Hey as somebody who is a trans man, it’s currently very frustrating to me to upload my art of my trans characters, specifically state in the description i do not want it tagged as c*ntboy, and then get it tagged as it anyway. I should not get in trouble for tagging it transgender_male instead, as c*ntboy is a fetish tag for the gender and i don’t appreciate being forced to use it. Sorry if this is controversial, but i’d at least like my wishes of my own art not to be tagged as it respected, same goes for tagging my trans man characters as female. Not sure if anyone else feels the same :/

all aboard the drama express

edit: But more seriously this has been hashed out a bunch of times and it probably would've been better to search for the many previous threads about it. The TWYS policy isn't likely to change because of these sporadic cases, you can use the description to clarify or you can refuse to have art of your character on the site, but if TWYS says the image meets the standards for the tag, it's getting the tag.

hanzai said:
all aboard the drama express

shouldn’t be unreasonable for someone to ask for a specific tag not be used on their posts just like it’s not unreasonable for someone not wanting their shit posted here but you do you

You didn't get in trouble, you simply got a notice that transgender_male isn't a valid tag on the website.
You can tell the difference between being scolded or being informed by the color. If you were being scolded the record would be red.

Versperus said:
You didn't get in trouble, you simply got a notice that transgender_male isn't a valid tag on the website.
You can tell the difference between being scolded or being informed by the color. If you were being scolded the record would be red.

i appreciate the clarification, thank you. still frustrated it’s not a valid tag to begin with however

gritsnshit said:
i appreciate the clarification, thank you. still frustrated it’s not a valid tag to begin with however

It's because the tag relies on information that wouldn't be deducible if you're an outside party looking at the information. And cuntboy covers visual aspects. If you can think of a tag that better describes characters that are tagged with this, your aloud to make alias suggestions which the administrators would review and decide if it's an acceptable replacement.

gritsnshit said:
shouldn’t be unreasonable for someone to ask for a specific tag not be used on their posts just like it’s not unreasonable for someone not wanting their shit posted here but you do you

The tagging policies and the post removal policies aren't the same. You can get pretty much anything removed that you have the right to, but the purpose of the tagging system is to allow users to find images by the content of the images, or (through the blacklist) to not find that content. This sometimes conflicts with fans and artists tagging the "lore" of a character, and in that case the Tag What You See) rule falls on the side of preserving the utility of the tags representing the content of the image over representing information outside of the image. Thus the gender tags like male, female, cuntboy, etc. aren't for tagging the 'identity' of the character, but for tagging the visible characteristics in the individual image. In the same way, tagging something like transgender_male like you did isn't valid because it's tagging for information outside of the image, not something depicted in it. The only sort of transgender tag valid under TWYS is the visibly_trans tag for characters that have visible physical characteristics of transitioning in the given image.

It was this one right? https://e621.net/post/show/1821367

The site is "tag what you see" so since that Serperior looks female it gets tagged as female.

There IS a visibly_trans tag for when you can actually see surgical scars to go from male to female or female to male, but I don't think it applies on this image.

If you want though, you could add lore tags in the description so people know even though that character is tagged as female, they're actually trans male.

Hey, @gritsnshit. First, I want to offer respect and support. Cheers!

This has been a frustration of mine for a long time, as well. I'm a trans ally.

About a month ago, there was a debate over this same topic here in the forums. It didn't change anything, but it does explain admin's reasoning. It also demonstrates how unlikely a rule change is, as there have been many[/u] of these threads here over the years.Under almost every condition, I strongly support the Tag What You See rule. This is the one situation in which I don't. Not only does it disrespect transgender artists and users, but it doesn't serve the purpose of tagging, either. Not only are the current tags antiquated and falling out of use (thank goodness), but in my opinion, if a user wants to find art of transgender characters, they shouldn't have to type in terms are crude, uninformed, and disrespectful to do it. However, it appears the decision makers are disinclined to see it that way and make changes.As an artist, the only thing I can suggest is asking them to place you on the Do Not Post list. I know that is contrary to whatever goals you must have in getting your work archived here, but as far as I can tell, what it comes down to is a question of exposure versus values.I wish you the best of luck, and I'm sorry that TWYS seems more important than respect in this important situation.

Please stop assuming cuntboy/dickgirl/herm/etc is a fetish gender for transgender people. 99% of the time this is tagged, that character was born that way.
We want to change these tags to something like gynomorph and andromorph, but it is on our things to do list, but it's heavily debated on what we change these tags to because no one can deside what to change them to.
We cannot tag transgender characters unless there is obvious hints that the character is transgender such as mastectomy scars.

Additionally, isn't the whole point of being transgender so that if a man is transgender and becomes female, they are seen as female and not labeled as transgender?

crusty_fire said:
It was this one right? https://e621.net/post/show/1821367

The site is "tag what you see" so since that Serperior looks female it gets tagged as female.

There IS a visibly_trans tag for when you can actually see surgical scars to go from male to female or female to male, but I don't think it applies on this image.

If you want though, you could add lore tags in the description so people know even though that character is tagged as female, they're actually trans male.

thanks for the info!! i actually was unaware of the visibly_trans tag up until now, which helps me a lot. i’ve also edited the descriptions to include the fact that each character is trans. it’s not exactly the solution i was hoping for, but it’ll do for now :)

CCoyote said:
Hey, @gritsnshit. First, I want to offer respect and support. Cheers!

This has been a frustration of mine for a long time, as well. I'm a trans ally.

About a month ago, there was a debate over this same topic here in the forums. It didn't change anything, but it does explain admin's reasoning. It also demonstrates how unlikely a rule change is, as there have been many[/u] of these threads here over the years.Under almost every condition, I strongly support the Tag What You See rule. This is the one situation in which I don't. Not only does it disrespect transgender artists and users, but it doesn't serve the purpose of tagging, either. Not only are the current tags antiquated and falling out of use (thank goodness), but in my opinion, if a user wants to find art of transgender characters, they shouldn't have to type in terms are crude, uninformed, and disrespectful to do it. However, it appears the decision makers are disinclined to see it that way and make changes.As an artist, the only thing I can suggest is asking them to place you on the Do Not Post list. I know that is contrary to whatever goals you must have in getting your work archived here, but as far as I can tell, what it comes down to is a question of exposure versus values.I wish you the best of luck, and I'm sorry that TWYS seems more important than respect in this important situation.

thank you for the kind words!! i was actually expecting a lot more backlash on this subject and it’s very nice to see the opposite :)
i agree with you on this a lot! i understand that the intention of some characters isn’t to fetishize trans people, but the problem i have is that they’re lumped together. as a trans person i want to be able to find porn of fellow trans characters, because i can relate to them more. like stated, c*ntboys aren’t always trans!

Chaser said:
Please stop assuming cuntboy/dickgirl/herm/etc is a fetish gender for transgender people. 99% of the time this is tagged, that character was born that way.
We want to change these tags to something like gynomorph and andromorph, but it is on our things to do list, but it's heavily debated on what we change these tags to because no one can deside what to change them to.
We cannot tag transgender characters unless there is obvious hints that the character is transgender such as mastectomy scars.

Additionally, isn't the whole point of being transgender so that if a man is transgender and becomes female, they are seen as female and not labeled as transgender?

i understand that it’s not the intention, but it doesn’t erase the fact that some trans folk (including me) are uncomfortable with how it’s presented. i’m not attempting to stop the creation of these characters, just dislike the term used and wish that transgender characters were separate from them in search. i’m relieved to hear that changing the words is on your to do list however!
to respond to your last comment, being transgender becomes a solid part of a transgender person’s identity, and some of us find comfort in the term in regards to our identity. plus, i’m not sure you all would be very happy if i tagged my characters as male if they had a pussy either ;) i guess what i was hoping to gain from this was to at least get the c*ntboy tag removed from my fursona post, as well as maybe the serperior post’s tags changed to intersex, as it’s a happy middle ground for me right now.

Chaser said:
Please stop assuming cuntboy/dickgirl/herm/etc is a fetish gender for transgender people.

Considering these are slurs meant to objectify and fetishize the identity of transgender people I'm not sure how you can ask people to do that.

isn't the whole point of being transgender so that if a man is transgender and becomes female, they are seen as female and not labeled as transgender?

No. Signed, a transwoman.

CCoyote said:
Hey, @gritsnshit. First, I want to offer respect and support. Cheers!

This has been a frustration of mine for a long time, as well. I'm a trans ally.

About a month ago, there was a debate over this same topic here in the forums. It didn't change anything, but it does explain admin's reasoning. It also demonstrates how unlikely a rule change is, as there have been many[/u] of these threads here over the years.Under almost every condition, I strongly support the Tag What You See rule. This is the one situation in which I don't. Not only does it disrespect transgender artists and users, but it doesn't serve the purpose of tagging, either. Not only are the current tags antiquated and falling out of use (thank goodness), but in my opinion, if a user wants to find art of transgender characters, they shouldn't have to type in terms are crude, uninformed, and disrespectful to do it. However, it appears the decision makers are disinclined to see it that way and make changes.As an artist, the only thing I can suggest is asking them to place you on the Do Not Post list. I know that is contrary to whatever goals you must have in getting your work archived here, but as far as I can tell, what it comes down to is a question of exposure versus values.I wish you the best of luck, and I'm sorry that TWYS seems more important than respect in this important situation.

This this this.

Changing and breaking the sites basic structure of TWYS for an incredibly small group of people is not easy. Yeah, maybe changing cuntboy to something else would be nice, but to call the sites administration disrespectful for their decisions is ignorant.

Pyke said:
... to call the sites administration disrespectful for their decisions is ignorant.

If you go back and reread what I wrote, you will see that I called the term disrespectful, not the site's admininistrators.

I acknowledge that making the change would be a lot of work, and if a set of respectful terms were agreed on that made transgender users feel included and affirmed here, I would be thrilled[/u] to personally take on as much of that effort as I can.

iceink said:
This this this.

<3

Chaser said:
Please stop assuming cuntboy/dickgirl/herm/etc is a fetish gender for transgender people.

iceink said:
Considering these are slurs meant to objectify and fetishize the identity of transgender people I'm not sure how you can ask people to do that.

It's really easy to ask for it because you ignored half of the argument:

Chaser said:
99% of the time this is tagged, that character was born that way.

The abundant majority of characters under these tags are not trans. Transgenders show up under those tags only because of shared visual characteristics. We don't tag identities of characters, as they aren't something that's visible.

Even if we remove the slur, the issue would remain that transgender characters would be tagged as whatever their visual characteristics represent, not as what they identify.

CCoyote said:
Under almost every condition, I strongly support the Tag What You See rule. This is the one situation in which I don't. Not only does it disrespect transgender artists and users, but it doesn't serve the purpose of tagging, either. Not only are the current tags antiquated and falling out of use (thank goodness), but in my opinion, if a user wants to find art of transgender characters, they shouldn't have to type in terms are crude, uninformed, and disrespectful to do it. However, it appears the decision makers are disinclined to see it that way and make changes.

Aliasing tags themselves into something else has been discussed about a lot and which many are in favor of, especially as these are slurry and pornographic focused, but there are so many issues with seemingly nobody agreeing on anything and then dicussion going around in circles.

Also the issue with TWYS really is in this context that majority of the characters under the tag might not be trans but rather characters which happen to be that way naturally, complicating terminology even further.

If someone does have terms which could be used for both characters born with opposite sex genitalia and transgender character, terms which are clear (I don't natively speak english to begin with, so I would imagine others also having issues with made up terms) and not slurry, feel free to say that. I'm simply getting tired of the outbursts that happen from these things. So tired of being afraid to say words.

Mairo said:
Aliasing tags themselves into something else has been discussed about a lot and which many are in favor of, especially as these are slurry and pornographic focused, but there are so many issues with seemingly nobody agreeing on anything and then dicussion going around in circles.

...

If someone does have terms which could be used for both characters born with opposite sex genitalia and transgender character, terms which are clear ... and not slurry, feel free to say that. I'm simply getting tired of the outbursts that happen from these things. So tired of being afraid to say words.

Hey, Mairo. You all have a hard job, and I don't envy you having to keep everyone happy. Respect. Also, gratitude for having this on your radar and looking for solutions.

Has admin considered asking for input from some of the transgender people who use the site? Several have stepped forward and offered some input already. It seems like they would be willing to help if they can.

I'll give it some thought, but I'm not a transgender person, so I suspect my input would not be as valuable to management decisions as theirs.

That's the heart of inclusion, right?

Chaser said:
We want to change these tags to something like gynomorph and andromorph, but it is on our things to do list, but it's heavily debated on what we change these tags to because no one can deside what to change them to.

I'm kinda wondering about this. Making these aliases looks like a good alternative.

cuntboy → andromorph
dickgirl → gynomorph

And use set:canontrans for TWYK if someone needs...

So I wanted to know what were the cons to this. I guess there is a thread somewhere...

we should tag transgender characters as autogynephile for mtf and autoandrophile for ftm. lol

BlackLicorice said:
we should tag transgender characters as autogynephile for mtf and autoandrophile for ftm. lol

oops guess i'm a "terf" now

maybe leave threads like this alone if you dont have anything to contribute besides trolling

gritsnshit said:
as a trans person i want to be able to find porn of fellow trans characters, because i can relate to them more. like stated, c*ntboys aren’t always trans!

I'm kind of terrible about promoting it because it involves the dreaded ~groups of people paying attention to me~, but I actually have a set created that should be of help for you there- Set:Canonically Trans Characters

It's definitely missing a lot of characters who should be in there and I've probably accidentally included at least one or two who shouldn't, but I can at least provide you a launching point.

Regarding aliases for the tags... I have some thoughts, but I want to take the time to look up some of those older threads first before I say anything much.

Cryptic_Cryptid said:
I'm kind of terrible about promoting it because it involves the dreaded ~groups of people paying attention to me~, but I actually have a set created that should be of help for you there- Set:Canonically Trans Characters

It's definitely missing a lot of characters who should be in there and I've probably accidentally included at least one or two who shouldn't, but I can at least provide you a launching point.

Regarding aliases for the tags... I have some thoughts, but I want to take the time to look up some of those older threads first before I say anything much.

oh hey this is awesome!!!! i’ll definitely have to check it out (and figure out how to add my characters...)

I'm kind of confused to why that's a set and not a wiki page with links to artist tags. I suppose it's easier to browse the images this way, but not so easy to check for images that should be in the set and aren't.

OP, I joined e621 not too long ago and I've run into the same problems too with terminology. As a trans guy, I'm not too fond of c*ntboy. I'm especially not fond of the intersex tag, since intersex people are a real subset of humanity and the tag misrepresents them. I'd think a better alternative could be mixed_sex for people with mixed sex characteristics. But you have my support and I hope things get better for you.