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Topic: Mixed breeds should not be aliased to hybrid

Posted under Tag Alias and Implication Suggestions

The bulk update request #79 is pending approval.

remove alias black_lab-dalmatian-mix -> hybrid
remove alias black_lab-dalmatian_mix -> hybrid
remove alias collie_mix -> hybrid
remove alias border_collie_mix -> hybrid
remove alias malinois_husky_mix -> hybrid
remove alias great_danematian -> hybrid
remove alias spitz_mix -> hybrid

Reason: These tags need to imply or be aliased to mixed_breed instead. Also these are real world mixed breed names as well, so aliasing them away doesn't make much sense.

Examples

I had to remake this topic, because I posted it in another topic by mistake.

I feel like there are a loooot of others that would need to be changed, 7 mixes out of hundreds of breeds can't be a complete list.

I agree/bump. It would be nice if we could vote on these like normal alias and implications

From a scientific standpoint, there is no functional difference between the terms "breed" and "species." See, where most people say "breed," they're talking about Dobermans versus Rottweilers versus Poodles...etc. And they refer to "dogs in general" as the species. Same applies to the term "subspecies." But from a scientific standpoint, what the term species actually means, is Doberman/Rottweiler/etc. "Dogs in general" would be the...genus, I believe? So, with that in mind, and considering that e6 currently seems to tend more toward following scientific consensus where possible:

Hybrid-A new species created by crossbreeding two different species which are similar enough to produce offspring. (May or may not still be fertile.)

Mixed breed-A new breed created by crossbreeding two different breeds [usually of some form of house pet] which are similar enough to produce offspring. (These, too, are not always fertile.)

I...really don't see any problem with them being considered hybrids. The distinction between the two terms is so tiny, and essentially meaningless to anyone who's not an animal breeder.

Now, I don't think there's any problem with de-aliasing the mixed breed tags, then IMPLICATING them to hybrid...but, still.

Genjar

Former Staff

jacob said:
I...really don't see any problem with them being considered hybrids. The distinction between the two terms is so tiny, and essentially meaningless to anyone who's not an animal breeder.

I concur. The distinction between hybrid and mixed_breed is entirely unnecessary, not to mention that it's pretty random how those get tagged for fictional species. Are different types of dragons breeds or species? What about dragon-type Pokemon? Etc. Hybrid and mixed_breed should be merged. There's a pending alias in topic #23209.

And maybe these mixed breeds could be implicated to hybrid instead of aliased to it, but many of them seem extremely difficult to tag by twys..

Updated

genjar said:
I concur. The distinction between hybrid and mixed_breed is entirely unnecessary, not to mention that it's pretty random how those get tagged for fictional species. Are different types of dragons breeds or species? What about dragon-type Pokemon? Etc. Hybrid and mixed_breed should be merged. There's a pending alias in topic #23209.

And maybe these mixed breeds could be implicated to hybrid instead of aliased to it, but many of them seem extremely difficult to tag by twys..

The difference is that breeds do not equal separate distinct species, and that conflicts with the definition of the Hybrid wiki. They represent the various genetically compatible forms belonging to domesticated species. They do not have their own unique scientific name, and all species, and even subspecies have that.

Definition of hybrid in wiki (For Reference)

"A hybrid is the offspring of two different species of animal. This tag applies to mainly odd combinations of distantly related species."

Mixed_breed should remain a separate tag from hybrid. I feel indifferent about it implying hybrids as the term hybrid is used to describe mixed breeds too, but I think that changing this is not entirely necessary as each tag serves a specific purpose. I strongly disagree with an alias from a functional standpoint though. Hybrid is already a dumpster fire from previous alias decisions. It is more useful to keep mixed breeds as a separate group rather than lumping them with non-breed hybrids.

Fictional breeds

I'm not sure if the mixed_breed tag should be applicable to fictional species. A hybrid of two dragon species is a form that combines two dragon forms rather than two different species, which is what the hybrid tag is supposed to be for. That is kind of a grey area since the line between breed and species for dragons is unclear. The reasoning is stronger for cases where the species are treated more like actual breeds where one species may have multiple variants. A combination of an alolan_vulpix and a regular vulpix is a good example of a fictional mixed breed.

Anyways I mainly care about preserving mixed_breed for real world mixed breeds that I come across while tagging. The fictional species can be handled on a case by case basis depending on the species or get moved to the hybrid tag instead.

Updated

jacob said:
From a scientific standpoint, there is no functional difference between the terms "breed" and "species." See, where most people say "breed," they're talking about Dobermans versus Rottweilers versus Poodles...etc. And they refer to "dogs in general" as the species. Same applies to the term "subspecies." But from a scientific standpoint, what the term species actually means, is Doberman/Rottweiler/etc. "Dogs in general" would be the...genus, I believe? So, with that in mind, and considering that e6 currently seems to tend more toward following scientific consensus where possible:

Incorrect. the "domestic dog" is the species. Subspecies, actually, depending on who you ask. Canis familiaris or Canis lupus familiaris.

Poodles and Chihuahuas are breeds.

A breed is a specific group of domesticated animals that have a reliable and repeatable appearance and behavior. Two dalmatians will always produce a dalmatian. The Dalmatian will always be about this size and will usually be this sort of temperament. Two rotties will do the same. Most of the cows, pigs, sheep, horses and goats are also breeds. A chihuahua and a great dane CAN reproduce. Like, people have done this. Because they're the same species.

jacob said:
Hybrid-A new species created by crossbreeding two different species which are similar enough to produce offspring. (May or may not still be fertile.)

Mixed breed-A new breed created by crossbreeding two different breeds [usually of some form of house pet] which are similar enough to produce offspring. (These, too, are not always fertile.)

I...really don't see any problem with them being considered hybrids. The distinction between the two terms is so tiny, and essentially meaningless to anyone who's not an animal breeder.

Mixed breeds are always fertile because they are the same species.

Look, if I were an ancient eternal alien and I decided to breed humans, and produced a line of humans that reliable had... I dunno, red skin, red hair and reddish eyes, I would have created a breed of human. My buddy has successfully made a breed of humans that has black skin, white hair and very pale blue eyes. These are the results of careful breeding. These humans can still mate and reproduce. Their offspring, also, can mate and reproduce. They're all still humans. They just "breed true" and always create offspring that is similar to them. That's what a breed is.

We took woves and we took the fast ones and turned them into grey hounds. we took the strong ones and turned them into bulldogs. we took the small ones and turned them into corgis. they're all the same thing, just we picked out the traits we wanted and have selectively bred for them. that's why it's called a Breed.

A mule, on the other hand, is a hybrid. It is infertile. It's a mix of a horse (Equus ferus caballus) and a donkey (Equus africanus asinus). a mule is not a species. it's a hybrid. they also do not breed true. Actually they generally don't breed at all. 2 species of horse, 3 asses and 3 zebras can all make babies, but 99% of them are infertile. (rarely, a female mule (not a Hinnie, a mule) will be fertile.) They are hybrids. They're not a new species. Species needs to be able to reproduce and if every mule is infertile, then it's not a species. To be a species, requires genetic drift.

Tehre is a lot of difference, and you don't need to be a breeder to appreciate it.

I'm too tired to have an opinion otherwise. Mixed_breed is a good tag though. the problem is that tehre are literally dog crossbreeds for every combo possible. And there is not a reliable naming system. They don't have official names, so it's whatever peopel think is cute.

that said, it's a problem with hybrid too.

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