The tag implication #42314 ferris_argyle -> male_(lore) has been rejected.

Reason: Too many LOL_Comments about trap boys.
Honestly if you know they're a boy it should already have male_(lore) tag.

This should apply to Astolfo too...but I suck at BURS and it's a drag.
So I'll do that after this.

EDIT: The tag implication ferris_argyle -> male_(lore) (forum #319140) has been rejected by @bitWolfy.

Characters can be drawn in a way that's different from what they normally are. Ferris drawn as a female (or in a way that's intended to be female but looks ambiguous) should not be tagged male_(lore). mtf_crossgender maybe, but not male_(lore). Also, male_(lore) shouldn't be tagged when he's clearly male and tagged as such already.

watsit said:
Characters can be drawn in a way that's different from what they normally are. Ferris drawn as a female (or in a way that's intended to be female but looks ambiguous) should not be tagged male_(lore). mtf_crossgender maybe, but not male_(lore). Also, male_(lore) shouldn't be tagged when he's clearly male and tagged as such already.

according to the wiki of Male_(lore)

Posts featuring characters who are canonically deemed to be or identify as male by their creator or owner, regardless of the physical or biological sex they are depicted as in the post.

I feel like I am in the right though, what am I confusing?
What you're saying doesn't align with the wiki

closetpossum said:
according to the wiki of Male_(lore)
I feel like I am in the right though, what am I confusing?
What you're saying doesn't align with the wiki

Male_(lore) can’t be applied in posts where the character already appears to be male. The lore tags are intended for when a character’s appearance is ambiguous or differs from their canonical gender. So, there can’t be an implication in this case.

closetpossum said:
according to the wiki of Male_(lore)

That's not quite how it's been explained before. To qualify for the male_(lore) tag, the character must be intended to be male (which is on a per-image basis, as a character can be intended to be male in one image, and female in another), and not also tagged male (you don't redundantly tag a character as male_(lore) if they're already tagged male). If an artist drew Ferris as a female intentionally, it would not be male_(lore) since they are deemed to be female in that specific instance.

closetpossum said:
according to the wiki of Male_(lore)
I feel like I am in the right though, what am I confusing?
What you're saying doesn't align with the wiki

ah so the reason this doesn't work (for both Ferris_argyle and Astolfo) is that some of them are actually male?

closetpossum said:
ah so the reason this doesn't work (for both Ferris_argyle and Astolfo) is that some of them are actually male?

Yes.

Well, that, and also the fact that an artist may deliberately draw the character as a different gender, so the lore tag doesn’t apply in that case either. That’s why we have a million posts of crossgender Spyro that are not tagged male_(lore) - because in those cases, Spyro is actually deliberately drawn to be female.

scaliespe said:
Yes.

Well, that, and also the fact that an artist may deliberately draw the character as a different gender, so the lore tag doesn’t apply in that case either. That’s why we have a million posts of crossgender Spyro that are not tagged male_(lore) - because in those cases, Spyro is actually deliberately drawn to be female.

The latter half I don't understand as well as I may be a bit based. Using Spyro as an example:

Why should it matter if Spyro is crossgendered as a girl and the artist says it's a girl but not get the male_(lore) tag because the Company/Entity that created Spyro says they're a guy.
The artist is just changing what the company/creator dictates them to be, so why favor the artist saying "spyro is female" than the company that says "Spyro is male"
Hope that wasn't confusing.

like we know Spyro is male, we tag male
then an artist draws a female spyro and the artist says they're female

why can't it get mtf_crossgender + crossgender and male_(lore)?

closetpossum said:
The latter half I don't understand as well as I may be a bit based. Using Spyro as an example:

Why should it matter if Spyro is crossgendered as a girl and the artist says it's a girl but not get the male_(lore) tag because the Company/Entity that created Spyro says they're a guy.
The artist is just changing what the company/creator dictates them to be, so why favor the artist saying "spyro is female" than the company that says "Spyro is male"
Hope that wasn't confusing.

like we know Spyro is male, we tag male
then an artist draws a female spyro and the artist says they're female

why can't it get mtf_crossgender + crossgender and male_(lore)?

Basically, it’s because we take the artist’s word for what the character is when it comes to lore tags. So if an artist draws Spyro as a female, and the artist says that the character is female or that this is a female version of the character, we’re going to just say that the character is female and forget all about what the character is originally supposed to be. We only use lore tags when the artist (or commissioner) says that a character is of a particular gender, but that conflicts with the character’s visible gender in the image.

Basically, lore tags were created in the first place for those people who want to, for example, have a character that has a male body but identifies as female, or vice versa. So, we see a male body - male genitalia, no breasts, masculine proportions, etc. - but the one who drew or commissioned the image says that the character is female. We obviously can’t tag the character as female, because that would disrupt the search system. People searching for females would see dicks instead. So, the solution was the creation of the lore tag. A character can be tagged according to their physical characteristics with the regular gender tags, and they can also have a separate tag for their identity with the lore tags, but only if that identity differs from how they appear. So a male character who identifies as female according to the artist or commissioner gets the tags male and female_(lore).

This isn’t used when the character’s identity matches their appearance. Ferris Argyle drawn with a penis and no breasts only gets the male tag.

Similarly, this isn’t used when there’s no indication that the character identifies as something other than how they appear. If an artist wants to draw Spyro as a girl, we presume that it is actually a female version of Spyro. The original gender doesn’t matter since it’s an alternate version.

On the other hand, if someone draws Astolfo to look very feminine, but without showing any genitalia or anything that would indicate that he’s male, he will probably be tagged female. Unless the artist actually states that it’s supposed to be a female version of Astolfo, then it’ll probably get the male_(lore) tag as well, since the artist intended for the character to be male regardless of appearance.

So, basically, lore tags are used to indicate the artist’s intent for the character when it differs from the character’s appearance.

scaliespe said:
A character can be tagged according to their physical characteristics with the regular gender tags, and they can also have a separate tag for their identity with the lore tags, but only if that identity differs from how they appear. So a male character who identifies as female according to the artist or commissioner gets the tags male and female_(lore).

Pretty sure that's not how it works. A character that appears male and identifies as female would be tagged male and trans_woman_(lore). female_(lore) would be for characters that are supposed to appear female, but instead gets tagged ambiguous_gender or andromorph or something else. This was to help keep consistency, since in extreme cases the same character can change between herm, gynomorph, female, male, and ambiguous, depending on what's seen of them in a given image. Or for a flat-chested female sometimes getting tagged andromorph, or a girly male sometimes getting tagged female, etc.

But otherwise yes, the lore tags follow the artist's intent for the character in the given image, not the more general series canon. If an artist draws Krystal as a male, they wouldn't be tagged female_(lore) since the artist's canon for the given image overrules previously established canon. If an artist draws a girly male Krystal, but ends up not showing any bits that would be necessary for the male tag on e6, such an image could end up being tagged female+male_(lore), even though the character is normally female.

watsit said:
Pretty sure that's not how it works. A character that appears male and identifies as female would be tagged male and trans_woman_(lore). female_(lore) would be for characters that are supposed to appear female, but instead gets tagged ambiguous_gender or andromorph or something else. This was to help keep consistency, since in extreme cases the same character can change between herm, gynomorph, female, male, and ambiguous, depending on what's seen of them in a given image. Or for a flat-chested female sometimes getting tagged andromorph, or a girly male sometimes getting tagged female, etc.

My understanding of it, at least from seeing how the trans tags were used (I admit I haven’t had any desire to look very far into it, though), is that trans_female_(lore) can also be applied to a female character to indicate that the character is “post-transition.” But I’ve also seen a case where an unambiguously andromorph character is also tagged male_(lore) because… well, I’m not entirely sure why, as I’m not particularly well versed in this sort of thing, but in that case there was a post featuring an andromorph character, stated by the artist to be male but without any mention of being transgender - just male. The artist ended up issuing a takedown for the art because the post wasn’t allowed to keep the male tag (regardless of the lore tag being there).

I didn’t look into it any further, but I know some actual birth defects can cause something resembling what we tag as andromorph. If that was the case there, I wonder if that would be an example of where the post does not qualify as transgender, but still needs a lore tag; ie. male_(lore) to identify the character’s identity as intended by the artist.

On an unrelated note, it’s disappointing that some people are still throwing temper tantrums about the gender tags even with the existence of lore tags.

...what?
You know what, fuck gender lore tags
I regret bringing this up
I am more confused than when I started.

Here's what I'm taking away from this: I see a male that looks female and artist/company says they're female, I tag male_(lore) + female
or some bs.

All in all, if I see a femboy, it's clear, male tag.

Note that the gender lore tags are completely optional and you do not need to tag it all the time.

The most basic rule of thumb: I know that this character is X gender, but I cannot tag it as such due to TWYS (i.e., Tag What You See). Therefore, I tag it as Y gender based on how I perceive it to be in the post. And so that I don't offend the character owners who don't want their characters be called Y gender but rather as X gender, I add in the complementary X_(lore) tag.

If you want more advanced usage, the gender tags can be added into most ambiguous_gender posts where due to circumstances the genders cannot be made out.
It can be tagged as per how the character owner depicts it (e.g., I know it is canon male but I cannot see it, so I tag ambiguous_gender & male_(lore)) or how the artist depicts it (e.g., the same character's owner commissions a comic where their character is purposefully made crossgender as a female but I cannot see it on this page, so I tag ambiguous_gender and female_(lore)).
The purpose of this is so that when people who want to search for male/male posts but also want to include ambiguous/male posts don't come across potential female posts due to how the artworks don't always show the full picture.

thegreatwolfgang said:
Note that the gender lore tags are completely optional and you do not need to tag it all the time.

The most basic rule of thumb: I know that this character is X gender, but I cannot tag it as such due to TWYS (i.e., Tag What You See). Therefore, I tag it as Y gender based on how I perceive it to be in the post. And so that I don't offend the character owners who don't want their characters be called Y gender but rather as X gender, I add in the complementary X_(lore) tag.

If you want more advanced usage, the gender tags can be added into most ambiguous_gender posts where due to circumstances the genders cannot be made out.
It can be tagged as per how the character owner depicts it (e.g., I know it is canon male but I cannot see it, so I tag ambiguous_gender & male_(lore)) or how the artist depicts it (e.g., the same character's owner commissions a comic where their character is purposefully made crossgender as a female but I cannot see it on this page, so I tag ambiguous_gender and female_(lore)).
The purpose of this is so that when people who want to search for male/male posts but also want to include ambiguous/male posts don't come across potential female posts due to how the artworks don't always show the full picture.

thanks, now that made sense!

Everything about lore tags makes a lot more sense when you understand that the only reason for their existence was to attempt to bring an end to the decade-long hissy fit over fursonas being "misgendered". Outside of that context, you can ignore them entirely, which is by design.

The tag implication ferris_argyle -> male_(lore) (forum #319140) has been rejected by @bitWolfy.