Thinking about it, this is going at this the wrong way. I need to approach this from a different angle. Request/suggestion withdrawn for now :)

Implicating cybernetic_arm → cybernetic_limb
Link to implication]

Reason:

Hello! this started with

OneMoreAnonymous said:
cybernetic_limbs to cyberlimb

and snowballed from there. This is generally about cybernetics as a whole.

(also, it is late and I am tired, so if something seems idiotic, I probably made a mistake.)

I think Cybernetic_limb is the more 'natural' of the two.

(for the record, cybernetic_limb has 20 posts, cyberlimb has 28)

Whew.

My opinion: cybernetics seems to be the favored tag (especially as 'cybernetic' is aliased to 'cybernetics' and cyborg and bionic both imply cybernetics.

(on that note.. what the heck is the difference between cybernetic and bionic?? I can't see anything...)

As such...

Also of note are various robo/cyber eye tags

There is also...

So... Clearly a cybernetic limb IS a prosthetic/mechanical/artificial/metal limb... and it is(mostly) ALL of these things, but all of these tags are overkill.

I propose:
1. Picking a proper term for a replacement limb ( prosthetic_limb is my vote)
2. Pick a term to use for non-futuristic artificial limbs (as in, for peglegs and hook_hands etc) (perhaps modern_prosthetic_limb? non-cybernetic_Prosthesis? non-futuristic? traditional?)
3. tidy up the to-be-aliased tags a bit
4. alias most of the prosthetic/mechnical/artifical limb tags away to the chosen tag
5. Set up appropriate implications: (as an example)
-> pegleg implies non-cybernetic_prosthesis
-> non-cybernetic_prosthesis implies prosthetic_limb
-> cybernetic_limb implies prosthetic_limb

.... okay.. almost done...

There are a few others that need addressing too--other cybernetic/robotic/bionic parts like hands, feet, ears, penises, torsos (as seen here: post #1369429 ) ... but I've spent WAY too much time here, and robot hands aren't very popular, so complicated implications arn't really needed. This is more a note for the inevitable wikipages. :)

Whew. There. I'm going back to bed.

New: Biomechanical Aliases...

There are only a few each of these currently tagged, but all told around a dozen-ish.
(I've also untagged a few that were basically in no way biomechanical, cybernetic, or anything.)

Makes sense to me, +1.

going through cybernetics and tagging missing parts so that the various arm and leg tags get more use :)

I've started tagging cybernetic_attachment for posts with 'other' mechanical bodyparts.

Like post #1382664 or.. ah.. ..hm.. Tony Stark's chest-reactor thing. Or a patch of robo-face. Maybe mechanical knee replacement, though maybe that should be another tag?

Anyway, I'm pretty sure there could be a better name, but It's not too hard to swap one tag out for another. Suggestions? :) Cybernetic_attachment, other_cybernetic_parts, Cybernetic_accessory? I think I like Cybernetic_accessory.

Added a section on Biomechanics:

New: Biomechanical Aliases...

• biomechanical -> cybernetics
• biomechanic -> cybernetics
• biomechanics -> cybernetics

I feel like the tag chain is getting awfully long here:

biomechanical -> cybernetics -> cybernetic_limb -> cybernetic_arm

So basically just by a character having a cybernetic arm that image will have 3 additional tags added, just because of the arm.

To me I don't think we need cybernetic_limb...90% of the stuff under the cybernetics tag is going to involve a cybernetic_limb of some type, it's kind of redundant. I would alias cybernetic_limb along with everything you were planning on aliasing to it into cybernetics and call it a day.

Not sure we need biomechanical either. What is the use case for such a tag? The only things that I KNOW are biomechanical because of lore are Transformers and the warframes from Warframe ...both of which could probably be more simply tagged as robot and/or android. We really don't know that much about the cellular structure of a robotic-looking creature at a glance...we don't know if they're "living" in the sense that would be required for them to be considered biomechancial...it goes against TWYS.

So now the chain is simply: cybernetics -> cybernetic_arm ... much simpler.

Also this:

post #1382664

Is not a cybernetic accessory...those are just insectoid mouth-parts.

Dyrone said:
I feel like the tag chain is getting awfully long here:

biomechanical -> cybernetics -> cybernetic_limb -> cybernetic_arm

So basically just by a character having a cybernetic arm that image will have 3 additional tags added, just because of the arm.

You misunderstand.

I am proposing that Biomechanical is aliased to cybernetics. So if someone tags 'biomechanics' it's replaced with 'cybernetics'. (The things currently scattered through the various 'biomech*' tags are a combination of cybernetics and weird Geiger-esque exoskeleton alienstuff. those SHOULD be tagged, but I'm not sure what those should be tagged as. Biomechanics may be the right word, but I think it's easily confused for anything 'cyborgy'.)

However, if a character does have a cybernetic arm, they would, in fact, have 3 tags: Cybernetic_arm, cybernetic_limb and cybernetic, you are correct. This is because people are using the *limb tags without using any other arm or leg tags, so clearly, people think that cybernetic_limb is worth tagging.

Cybernetics is the 'canine' to cybernetic_limb's 'fox'. Cybernetic arm is 'arctic_fox'.

To me I don't think we need cybernetic_limb...90% of the stuff under the cybernetics tag is going to involve a cybernetic_limb of some type, it's kind of redundant. I would alias cybernetic_limb along with everything you were planning on aliasing to it into cybernetics and call it a day.

I'd agree, except, like I said, people were using the 'limbs' tag as it was I figure most people are into arms/legs, but looking through the art (I've been adding arm/leg/eye/ear/tail/etc to tags all afternoon) people have a lot of assorted 'cybernetic' additions. So I could see searching for cybernetic_limb to try and filter out some of the other stuff.

And, since there's a lot of cybernetic stuff that isn't arm/legs, it seems logical to encompass those two with a common tag. Since people were already using it.

Not sure we need biomechanical either. What is the use case for such a tag? The only thing I can think of that seems biomechanical to me would be like...Transformers or the "warframes from Warframe"http://gameboost.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Warframe.jpg ...both of which could probably be more simply tagged as robot and/or android. We really don't know that much about the cellular structure of a robotic-looking creature at a glance...we don't know if their "living" in the sense that would be required for them to be considered biomechancial...it goes against TWYS.

That's why I was saying to alias biomechanic* away to cybernetic. :P <3

Also this:

post #1382664

Is not a cybernetic accessory...those are just insect mouth-parts.

Well, if you look,they're rather regularly shaped--smooth rods, round joints. That and no insect mouth parts actually look like that, but furry art. But, hey, whatever. It might be interesting to someone looking for 'weird' cybernetics. Or for insect mouthparts. :)

It was tagged cybernetics when I found it.

But if you'd like some other examples of cybernetic accessories (or whatever)

post #1366085 - has matrix-style bio port things on temple and hip.
post #225285 - has some nature of cyborg wings. They could be armor or something, absolutly. but that is probably honestly true for 50% of the 'cybernetics' tag
post #1367527 - appears to have a cybernetic hood of some sort.

You can browse through 'em here cybernetic_attachment -- I haven't tagged too many yet, as I've only gone through one page (75 posts, if that vrries) of the cybernetics tag so far, looking for things to tag.

SnowWolf said:
You misunderstand.

I am proposing that Biomechanical is aliased to cybernetics.

I supposed I did misunderstand...biomechanical should probably just be done away with though instead of aliased. It's only tagged on FOUR images so far, it's not a popular tag...and like I said it's related to transformers/warframe type robots more than anything, so if someone tries adding it in the future to one of those images that would be a bad tag. A transformer should not be tagged with cybernetics, there is no merging of flesh and machine there, it's all machine.

SnowWolf said:
And, since there's a lot of cybernetic stuff that isn't arm/legs, it seems logical to encompass those two with a common tag. Since people were already using it.

By "already using it" do you mean 11 tags? That's hardly anything and no reason to keep a tag around. It seems like the tag would only encompass TWO tags...cybernetic_arm and cybernetic_leg...a grouping tag for only two tags doesn't seem necessary.

SnowWolf said:
Well, if you look,they're rather regularly shaped--smooth rods, round joints.

That's kind of how a lot of insect parts look up close. It just seems more likely that a hybrid creature of that nature, with no other mechanical attachments, would have insect mouth parts rather than some weird cybernetic mouth attachment (both are weird tbh, I just find the former to be less weird).

As far as tagging cybernetic_accessory that also just seems like tag bloat to me...do people care if a character has a cybernetic ear or a cybernetic nipple? Probably not...that all can be caught by cybernetics without making an extra tag for all the little cybernetic trinkets that can litter a character's body.

Also I would like to propose cybernetic_faceplate for when some or all of a character's face is replaced by cybernetics. I see that quite a bit.

Dyrone said:
I supposed I did misunderstand...biomechanical should probably just be done away with though instead of aliased. It's only tagged on FOUR images so far, it's not a popular tag...and like I said it's related to transformers/warframe type robots more than anything, so if someone tries adding it in the future to one of those images that would be a bad tag. A transformer should not be tagged with cybernetics, there is no merging of flesh and machine there, it's all machine.

I agree that a transformer's a robot--as for biomechanical, I agree, though there are more than 4 images. Biomechanical, biomechanic and biomechanics all had about a dozen posts (all together) *until* I came through and untagged several images that were not cybernetics, biomechanics or anything particularly identifiable (after all, if they'd been aliased into cybernetics overnight, they'd have been lost, so I made sure that they would be properly tagged.) (most of them were odd body horror that didn't really look like... anything.)

That said, a dozen posts over 3 tags isn't necessarily enough for there to be aliases involved, I agree. It'd be easy to just clean 'em out. But, I started the thread with the idea of being complete, so I mentioned them as well for other people to have opinions on. :)

By "already using it" do you mean 11 tags? That's hardly anything and no reason to keep a tag around. It seems like the tag would only encompass TWO tags...cybernetic_arm and cybernetic_leg...a grouping tag for only two tags doesn't seem necessary.

okay... I really really truely don't mean this one the way it sounds, so I'm sorry if I sound pissy, I don't mean to be.

But, are you certain you read my post entirely? Including the drop down sections?

I ask this because, cybernetic_limb, yes, has 11 posts. However:

cybernetic_limb - 20
cyberlimb - 28
robotic_limbs - 8
robotic_limb - 2
cybernetic_limb - 11
cyber_limb - 1
bionic_limb - 1

People are tagging "limb" a lot. (for contrast, robotic_arm had 105 posts and was the MOST TAGGED cybernetic-limb-thing)... it's not JUST cyberlimb and cybernetic limb involved.

Past that, there's also about 5 more tags detailing artificial limbs and prostheics etc. There's not a tagging standard for this stuff yet and the tags are under utilized. There are over 3000 cybernetics posts, yet tags like cybernetic_arm were rarely tagged.

as for arms and legs being the only limbs... there's also tails and wings!

That's kind of how a lot of insect parts look up close. It just seems more likely that a hybrid creature of that nature, with no other mechanical attachments, would have insect mouth parts rather than some weird cybernetic mouth attachment (both are weird tbh, I just find the former to be less weird).

*shrugs* it was tagged cybernetic originally so I gave it the benefit of the doubt. That single picture's not the point.

As far as tagging cybernetic_accessory that also just seems like tag bloat to me...do people care if a character has a cybernetic ear or a cybernetic nipple? Probably not...that all can be caught by cybernetics without making an extra tag for all the little cybernetic trinkets that can litter a character's body.

People care about all sorts of things. That's the point of tags. As well, it prevents additional tag bloat by encouraging people to not tag bio_port and neural_lace and hyper_light_tubing and stuff. One tag for 'everything else', as it were.

Also I would like to propose cybernetic_faceplate for when some or all of a character's face is replaced by cybernetics. I see that quite a bit.

Oh, I like that one I lot. I was tagging cybernetic_head but faceplate is WAY better! THANKS! :D I'll add that one to my list!

SnowWolf said:
I agree that a transformer's a robot--as for biomechanical, I agree

If you agree then you should probably edit your original post to remove the biomechanical alias suggestions. It'll reduce confusion.

SnowWolf said:
I ask this because, cybernetic_limb, yes, has 11 posts. However:

cybernetic_limb - 20
cyberlimb - 28
robotic_limbs - 8
robotic_limb - 2
cybernetic_limb - 11
cyber_limb - 1
bionic_limb - 1

OK, that's still not very popular even with all the disparate tags added up...no one is going to miss it if we just alias all those to cybernetics.

SnowWolf said:
as for arms and legs being the only limbs...there's also tails and wings!

Yes there are wings, rarely, but a tail is not a limb unless it's prehensile.

SnowWolf said:
People care about all sorts of things. That's the point of tags. As well, it prevents additional tag bloat by encouraging people to not tag bio_port and neural_lace and hyper_light_tubing and stuff. One tag for 'everything else', as it were.

First off, I've never seen anyone tag with such minute attention to detail, and if they did I would tell them to tone it down. None of the examples you mentioned are tagged for instance. There is a level of tagging that is too far.

Secondly, we don't need a tag like cybernetic_accessory...it's too broad. With nearly every cyborg I see there's some little metallic tidbit on their body that could be construed as an "accessory"...it's going to end up being tagged on 90% of cybernetics posts in the end. Not worth it.

Also, can you even think of a similar tag...have you ever seen another such tag that's a grouping for "everything else"...it doesn't exist, cause it doesn't need to exist. Usually "everything_else" is just caught by the group tag which would be cybernetics in this case. I'm saying this cause if there are 3,000 images to sort through we should only tag what is absolutely necessary, and not worry about fluff.

SnowWolf said:
Oh, I like that one I lot. I was tagging cybernetic_head but faceplate is WAY better!

Glad you like it.

SnowWolf said:
Added a section on Biomechanics:

New: Biomechanical Aliases...

• biomechanical -> cybernetics
• biomechanic -> cybernetics
• biomechanics -> cybernetics

though biomechnaical is sometimes used to refer robots that are fully or partially constructed using organic materials. like this. the term does not exclusively mean cybernetics

Dyrone said:
If you agree then you should probably edit your original post to remove the biomechanical alias suggestions. It'll reduce confusion.

Except I then described exactly why I wrote it down in the first place. Completeness. I"d rather leave it up there so that others can also offer their two cents on it, since, between you and I, the only arguement against it is that there were not a lot of posts tagged with it. Let others weigh in on it. I'm just trying to clean up the tag.

edit: Upon reading another reply and doing some research... and discovering that HR Giger described his work as 'biomechnical,' I've removed them from the original post, for now. They probably need some work (for example, biomechanic and biomechanics aliasing to biomechnical) but that's for further and separate discussion.

>limbs
OK, that's still not very popular even with all the disparate tags added up...no one is going to miss it if we just alias all those to cybernetics.

*sigh* NONE of the tags were very popular. Except "cybernetics". No tag had many posts. So maybe I'm totally wasting my time and nothing should be tagged here?

Let me give you numbers: there were 3104 cybernetics posts. If I take every single robot_arm, bionic_leg, cyberlimb, tail, eye etc tag, and add them up, there were 353 tags that SHOULD imply cybernetics. That is 11.3%. So clearly, no one wants these tags and they should be deleted entirely? right??

Yes there are wings, rarely, but a tail is not a limb unless it's prehensile.

okay. Prehensile means it can hold objects. So cat claws are prehensile, giraffe tongues are prehensile, rhino lips, elephant penises, etc. I'm not going to guess which anthropomorphic animals have prehensile tails, wince they're not really based on realistic anatomy anymore. And by and large, I image if someone has had their tail replaced with robot parts it's probably going to be prehensile.

Regardless, I'll go ahead and admit that maybe people wouldn't want cybernetic tails to IMPLY cybernetic limbs. I understand your vote -1 towards that. okay. moving on.

First off, I've never seen anyone tag with such minute attention to detail, and if they did I would tell them to tone it down. None of the examples you mentioned are tagged for instance. There is a level of tagging that is too far.

that's the point?? tags with one or two posts tend to get deleted because it's too fine a detail. Some of them just aren't tagged enough. Sometimes they're there to help you find a picture again later. Regardless, That is why I"m proposing a blanket tag to cover all of those little details.

Secondly, we don't need a tag like cybernetic_accessory...it's too broad. With nearly every cyborg I see there's some little metallic tidbit on their body that could be construed as an "accessory"...it's going to end up being tagged on 90% of cybernetics posts in the end. Not worth it.

*gazes up towards the sky a moment*

So, I am currently tagging: Cybernetic arms, hands, legs, feet, tail, eye, wings, torso, penis, pussy, spine, faceplate/head and ears.

(spine is posts like post #1377635. Ears may or may not get enough use. We'll see.)

Between all of these tags, there's not a lot left. random metal plates are not cybernetic accessories, they're just bits of cyborg-armor. I didn't say "tag every metallic tidbit" I said for other, presumably significant, patches of mechanics--like a chest implant, wings-on-a-non-winged-species, or similar. not "a bit of iron on the knuckles"

Also, again, having already gone through 75 cybernetics posts during dinner yesterday, *my* tagging ratio was something like like 20%.

Also, can you even think of a similar tag...have you ever seen another such tag that's a grouping for "everything else"...it doesn't exist, cause it doesn't need to exist. Usually "everything_else" is just caught by the group tag which would be cybernetics in this case. I'm saying this cause if there are 3,000 images to sort through we should only tag what is absolutely necessary, and not worry about fluff.

waist_accessory - for the broad collection of "pretty stuff that isn't a belt" that goes around ones' waist.. including belly chains, lengths of gauzy fabric, strands of leather and beads, chain chest harnesses and the occasional non-functional loincloth.

hair_accessory - for hair sticks, clipsm,, weird crown things, levitating crowns, Oriental headgear, giant bobbles, beads, cuffs, bands and ties

penis_accessory - for penis bows, penis socks, penis ribbons, penis rings, penis corsets, penis necklaces, penis armor, penis barding and more.

accessories - for horn rings, wing cuffs, thigh-bells, bells-tied-to-a-bow-attached-to-an-ear, weird-head-tentacle-cuffs, antlers drapped in garland, flowers behind ears

Of if you'd like to be a little more specific... unusual_wings, unusual_cum, unusual_penis,, unusual_pussy, unusual_feces.

Unusual_cum seems to cover cumming water, blue glowing fluids, radioactive pink stuff, oil, green goo, molten lava, fuckin' sparkly light and stars (not to be confused with cumming rainbows, which is a tag somewhere)

I mean, I guess I could take some inspiration from piercing and start trying to name everything? cybernetic_dataport? cybernetic_headjack? cybernetic_body_armor?

I figured it would be simpler and involve less trouble just to hit them with a catch_all.

... in other news, 3000 images is actually not that big of a number. I've taken on worse tagging projects in the past. I wouldn't be standing here talking about tagging things if I wasn't willing to do it.

Commander_Eggplant said:
though biomechnaical is sometimes used to refer robots that are fully or partially constructed using organic materials. like this. the term does not exclusively mean cybernetics

This is a fair point! but, it doesn't seem to be being used that way, mostly. Let's see...

It looks like I untagged 2 images out of biomechanical/biomechanics/biomechanic ...

post #786332 which doesn't really seem to have that... aesthetic. It's more silent hill body horror, to me.
post #597676 has some little robotic larvae or tentacles. I"m not really sure what those should be tagged as (so I tagged them as robotic tentacles for right now. My plan's to filter through all of the non-robot robotic/bionic/etc tags eventually (not too hard. the tags are REALLY under utilized...) and I'll tag it properly then. I imagine there's going to be SOME form of tag for robo-larva or something.

edit: got distracted, sorry! Uh, point being, most of the posts in biomech* aren't really illustrating that aesthetic. and I feel like there's a better word to describe that giger-esque look, but maybe there isn't. It is quite subjective though. I'd love to see more stuff tagged with that aliens-bio-armor-carapace look, though.

Just right now, most of the pictures there aren't really embodying it.

post #965535 post #474082 post #471256

all of those definitely DO have a common aesthetic to them, though.

maybe we should call that biomechanical? i dunno. nothing about it looks 'mechanical' to me. Though Giger hiumself called it 'biomechanical'... so I guess considering his fame, it might be considered to be the 'title' for that sort of look?

Okay.... I've actually been chewing on this for a while and I think that I'm approaching this the wrong way. This is actually a discussion about prosthetics of all sorts and shapes.

What I'm suggesting here would work, but it could be done a lot better and a lot more elegantly.

So, I'm going to withdraw my post and... start a new thread that will better address the bag of fish I've found here. I'd just rewrite my initial post, but it'll just cause a lot of confusion for anyone trying to read the thread for the first time. Plus 'cyberlimb' is not really descriptive as to what the conversation *is* any more. It's like titling a thread "fries" when you're really talking about the whole value meal.

(obviously, if anyone would rather I do otherwise, let me know. I'll be over here combing through my thoughts.)

SnowWolf said:
Except I then described exactly why I wrote it down (biomechanical) in the first place. Completeness.

I mean...the topic is your opinion on these matters, and with your dense, verbose writing style it's hard enough to read as is without trying to lend credence to every side of the argument. If you don't think something belongs then remove it, perhaps write a short sentence explaining why you chose not to include it, and leave it at that.

SnowWolf said:
Let me give you numbers: there were 3104 cybernetics posts. If I take every single robot_arm, bionic_leg, cyberlimb, tail, eye etc tag, and add them up, there were 353 tags that SHOULD imply cybernetics. That is 11.3%. So clearly, no one wants these tags and they should be deleted entirely? right??

I'm not argueing that everything should just be cybernetics and leave it there, ofc I think tags like cybernetic_arm are useful, I was just arguing that cybernetic_limb is not.

SnowWolf said:
okay. Prehensile means it can hold objects. So cat claws are prehensile, giraffe tongues are prehensile, rhino lips, elephant penises, etc.

No, it means it can grasp objects...a claw is not prehensile...something being stuck on a claw is not the same as grasping. A giraffe's tongue is, I suppose, but really lets not think too deeply about this, I have seen zero cybernetic giraffe tongues.

SnowWolf said:
I'm not going to guess which anthropomorphic animals have prehensile tails

No shit, that's kind of the point of that statement...it's really impossible to know at a glance, so it's best not to include them as a limb when you're estimating how many tags would be included in cybernetic_limb.

SnowWolf said:
So, I am currently tagging: Cybernetic arms, hands, legs, feet, tail, eye, wings, torso, penis, pussy, spine, faceplate/head and ears.

Yeah, that's enough as is...ears, feet, hands, and torso might even be a bit much. The rest doesn't need to be tagged. It's just tag bloat at a certain point...a mostly cyborg character is going to have like 20 goddamned tags all relating to his cyberborgness...there comes a point where it's like...ok...that's enough.

SnowWolf said:
I figured it would be simpler and involve less trouble just to hit them with a catch_all.

Nope it's a dumb tag. On top of being too generic like I said before it's hard to pin down...we're already having an argument about it here, you're saying that not every cyber bit on a character's body would qualify as an "accessory"...so what does? That's a whole other can of worms right there.

SnowWolf said:
... in other news, 3000 images is actually not that big of a number. I've taken on worse tagging projects in the past. I wouldn't be standing here talking about tagging things if I wasn't willing to do it.

Again you're approaching this like "I'm going to do everything and fuck you cause it's my own little project and I can do it without you or anyone". Tagging is a communal effort, which is why I keep saying keep things simple so maybe, just maybe, you're not intimidating others in the future who might want to join in on tagging these sorts of things.

AS I said, I've mostly dropped this, but I'mma hit a few points...

Dyrone said:
I mean...the topic is your opinion on these matters, and with your dense, verbose writing style it's verbose enough as it is without trying to lend credence to every side of the argument.

I'm really and honestly confused as to how I can make this better. I'm addressing a big idea. My idea isn't perfect, it needs discussion. If I anticipate that saying "a should do b" and I anticipate someone will ask why, I may as well save myself the trouble, and explain why now. And it'll make it easier for other participants in the conversation if all the information's in one place. I do use a lot of words (probably too many). But I guess I expect people to be willing to read a bit.

Again you're approaching this like "I'm going to do everything and fuck you cause it's my own little project and I can do it without you or anyone".

Well, I mean. I'm saying "this is my opinion!" and you say "I disagree!"... the natural progression is for you and I to discuss the matter. Maybe we eventually agree, maybe we don't. But your disagreement doesn't mean I have to automatically agree with you, y'know? Just like you don't have to automatically agree with me, just because I defend my point.

Further, as far as 'my own little project goes'... I haven't changed anything but add some cybernetic_arm/leg/etc tags to some pictures. It is really, really easy to delete every instance of cybernetic_accessory (or whatever) if we all, mutually, decide it's a poor idea. I've changed a FEW tags on a FEW things because they really didn't fit. Even if, say, we decide that robot_arm is better than cybernetic_arm, it's really really easy to change that back.

I've been careful to NOT do anything irreversible, or overly frustrating for anyone.

When I say "it's only 3000 posts, I'm willing to do it", I'm not saying "and no one else can"... I'm just saying that I'm *willing* to do it. I've seen a lot of people, in the past, say "we should change this thing," get everyone excited about the idea, then declare that they're not willing to actually do any of the work. I've seen a lot of large scale projects die as a result of the amount of work it'd involve. So I'm saying "I am willing to do this, even if no one else wants to help." It doesn't mean I'm going to *act* without a majority agreement.

Tagging is a communal effort, which is why I keep saying keep things simple so maybe, just maybe, you're not intimidating others in the future who might want to join in on tagging these sorts of things

Believe me, I know that. I guess the thing is, I don't see what I was suggesting as complicated...

I'm sorry if I'm intimidating or anything. it's not my intention.

Anyway, as I said, I've stopped tilting at this windmill, the princess is in another castle.

If you have any recommendation to make my post more friendly/better, I'd love to get a PM or something <3

SnowWolf said:
I'm really and honestly confused as to how I can make this better.

If an idea has already been discussed then remove it as a possible idea for further discussion. That would help. It's quite annoying to have a big-ass discussion about something then being like "alright...but if anyone else still want to discuss this...it's still open!" That's counter-productive. You need to move forward at some point. If someone wants to bring it up again, they can and will.

SnowWolf said:
I've been careful to NOT do anything irreversible, or overly frustrating for anyone.

It would be frustrating to me if I opened a picture of a cyborg and there are 23 different tags denoting every little cyborg bit on that character. Tag bloat makes me angry.

SnowWolf said:
When I say "it's only 3000 posts, I'm willing to do it", I'm not saying "and no one else can"... I'm just saying that I'm *willing* to do it.

You're using that as an excuse as to why things don't have to be simple. "Things can be complex because I'll just do it all if I have to" is basically the jist of what you're saying. I'm saying tags should be simple and elegant and not too detailed because that kind of thing excludes people who don't revel in an extreme level of detail like you do.

We've already seen the will of the people on this...it's not high...seems like most of the time they'd like to just tag cybernetics and leave it at that so when you propose to overhaul that system piling a bunch of tags on it is just not wise.

SnowWolf said:
If you have any recommendation to make my post more friendly/better, I'd love to get a PM or something <3

I'm going to keep responding here. If you want this thread to die you can respond to me in a PM if you wish, or just not respond at all.

Dyrone said:
If an idea has already been discussed then remove it as a possible idea for further discussion. That would help. It's quite annoying to have a big-ass discussion about something then being like "alright...but if anyone else still want to discuss this...it's still open!" That's counter-productive. You need to move forward at some point. If someone wants to bring it up again, they can and will.

Thank you--though I'd be frustrated if I came into a discussion and was told "we already talked about that, your input is not needed." Plus I posted this less than 2 days ago. We've chatted about it a lot, but 2 days isn't a long time to spend away from the website. Plus, you and I didn't always agree on things (but did on others) so a third opinion would have been welcome.

It would be frustrating to me if I opened a picture of a cyborg and there are 23 different tags denoting every little cyborg bit on that character. Tag bloat makes me angry.

I'm not sure you're in a majority, no offense. I feel more frustration when I open a picture and find that there's no tag to describe something that I've found really interesting about the picture. I'm a big fan of tags.

You're using that as an excuse as to why things don't have to be simple. "Things can be complex because I'll just do it all if I have to" is basically the jist of what you're saying.

No, the two thoughts are not connected nessicarily. The gist of my 'complex' post was "Alias all these tags into one tag. Imply limb maybe. Imply cybernetic." and "Gosh, these tags are under utilized. I'll utilize them more"... you mostly seemed to object to the accessories or additions or whatever tag. and, like I said, adding the tag doesn't hurt anything, because it can always be deleted later.

I'm saying tags should be simple and elegant and not too detailed because that kind of thing excludes people who don't revel in an extreme level of detail like you do.

My general opinion on tags is that we don't need to tag every soda can, pizza crust, stuffed animal in the background. a forest, visible out a window interferes with people who want to find pictures going on IN a forest. But things that are part of the main point of a picture or take up significant screen realestate should be tagged. If that stuffed animal is being fucked, then that SHOULD be tagged. if she's eating pizza while masturbating with a soda can, then those SHOULD be tagged then.

Tag bloat is about useless tags that no one cares about. No one cares about the stuffed pikachu on the bed if they search for pikachu. What frustrates me is when I search for stuff and find that 50% of the pictures tagged with it are little background blobs. But let me search for stuff in the foreground, yeah?

At least, that's what it is for me. your milage, of course, obviously varies. :)

We've already seen the will of the people on this...it's not high...seems like most of the time they'd like to just tag cybernetics and leave it at that so when you propose to overhaul that system piling a bunch of tags on it is just not wise.

well, the will of the people in general seems a bit apathetic... That said, sometimes to make the change you want to see, you have to make the change. When peopel tag cybernetics, and the wikipage isn't anything at all, doesn't tell them what cybernetic-related tags there are, doesn't help them know what to tag. That's why the tags are everywhere. There are literally like 10 different tags that people have been using to describe a fake arm. Makes it really hard to tag when there's not a solid wikipage describing "These are the tags we use and when we use them."

I'm going to keep responding here. If you want this thread to die you can respond to me in a PM if you wish, or just not respond at all.

Well, alright, I guess.

SnowWolf said:
though I'd be frustrated if I came into a discussion and was told "we already talked about that, your input is not needed."

I never said deny people from talking about things, I already said if someone wishes to reopen a part of the discussion let them, just that if YOU agree with something then update YOUR post to reflect that so that it seems like shit is getting done.

SnowWolf said:
I'm not sure you're in a majority, no offense. I feel more frustration when I open a picture and find that there's no tag to describe something that I've found really interesting about the picture. I'm a big fan of tags.

I feel like you're gaslighting me, like there's a huge contingent of people who find all these little cybernetic bits interesting...if there was they would have tagged them long ago. In reality most people aren't that concerned about them...not saying is not worth the effort, but tags don't exist for the sake of tags...if people don't find them interesting enough to use them then they're worthless.

SnowWolf said:
My general opinion on tags is that we don't need to tag every soda can, pizza crust, stuffed animal in the background. a forest, visible out a window interferes with people who want to find pictures going on IN a forest. But things that are part of the main point of a picture or take up significant screen realestate should be tagged. If that stuffed animal is being fucked, then that SHOULD be tagged. If she's eating pizza while masturbating with a soda can, then those SHOULD be tagged then.

Of course I agree with that, but that's not really what this is about. We already know if a character is a cyborg then that is relevant enough to warrant its own tag...the question then becomes how much of that cyborg stuff do we bother tagging from there?

As far as fixing this problem...I think a lot of the work will need to be done by hand unfortunately. I say manually alias everything...and maybe rework your suggestion and repost it. Honestly idk why you crossed this one out, you can just edit it as you go, but whatever.

Dyrone said:
I never said deny people from talking about things, I already said if someone wishes to reopen a part of the discussion let them, just that if YOU agree with something then update YOUR post to reflect that so that it seems like shit is getting done.

agreeing with aspects doesn't mean the whole thing. BUT I see your point and will consider it from here out. <3 Thank you.

I feel like you're gaslighting me, like there's a huge contingent of people who find all these little cybernetic bits interesting...if there was they would have tagged them long ago.

Oh honey, no. I"m sorry if you feel that way. never my intention. Gaslight's an awful thing and I'd never ever want anyone to have to experience that.

I'm not talking about cyborg bits in particular, but tags in a vast general sort of way. Like.. the other day I found a picture of a deer who's antlers were literally tree branches, Very nature spirit, appeals to my celtic origins, etc. Couldn't find a tag for it. One of these pictures was full on, goddess visiting puny mortals in her forest. Gorgeous. It was tagged "nature spirit" ... There are 2 pictures tagged nature spirit... and the other was some weird fanart of something not very nature-y. found {[earth elemental}} which was similar, but different and still under tagged. finally found floral_fauna which is STILL not right, but it's at least in the same ballpark.

(pretty sure nature spirit's a bit redundant, but still)

There was another one in the last few days that I can't recall what they were. It's not that there are dozens of people who want plant antlers, it's so that people who DO can find them.

In reality most people aren't that concerned about them...not saying is not worth the effort, but tags don't exist for the sake of tags...if people don't find them interesting enough to use them then they're worthless.

I mean, I guess things have changed a bit? Back when I was here before, people were really into effective and numerous tags. Like, I think There were 4 or 5 people working on retagging colors to be more descriptive (blue fur, blue skin, blue light, rather than just 'blue' and 'fur' and stuff.) I know there was a whole group of busy bees who did their best to give every single post a background tag.

Maybe I am an old fossil leftover from a previous age, trying to enact great things in a world that doesn't care anymore. I dunno.

Of course I agree with that, but that's not really what this is about. We already know if a character is a cyborg then that is relevant enough to warrant its own tag...the question then becomes how much of that cyborg stuff do we bother tagging from there?

whereas, i ask, how do you define a cyborg? how do they differ--visually- from an android, or a robot? And again, what the heck is a bionic?

whereqas, I ask.. if all cyborgs have cybernetics, are all creatures with cybernetics cyborgs? Honestly a question I'd love to know the answer to.

I could--I'm not gonna-- bring up the whole robot/android/cyborg thing and try to restructure that into something a little more logical, but I'm not going to. Too big of a hill for this wolf.

which leads to the next thing...

As far as fixing this problem...I think a lot of the work will need to be done by hand unfortunately. I say manually alias everything...and maybe rework your suggestion and repost it. Honestly idk why you crossed this one out, you can just edit it as you go, but whatever.

I crossed it out because I realized that there was a bigger problem.

Essentially, there are several other types of prosthetic limbs besides cybernetic ones.

(obviously, the tag names that follow are very fake and being used as an example, rather than sugestions)

obviously every single fake arm should be considered a fake arm. but do we want steampunk_arm and cybernetic_arm and marshmallow_arm and spring_arm etc, all implying fake arm...

or do we want fake_arm to be the tag and have things tagged cybernetic, and steampunk and marshmallow, and stuff like they already are?

That would require manually going through every 'arm' tag and making sure that everything's "alright" with it, and shuffling things around a while lot..

I mean, we have prosthetic_arm, mechanical_arm, robotic_arm, bionic_arm, gun_arm, cybernetic_arm, robot_arm, robot_arms, mechanical_arms.. and I think I recal lseing metal_arms, and artificial_arm and a few others.

This is a lot of fake arms, and they can probably be compressed down to a few basic categories.

Or maybe it'll become a huge mess.

But the over all idea is totalyl different than what I'd already written down here, and goes much wider than cybernetic arms.

If I've got the idea right in my head, then it should solve part of the tagbloat problem, get rid of a lot of redundant tags, and make everyone happier.

but if I just... replaced it, some people will be confused by the subsequent conversation. If I place it around here, then some people might read the whole thread, and then realize everything they were reading about it redundant. Or they'll jsut read the top and not realize we changed boats. basically, it's to minimize confusion while working out a broad idea that is only slightly connected to this one.

I hope that makes sense. c_c

...I tried to change the pepperoni recipe, when I realized that whole pizza needs work?