a male or female sex thanks to the idiocy of doctors, the policies in place require them to be listed as either a male or a female. It's a pretty nasty situation, and it's through no fault of the individual who is being put through all this.

Wouldn't they still have a sex even if they had mutilated genitals? It's not like a woman who gets a hysterectomy has their sex documented as "sexless".

Mutisija said:
my parents know my assigned gender and based on that, they just assume that im just tomboy. because im not out to them yet as trans, i do not try to correct them when they refer me as girl or daughter.

Ah, I see.

Thanks.

This is an interesting topic, that I don't have any real perspective on, as I was born male and identify as male. Acknowledging this, I have a question.

I understand that for some, the gender one was born as is not their preferred gender identity, and it feels wrong when labeled as their born gender.

How does being gender neutral work? Or gender fluid? Is gender neutral indecision, a decision to be undecided, or something more? When one is gender fluid, how do others address them with proper pronouns when their pronouns are always changing? And for that matter, what changes in the person in question that causes these changes in identity?

I'm interested in hearing perspectives that differ vastly from my own, if anybody is interested in sharing.

MultiverseEquine said:
This is an interesting topic, that I don't have any real perspective on, as I was born male and identify as male. Acknowledging this, I have a question.

I understand that for some, the gender one was born as is not their preferred gender identity, and it feels wrong when labeled as their born gender.

How does being gender neutral work? Or gender fluid? Is gender neutral indecision, a decision to be undecided, or something more? When one is gender fluid, how do others address them with proper pronouns when their pronouns are always changing? And for that matter, what changes in the person in question that causes these changes in identity?

I'm interested in hearing perspectives that differ vastly from my own, if anybody is interested in sharing.

well im genderfluid (tho i prefer to label myself just as nonbinary) i just stick with they pronouns all the time even if i sometimes identify as female or male (which doesnt happen often to me, my identity usually hangs somewhere between agender and male). but i do know some genderfluid people who are okay with all pronouns and some who just tell to their friends like "oh, btw today im boy so he pronouns please!"

R'D said:
Yes it is because people in the US are regressing to earlier principles that didnt respect peoples given rights. And dont put words in my mouth, i wasnt making Australia as a symbol of positive progress i was making a objective response to the OP's question if there is a society and/or government that accepts people as being nether or both/all in gender

Are they in this case, though? I don't see how. Transgendered people were a joke at best not too long ago in most western nations. Just because there's some resistance doesn't mean there's any regression.

Fenrick said:
Are they in this case, though? I don't see how. Transgendered people were a joke at best not too long ago in most western nations. Just because there's some resistance doesn't mean there's any regression.

resistance is one thing, but US states arnt resisting they are reversing liberties that everyone should have had sence the US was founded but till the past 2 and a half dacades were never respected. Many groups that want to return us to the early days are on the rise...

Not much diferent in europe, we have neo-nazi parties gaining in control over there.

@Fenrick:

@R'D:

Okay, that's enough you guys. Come on, now.

While you both may very well have a point, this is not an issue to be discussed in this particular forum thread. We are not here to argue wether or not a certain society is to be considered as progressing/regressing on the implications of the "gender" issue. We are only here to speak of the issue freely from the individual standpoint, regardless of a certain culture, country, or society's progressiveness to accept a transgender person as a normal part of society.

To put it breifly, this topic is meant to be discussed either by seeing the gender issue from the inside looking out, not the outside looking in, or just purely subjectively. We are here to ask if the whole of society, or at least the society we as an individual live in, can accept a person's Gender Neutrality, not which society is better at such a thing than others.

This isn't meant to be debate based on nationality, so please don't make it one.

If anyone wants to have such a debate, please take it to another forum thread apart from this one.

Thank you.

Kristal_Candeo said:

Im very sorry i didnt mean to derail this discussion^^;

MultiverseEquine said:
This is an interesting topic, that I don't have any real perspective on, as I was born male and identify as male. Acknowledging this, I have a question.

I understand that for some, the gender one was born as is not their preferred gender identity, and it feels wrong when labeled as their born gender.

How does being gender neutral work? Or gender fluid? Is gender neutral indecision, a decision to be undecided, or something more? When one is gender fluid, how do others address them with proper pronouns when their pronouns are always changing? And for that matter, what changes in the person in question that causes these changes in identity?

I'm interested in hearing perspectives that differ vastly from my own, if anybody is interested in sharing.

Depends on culture. While many of today's cultures typically only accept the two genders, there have been some cultures that recognize a third gender. American Indians call them two spirits. For example, in Navajo culture, the nadle (their term for a two spirit) can marry men or women and also have privileges and duties exclusive to their gender.

So accepting and integrating a third (or more) gender, even a neutral one, is theoretically possible. But deeply ingrained traditional thinking that's reinforced by similar minds thinking the same things is very difficult to change. Some cultures would have an easier time of it than others, and some might not even be able to change enough while they exist.

R-U-S-T-Y said:
You're either a boy or a girl. No inbetweens.

intersex is real, just not that common.

treos said:
intersex is real, just not that common.

He didn't say male or female - he said boy or girl. The former are biological terms, the latter are social constructs.

Biologically speaking, most human beings are at least slightly intersex - it's simply not plausible to have "100% only" one gender's traits or the other. Many men experience gynecomastia ("manboobs") and many women grow hair on their chins or legs.

What we think of as "properly" intersex is slightly uncommon, but under-reported because doctors casually surgically alter the child into one sex or the other at birth, usually causing catastrophic problems for the child later in life. (See Cheryl Chase.)

Oh boy it's another gender thread.

TheKvltGoat said:
Oh boy it's another gender thread.

Unfortunately they seem prone to turning into total shitshows...

y'all need to chill

Fenrick said:
Unfortunately they seem prone to turning into total shitshows...

y'all need to chill

You know, if they keep popping up and they all seem to go the same way, that leads me to wondering... did I ever tell you the definition of insanity?

Im nonbinary but Im fine with people calling me by male pronouns because its easier for them honestly.

If it were up to me Id prefer to not and stick to gender neutral terms butenglish speakers like to use he or she rather than they.

Dunno if that helps you too much.

Also @the same guys who came to derail my thread. Maybe you percieve these threads as going nowhere because you continue to intentionally derail them and then leave when you either find you cant or give up.

GDelscribe said:
Also @the same guys who came to derail my thread. Maybe you percieve these threads as going nowhere because you continue to intentionally derail them and then leave when you either find you cant or give up.

Not me, I'm just a bored idiot with no understanding of the topic and too much time on my hands, sorry.

GDelscribe said:
Im nonbinary but Im fine with people calling me by male pronouns because its easier for them honestly.

If it were up to me Id prefer to not and stick to gender neutral terms butenglish speakers like to use he or she rather than they.

Dunno if that helps you too much.

Properly speaking, "they" cannot refer to a singular entity, only a plural.

Unfortunately, English does not have the advanced pronoun forms that Latin languages like Spanish have, so we're a bit limited in how we can refer to people.

For reference, Spanish has the following mountain of pronouns:

• yo (I, me)
• tú ("you", informal)
• él (he singular)
• ellos (he plural)
• ella (she singular)
• ellas (she plural)
• Ud. / Usted (you or they single; neuter; similar to using "sir" as pronoun)
• Uds. / Ustedes (you or they plural; neuter; similar to using "sirs" as pronoun)
• nosotros (we)
• vosotros (you plural; only some dialects have it, others use Ustedes)

If English had a word equivalent to Ud., it would refer to anyone without implying a gender. But alas, we don't.

FibS said:
Properly speaking, "they" cannot refer to a singular entity, only a plural.

Unfortunately, English does not have the advanced pronoun forms that Latin languages like Spanish have, so we're a bit limited in how we can refer to people.

For reference, Spanish has the following mountain of pronouns:

• yo (I, me)
• tú ("you", informal)
• él (he singular)
• ellos (he plural)
• ella (she singular)
• ellas (she plural)
• Ud. / Usted (you or they single; neuter; similar to using "sir" as pronoun)
• Uds. / Ustedes (you or they plural; neuter; similar to using "sirs" as pronoun)
• nosotros (we)
• vosotros (you plural; only some dialects have it, others use Ustedes)

If English had a word equivalent to Ud., it would refer to anyone without implying a gender. But alas, we don't.

Well actually no, you're wrong.

Singular They has been a word for a lot longer than plural they, he or she actually.

Its a derivation of Thou, thoust and Thee.

FibS said:
Properly speaking, "they" cannot refer to a singular entity, only a plural.

that in fact incorrect information. even oxford dictonary says that singular they is grammatically correct

Do you mean "that is in fact correct information"? The link does exclaim that it can be used for unspecified genders.

GDelscribe said:
Well actually no, you're wrong.

Singular They has been a word for a lot longer than plural they, he or she actually.

Its a derivation of Thou, thoust and Thee.

It's been used in informal speech since the 1300s. It has also consistently been labelled as incorrect since the 1300s, like most other informal speech.

I can illustrate the problem pretty quickly:

• He is moving to another city.
• She is moving to another city.
• They is moving to another city.

"They" doesn't agree with third-person singular verbs. It only works with plural third-person (they are) or second-person (you are).

Not only is that argument intentionally built on a logical fallacy but the oxford dictionary definition above literally states it can refer to a single person with unspecified gender.

If i said "Mister Rogers wants a Sweater, so they should buy one." Its grammatically correct.

Regardless of your oppinions on the situation you can actually refer to a single person as they. Informal or not. He and she were once considered rude and informal too so don't give me that elitist bs lmao

FibS said:
It's been used in informal speech since the 1300s. It has also consistently been labelled as incorrect since the 1300s, like most other informal speech.

I can illustrate the problem pretty quickly:

• He is moving to another city.
• She is moving to another city.
• They is moving to another city.

"They" doesn't agree with third-person singular verbs. It only works with plural third-person (they are) or second-person (you are).

Language, for better or worse, is not completely dictated by sensible rules that authorities on the subject declare. It is used however people see fit.
"They are" is used to refer to unidentified individuals all the time. The only person I've known to care about that form of usage was my English professor.