The bulk update request #879 has been rejected.

remove alias cow_tail (0) -> tail_tuft (45955)

Reason: If you check the wiki for tail (invalid by istelf), it lists all the humanoid tails, which are used for (quote):

Characters that appear almost entirely human, but have a tail like a (animal). Usually paired with (animal)_humanoid.

• This tag is generally not applicable to anthro characters.

cow_tail has been aliased to tail_tuft for some reason, but other types of tails have tail tufts too, and the end of the tail with the tuft might not be shown

EDIT: The bulk update request #879 (forum #309501) has been rejected by @ShadyGuy.

I ran into this today when tagging post #2742867 , there's a cow tail on a humanoid but no tuft is visible

The cow_tail tag was probably used in a synonymous manner as tail_tuft when it got aliased. While I haven't yet decided how I feel about un-aliasing cow_tail, I can see some of the reasoning behind it. While tail_tuft is applicable to most cow_tails, it doesn't apply to every case (like in the example you added). And like you said, a tail_tuft itself could be stylized differently from a cow_tail, like with sergals, rabbits/lagomorphs, and felines.

However, lion_tail (which is also currently aliased to tail_tuft) is visually very similar to cow_tail too.

If cow_tail is un-aliased, I think lion_tail should be un-aliased as well. But if they're both un-aliased, should lion_tail be kept as a separate tag or should it be aliased to cow_tail instead?

shadyguy said:
I ran into this today when tagging post #2742867 , there's a cow tail on a humanoid but no tuft is visible

What makes that a Cow tail? It looks more like a spotted_tail. If you want to produce a new tag for cow_print_tails specifically, I wouldn't be opposed to that, but cow tails are typically solid or dipstick colored, tufted tails.

furrin_gok said:
What makes that a Cow tail? It looks more like a spotted_tail. If you want to produce a new tag for cow_print_tails specifically, I wouldn't be opposed to that, but cow tails are typically solid or dipstick colored, tufted tails.

The fact that it is attached to a bovine_humanoid or a character wearing bovine-inspired garments and what is visible of it resembles the structure of the relevant animal's anatomy.
Should we state that any coloured tail of any other animal humanoid that does not exist in nature automatically disqualifies it as the relevant species tail? (I've personally seen cattle with more mottled/splotchy tails, but I have zero desire to have a bunch of cow ass and vagene in my face hunting down an example at the moment.)

votp said:
The fact that it is attached to a bovine_humanoid or a character wearing bovine-inspired garments

Just because a character happens to be an animal humanoid doesn't mean their tail will match, so that point is irrelevant. Clothing doesn't typically come with a tail, either.

and what is visible of it resembles the structure of the relevant animal's anatomy.

Once again, what about it resembles the structure of a cow tail?

Should we state that any coloured tail of any other animal humanoid that does not exist in nature automatically disqualifies it as the relevant species tail? (I've personally seen cattle with more mottled/splotchy tails, but I have zero desire to have a bunch of cow ass and vagene in my face hunting down an example at the moment.)

I'm saying that the tail having cow print does not in any way make it resemble a "bovine tail". Even if it was solid or dipstick colored, it would still just resemble a tail in general, not a bovine tail. Lions, cows, and donkeys all have the same style of tail. How can you say it's one over another? Heck, with the lack of a tuft, it could be a Cow print cat tail

furrin_gok said:
(...) Lions, cows, and donkeys all have the same style of tail. How can you say it's one over another? Heck, with the lack of a tuft, it could be a Cow print cat tail

How do you tell the difference between a crocodile, lizard, and dragon tail? How do you tell the difference between a dog tail and a fox tail? If a cat tail is solid blue, and a monkey tail is solid blue, are both considered just "long_tail" regardless of what they're attached to, merely because of colour? A lot of creatures have similar tails, only defined in difference by what they're attached to and/or their colour, should we group up all similar tails and just blanket-alias them based on a single feature they share in common?

This isn't about what common feature, this is about the only feature visible matching. If we did see the whole tail, and it's identical to other animal tails, then yes, those tail types should be aliased together. This is why Lion and Cow tails are aliased to the same type of tail. Dog_tails and fox_tails could probably do with an alias to canine_tail.

From the help page on Tag Aliases:

When a tag is aliased to another tag, that means that the two tags are equivalent.

cow_tail or lion_tail are not a tail_tuft. The aliases are semantically wrong and should definitely be removed. For these kind of relations an implication should be used, or if we don't want these tags to be used, they should be aliased to invalid_tag. Of course the implication is not an option, because if they created these aliases, they wanted to get rid of the aliased tags. The most appropriate solution would be aliasing cow_tail and lion_tail to tail, but since tail tag is invalid itself, those two tags also have to be invalid.

ebea57 said:
From the help page on Tag Aliases:

cow_tail or lion_tail are not a tail_tuft. The aliases are semantically wrong and should definitely be removed. For these kind of relations an implication should be used, or if we don't want these tags to be used, they should be aliased to invalid_tag. Of course the implication is not an option, because if they created these aliases, they wanted to get rid of the aliased tags. The most appropriate solution would be aliasing cow_tail and lion_tail to tail, but since tail tag is invalid itself, those two tags should also be invalid.

If we can avoid aliasing to invalid tag, we should. Cows, Lions, and Donkeys all have tails that end in tufts, so it seems reasonable enough to alias those tail types to tail_tuft. Sure, we occasionally get a false positive as shown in the second post, but the better solution seems to be to just remove the tag.

Question: Would it be a bad idea to alias cow_tail and lion_tail to animal_tail? Or is animal_tail deemed a useless tag or something? Considering characters like Inuyasha exist, who is an animal_humanoid, but does not have a tail, I'd've thought animal_tail would've seen more use by now.

I don't deal with a lot of the humanoid side of things though, so that's just my two cents.

vulkalu said:
Question: Would it be a bad idea to alias cow_tail and lion_tail to animal_tail? Or is animal_tail deemed a useless tag or something? Considering characters like Inuyasha exist, who is an animal_humanoid, but does not have a tail, I'd've thought animal_tail would've seen more use by now.

I don't deal with a lot of the humanoid side of things though, so that's just my two cents.

As far as I understand, <insert animal>_tail is used for humanoid or hybrid characters, so the tail type is important

vulkalu said:
Question: Would it be a bad idea to alias cow_tail and lion_tail to animal_tail? Or is animal_tail deemed a useless tag or something? Considering characters like Inuyasha exist, who is an animal_humanoid, but does not have a tail, I'd've thought animal_tail would've seen more use by now.

I don't deal with a lot of the humanoid side of things though, so that's just my two cents.

shadyguy said:
As far as I understand, <insert animal>_tail is used for humanoid or hybrid characters, so the tail type is important

From a glance, the more populous tags of [cat/fox/wolf/rat]_tail are predominantly tagged on full-animal characters with no form mismatch, so either that's a bad take or this is an area requiring far more active policing.
Likewise if the cow/lion tail aliases transfer into animal_tail I'd imagine seeing it on a lot of non-humanoids.

magnuseffect said:
Likewise if the cow/lion tail aliases transfer into animal_tail I'd imagine seeing it on a lot of non-humanoids.

...Yeah. In my defense, it made sense to move things over to animal_tail at the time (I was pretty tired). But then I saw the state the tags are in and... yeah, they seem like no matter what you do with them, there's going to be quite a bit of mistagging. I'm not really sure what the most efficient solution is here.

I'll be honest, the best way to unfuck it might just be to nuke all the tail tags and start over with clear direction and ruling on what the hell each is defined as and the guidelines on when and where to use the tags.

votp said:
I'll be honest, the best way to unfuck it might just be to nuke all the tail tags and start over with clear direction and ruling on what the hell each is defined as and the guidelines on when and where to use the tags.

The Tail wiki already defines it pretty well as far as shapes are concerned. Shapes fit a lot better than animal styles, as you very rarely have a tail that's specific to one animal type. Nuking the tags when the system is already in place seems like a bad idea.

Y'all confusing me, all I think is:
Cow_Tail is a cow's tail regardless if on a humanoid or furry.
Tail_Tuft is the lil bits of fur either at the end of the tail or pieces of fur that decided to stick out in some prominent way on the tail.

Why these two together make no sense to me when using my own logic. I'm voting yes

closetpossum said:
Cow_Tail is a cow's tail regardless if on a humanoid or furry.

The problem is that it's quite ambiguous what kind of tail something is by looking at just the tail. Generally people will go: "Eyup, that's a cow. Eyup, that's a tail. Cow tail it is!" It would be better to tag the tail's visible features, like a tail_tuft or fluffy_tail or tail_fin, rather than the specific species it belongs to, where it becomes much more ambiguous. What's the difference between a wolf tail and a fox tail? For a generic wolf/fox canine, how would you tag its tail? A generic canine_tail wouldn't work.

closetpossum said:
Y'all confusing me, all I think is:
Cow_Tail is a cow's tail regardless if on a humanoid or furry.
Tail_Tuft is the lil bits of fur either at the end of the tail or pieces of fur that decided to stick out in some prominent way on the tail.

Why these two together make no sense to me when using my own logic. I'm voting yes

Lion's tail
Donkey's tail
Cow's tail
Tell me, if the animal weren't in the image, how would you tell which tail was which?

furrin_gok said:
Lion's tail
Donkey's tail
Cow's tail
Tell me, if the animal weren't in the image, how would you tell which tail was which?

Lion: Long, thick, with short, stiff tufts in a wider "brush" pattern at the very tip.
Donkey: Short, medium-width, with long, loose-hanging hair that runs about half the length of the tail.
Cow:Long, thin, with semi-rigid hairs at the tip.

Come on man, just because you can't tell the difference doesn't mean they're that similar. You might as well alias all spitz breeds and wolves to a generic canid tag rather than any species tag because, in furry art, those are often 100% impossible to tell apart.

watsit said:
The problem is that it's quite ambiguous what kind of tail something is by looking at just the tail. Generally people will go: "Eyup, that's a cow. Eyup, that's a tail. Cow tail it is!" It would be better to tag the tail's visible features, like a tail_tuft or fluffy_tail or tail_fin, rather than the specific species it belongs to, where it becomes much more ambiguous. What's the difference between a wolf tail and a fox tail? For a generic wolf/fox canine, how would you tag its tail? A generic canine_tail wouldn't work.

what does any of that have to do with Tail_Tuft. In fact, some of those images shouldn't even have the tag cow_tail cause they're not cow tails.

furrin_gok said:
Lion's tail
Donkey's tail
Cow's tail
Tell me, if the animal weren't in the image, how would you tell which tail was which?

it's easy to tell which tail is which. Just look at the tail, it's a dead give away. Not to sound haughty or anything but the only person who couldn't tell the difference in tails is if they never saw a dang animal before, imo...but we're furries, we KNOW our animals. It's easy to tell a Cheeta's tail from a Leopard's tail if I had to guess the two.

Like I said. Cow tail is a cow tail! y'alls trying to make sense of something that doesn't make sense. Like saying 2+2=5 Cow_tail has nothing to do with tail_tuft unless the Cow_tail HAS actual tail_tuft...I don't get why that's hard to understand?

closetpossum said:
it's easy to tell which tail is which. Just look at the tail, it's a dead give away. Not to sound haughty or anything but the only person who couldn't tell the difference in tails is if they saw a dang animal before...but we're furries, we KNOW our animals, don't be so robotic about it. It's easy to tell a Cheeta's tail from a Leopard's tail if I had to guess the two.

Like I said. Cow tail is a cow tail!

Hey, good job giving zero answer, proving my point. If all you can say is "I can tell", it means you can't.

votp said:
Lion: Long, thick, with short, stiff tufts in a wider "brush" pattern at the very tip.
Donkey: Short, medium-width, with long, loose-hanging hair that runs about half the length of the tail.
Cow:Long, thin, with semi-rigid hairs at the tip.

Come on man, just because you can't tell the difference doesn't mean they're that similar. You might as well alias all spitz breeds and wolves to a generic canid tag rather than any species tag because, in furry art, those are often 100% impossible to tell apart.

Okay, so what are these?
post #2748161 post #2731825
Those hairs aren't rigid. They're kempt, but loose. Of those three descriptions, only Donkey have loose hairs, but donkey tails also have half the tail tufted, so it can't be that by your definition.

furrin_gok said:
Hey, good job giving zero answer, proving my point. If all you can say is "I can tell", it means you can't.

Okay, so what are these?
post #2748161 post #2731825
Those hairs aren't rigid. They're kempt, but loose. Of those three descriptions, only Donkey have loose hairs, but donkey tails also have half the tail tufted, so it can't be that by your definition.

I see a cow, I tag cow. Next, seriously I think this is just common sense like that's how the human mind works. I'm not gonna look at these images and go "Oh yeah donkey tail on a cow" dude, it's a cow tail, that's it and then I move on.

But in actuality, I wouldn't even bother tagging the darn tail at all. If the cow is a cow why would I bother tagging the tail if people know it's a cow?
Unless they were a draconequus or a chimera or something, I'm gonna tag Cow_tail, if I ever used it on a Cow. But according to this Cow_Tail is the alias of Tail_tuft. It makes no sense to me.

furrin_gok said:
Okay, so what are these?
post #2748161 post #2731825
Those hairs aren't rigid. They're kempt, but loose. Of those three descriptions, only Donkey have loose hairs, but donkey tails also have half the tail tufted, so it can't be that by your definition.

?

closetpossum said:
I see a cow, I tag cow. Next, seriously I think this is just common sense like that's how the human mind works. I'm not gonna look at these images and go "Oh yeah donkey tail on a cow" dude, it's a cow tail, that's it and then I move on.

But in actuality, I wouldn't even bother tagging the darn tail at all. If the cow is a cow why would I bother tagging the tail if people know it's a cow?
Unless they were a draconequus or a chimera or something, I'm gonna tag Cow_tail, if I ever used it on a Cow. But according to this Cow_Tail is the alias of Tail_tuft. It makes no sense to me.

That would be tagging what you know, not what you see. "The character is a cow, therefore their tail is a cow's tail."

furrin_gok said:
That would be tagging what you know, not what you see. "The character is a cow, therefore their tail is a cow's tail."

Should we never tag any species or anything else ever because we, when we look at an image, are supposed to not know anything of the information gleaned from simply looking at it, somehow? If I see a cow, should I tag it at "big_nose_hooved_creature_with_horns"? Are we going to alias away all the penis tags, too, for this same reason?

Edit: Removed a bit of undue harshness.

Also, here, for demonstration purposes as to what the next step on this path is, in my perception;

alias bovine_penis -> tapering_penis
alias canine_penis -> knotted_penis
alias cervine_penis -> tapering_penis
alias equine_penis -> flared_penis
alias feline_penis -> barbed_penis
alias porcine_penis -> corkscrew_penis

furrin_gok said:
That would be tagging what you know, not what you see. "The character is a cow, therefore their tail is a cow's tail."

why are you making something that's not difficult AT ALL, like solving the world's most I'm possible equation?

Like trying to differentiate spaghetti noodles from ramen noodles.
I'm done here, I hope this unalias tag gets Approved.

-1 to this. I really don't want to say anything about this since the one who updated the tail wiki to latest is that user I don't want to interact with ever, but here I am.

If it's indeed possible to differentiate every type of tail without showing the tuft then I might change my mind. For now, having even more animal_<stuff> tag is a big NOPE.

votp said:
Should we never tag any species or anything else ever because we, when we look at an image, are supposed to not know anything of the information gleaned from simply looking at it, somehow? If I see a cow, should I tag it at "big_nose_hooved_creature_with_horns"? Are we going to alias away all the penis tags, too, for this same reason?

Also, here, for demonstration purposes as to what the next step on this path is, in my perception;

alias bovine_penis -> tapering_penis
alias canine_penis -> knotted_penis
alias cervine_penis -> tapering_penis
alias equine_penis -> flared_penis
alias feline_penis -> barbed_penis
alias porcine_penis -> corkscrew_penis

Chill, "round_nosed_creature_with_floppy_ears". It's just about a tail. Anyways, those are recognizable types of animal penises, no need to alias them. Heck, some of those are also given very good wiki pages to see.

closetpossum said:
why are you making something that's not difficult AT ALL, like solving the world's most [impossible] equation?

Like trying to differentiate spaghetti noodles from ramen noodles.
I'm done here, I hope this unalias tag gets Approved.

Sometimes, tagging is not as simple as you think. Maybe the character is more than just a cow or actually a very specific breed of one, and the artist or commissioner might be unsatisfied on how the tail looks for their character and opt to have a more different and/or unrealistic version.

Oh, about the noodles, hard to differentiate in picture until the ingredients are added. You put cooked tomato sauce, meatballs, and grated cheese on top of the noodle bowl, so it's spaghetti noodles!

votp said:
Should we never tag any species or anything else ever because we, when we look at an image, are supposed to not know anything of the information gleaned from simply looking at it, somehow? If I see a cow, should I tag it at "big_nose_hooved_creature_with_horns"? Are we going to alias away all the penis tags, too, for this same reason?

Edit: Removed a bit of undue harshness.

Also, here, for demonstration purposes as to what the next step on this path is, in my perception;

alias bovine_penis -> tapering_penis
alias canine_penis -> knotted_penis
alias cervine_penis -> tapering_penis
alias equine_penis -> flared_penis
alias feline_penis -> barbed_penis
alias porcine_penis -> corkscrew_penis

That's more like saying you see scales, so you tag it as iguana. If you think there are enough differences, then fine, unalias it, but the example images would only qualify for tail_tuft, not cow_tail.
And what about post #2742867? Without the tuft there, it's neither cow nor tuft

furrin_gok said:
That's more like saying you see scales, so you tag it as iguana. If you think there are enough differences, then fine, unalias it, but the example images would only qualify for tail_tuft, not cow_tail.
And what about post #2742867? Without the tuft there, it's neither cow nor tuft

Considering Draph are, by all accounts I can find (pardon, I don't do Granblue), based on cows, goats, and other bovids, I'd actually say that counts as a bovid_humanoid outright, especially given a lot of Draph posts are missing a lot of pertinent tags such as horned_humanoid. That particular one is based on a cow, and in the image in particular is leaning into cow iconography. Somebody should probably review all Draph posts and ensure they have all the tags needed.
And no, what you're saying is that because it shares a superficial, vague resemblance to another item, they are the same thing. This is like aliasing purple and green to blue because they both contain blue. There's a big difference between seeing a cow-creature and tagging it's tail as a cow tail and tagging anything with scales as an iguana.

Edit:

This appears to be where the change took place, unless I'm mistaken?
https://e621.net/forum_topics/17724

The bulk update request #879 (forum #309501) has been rejected by @ShadyGuy.