I'm not try to stir up drama, but I want to understand where the line is with the new policy. If a humanoid character is underage but could appear old enough out of context, say a high schooler or even late middle schooler would that be allowed or a way to bypass this new policy? There's some anime characters that fit this gray area.

Conversely, if a humanoid character is older, but has a petite or small form, is that just completely disallowed now? I'm thinking someone like Senko-san.

Is tag what you see all that matters, and characters that don't fit body certain norms are just out?

I don't understand where this line is and I didn't what to go messing things up by flagging or not flagging things I shouldn't/should.

If they look young they are young
This was a dwarf
https://e621.net/posts/4929480

If they look like a young naked human with cat ears it's gone
If they aren't naked or performing some kind of explicit act it's fine

fliphook said:
If they look young they are young
This was a dwarf
https://e621.net/posts/4929480

If they look like a young naked human with cat ears it's gone
If they aren't naked or performing some kind of explicit act it's fine

Ok, what about the opposite direction. Underage characters who just look older? There's a lot of highschool and some middle school age characters that have enough curves to pass. Is it just appearance that matters? Like actual character age doesn't matter. If a character is underage then they're underage and explicit drawings of them are drawings of underage characters in explicit situations. If that doesn't actually matter then, I'd like that clarified, I guess?

reallyjustwantpr0n said:
Ok, what about the opposite direction. Underage characters who just look older? There's a lot of highschool and some middle school age characters that have enough curves to pass. Is it just appearance that matters? Like actual character age doesn't matter. If a character is underage then they're underage and explicit drawings of them are drawings of underage characters in explicit situations. If that doesn't actually matter then, I'd like that clarified, I guess?

17 years old but does not break the rule

1000 years old but does in fact break the rule

Visual appearance counts for what is "young" first and foremost, but canonical age may also count for borderline depictions.
If the young character is uninvolved in any ongoing explicit activities themselves, or is not nude themselves, that is allowed.

it's all in the new guidelines

if it looks like it then it is

young_(lore) -young ~human ~humanoid

post #4104478
this is fine because while the human is young they are not doing anything explicit

gattonero2001 said:
17 years old but does not break the rule

1000 years old but does in fact break the rule

So underage characters in explicit situations are fine. They just have to look older. Like if I wanted to draw something about a humanoid kid going through precocious puberty and being taken advantage of, that would be fine so long as they look like an adult they are one?

essentially, go find a body proportions chart between human adults and children, and take note of it if you want to draw adults or young human(oid)s and anthros. infants and children have different proportions than adults, so so long as you draw them with adult proportions, they should not get tagged young on e6. some of the more prominent ones are head to shoulders/torso ratio and arms & legs to torso ratio, however stuff like complexion also shows or betrays one's age. teens might differ wildly from one another due to puberty, but there's still an expected ratio that you could find and use/avoid for proportions.

siral_exan said:
essentially, go find a body proportions chart between adults and children, and take note of it if you want to draw adults or young characters. infants and children have different proportions than adults, so so long as you draw them with adult proportions, they should not get tagged young on e6. some of the more prominent ones are head to shoulders/torso ratio and arms & legs to torso ratio, however stuff like complexion also shows or betrays one's age. teens might differ wildly from one another due to puberty, but there's still an expected ratio that you could find and use/avoid for proportions.

Right, but that wasn't my question though. Does it matter if a character is actually underage or not. Not just their appearance but their actual age. It's possible to be very young but still have adult proportions.

For instance could I commission a comic about a humanoid furry kid going through very early puberty and looking like an adult even though they're not even a teenage yet. Would that be allow since they would look like an adult? Are depictions of underage characters in explicit situations allowed so long as they have the right body type?

Is the fact that a character underage actually realavent or is it just their looks?

reallyjustwantpr0n said:

Is the fact that a character underage actually realavent or is it just their looks?

It's not relevant except in borderline cases where whether it's allowed falls to lore

snpthecat said:
It's not relevant except in borderline cases where whether it's allowed falls to lore

ehh... even in borderline cases it should still be weighted by appearance alone. _maybe_ behavior or, like, "vibes" after that, but lore still shouldn't be taken into account when tagging a general tag.

dba_afish said:
ehh... even in borderline cases it should still be weighted by appearance alone. _maybe_ behavior or, like, "vibes" after that, but lore still shouldn't be taken into account when tagging a general tag.

So again, an image of a young/child humanoid engaging in explicit/sexual acts is fine, they just need to have breasts and curves basically. The fact that they're underage is meaningless. It's not the age of the character or that they're young that's the problem, it's just the body type and that they look "wrong".

I guess I just want that bit of clarification from a mod or admin that says that posting underage characters is fine, we just can't show characters that don't fit expected body types for an adult if the character is too human like. Because that's what I'm getting from everyone else.

I get I'm probably not going to get that from the admins or mods though... This is just, confusing. Like it has nothing to do with depictions of children, just that some people see a body form as 'icky'. I guess if everything humanoid and underage was banned it would at least make sense to me. But I guess it does make sense, it's not the age that matters just how they look. Young/child depictions are fine you just can't make them look like kids. Which to me seems more confusing somehow, like it wasn't done with the purpose of actually stopping depictions of young characters just to hide it better and take out unrelated things along the way to make it look like something is being done.

I said I didn't want to start drama... I guess I have my answer. It just, seems worse then both doing nothing or banning everything (relevant).

Yes, porn of the Robin Williams movie Jack or adult-proportioned homunculus baby Jesus is fine. But like, how often are you coming across this? These are uncommon edge cases. Beyond that, without knowledge of the artist's intent could you recognize an image as depicting "a child with an adult's body" versus "an adult participating in abdl"?

regsmutt said:
Yes, porn of the Robin Williams movie Jack or adult-proportioned homunculus baby Jesus is fine. But like, how often are you coming across this? These are uncommon edge cases. Beyond that, without knowledge of the artist's intent could you recognize an image as depicting "a child with an adult's body" versus "an adult participating in abdl"?

All the time.

Most characters from popular anime for instance are underage. Like My hero, many of those are 15 or younger, even if they have curves and you do know the artist's intent because they're 1st or 2nd year high schoolers. That's just one example. Underage characters are fine, you just can't have small or petite adults because that's gross. Like this is the worst of both worlds, and they're still allowing underage humanoids. I mean, this is actually worse, and the more I think about it the more I hate it. It's like saying you're not a kid any more just because you look like an adult. Being hit on by 30+ age woman as a 10 year old is fine if you look like an adult, that's allowed. But an adult who's underdeveloped and small can never be in a relationship. It has nothing to do with stopping underage characters and everything to do with keeping up appearances instead. I'm taking this personally and I know I shouldn't, but the more I think about it because it reinforces the bullshit that happened to me, you aren't a kid because you look like an adult. No that's bullshit, and worse then before.

reallyjustwantpr0n said:
All the time.

Most characters from popular anime for instance are underage. Like My hero, many of those are 15 or younger, even if they have curves and you do know the artist's intent because they're 1st or 2nd year high schoolers. That's just one example. Underage characters are fine, you just can't have small or petite adults because that's gross. Like this is the worst of both worlds, and they're still allowing underage humanoids. I mean, this is actually worse, and the more I think about it the more I hate it. It's like saying you're not a kid any more just because you look like an adult. Being hit on by 30+ age woman as a 10 year old is fine if you look like an adult, that's allowed. But an adult who's underdeveloped and small can never be in a relationship. It has nothing to do with stopping underage characters and everything to do with keeping up appearances instead. I'm taking this personally and I know I shouldn't, but the more I think about it because it reinforces the bullshit that happened to me, you aren't a kid because you look like an adult. No that's bullshit, and worse then before.

Dont blame (that much) the mods and admins, blame the people who owns plastic cards business that you can transfer money... there are other people with less rules for uploading art, e621 just has less content you can upload now : \

reallyjustwantpr0n said:
All the time.

Most characters from popular anime for instance are underage. Like My hero, many of those are 15 or younger, even if they have curves and you do know the artist's intent because they're 1st or 2nd year high schoolers. That's just one example. Underage characters are fine, you just can't have small or petite adults because that's gross. Like this is the worst of both worlds, and they're still allowing underage humanoids. I mean, this is actually worse, and the more I think about it the more I hate it. It's like saying you're not a kid any more just because you look like an adult. Being hit on by 30+ age woman as a 10 year old is fine if you look like an adult, that's allowed. But an adult who's underdeveloped and small can never be in a relationship. It has nothing to do with stopping underage characters and everything to do with keeping up appearances instead. I'm taking this personally and I know I shouldn't, but the more I think about it because it reinforces the bullshit that happened to me, you aren't a kid because you look like an adult. No that's bullshit, and worse then before.

You're right it has nothing to do with stopping underaged characters- it was about satisfying legal threats towards unnamed business partners. Anyway, I thought you were more discussing young in general than teens/tweens, so my bad. That has always been a sticky area because of style and whatnot, especially when you take 'aging up' into account. You're right that visual identification isn't the best way, but lore alone isn't either since it doesn't always exist, and when it does, doesn't always apply to the image in question (aged up art, AUs, filing-off-the-serial-numbers, etc), and when it meets both of those it might be more of a loophole than anything. There isn't really a good way to classify it that won't give false positives- fictional characters don't carry ID or have any way other than how they are depicted in a specific piece of media to tell you how old they are. Since the media here is visual, that's the criteria that gets used.

notknow said:
Dont blame (that much) the mods and admins, blame the people who owns plastic cards business that you can transfer money... there are other people with less rules for uploading art, e621 just has less content you can upload now : \

They were stuck between a rock and hard place. I get that. But, once you start down the road of censorship, it doesn't normally stop. From their perspective that they had two choices, comply and allow some (most) material to continue to exist, or fold. They chose to cut a group that's easy to throw away, and opened other groups just bellow them to the same fate in the future. Not that it will come but, it becomes that much easier now. Really though, the thing I do blame them for, is inconstancy and what is (unintentionally) body shaming and promotion of body types as "ideals".

This is going to be TMI I'm sorry, but I want to tell this, I have to tell this. I'm a guy, but I hit puberty very, VERY early. It fucked me up physically and mentally. Being 10 and getting hit on by 30 year old woman is not as fun as it might sound. When the cops tell you to "man up", that you're a "grown man" at 10... When you get the living shit beat out of you by a guy in college because "you're an adult" who doesn't understand that his girlfriend is flirting with you, there's a reason I can't use my hands to draw. These rule changes hit me personally in ways that aren't fair to the admin staff. But ways that I have a hard time overlooking either. They're still allowing works of underage characters, because they look like adults. If the goal is to appease their business partners and remove underage works, they're doing it wrong, and causing more damage.

On the opposite end, you have woman for instance who are small, and perhaps even a bit underdeveloped. We're basically saying they aren't real woman. That's just as toxic of an idea. If this policy was self consistent and didn't focus on pushing body norms, I wouldn't be complaining but it's not.

regsmutt said:
You're right it has nothing to do with stopping underaged characters- it was about satisfying legal threats towards unnamed business partners. Anyway, I thought you were more discussing young in general than teens/tweens, so my bad. That has always been a sticky area because of style and whatnot, especially when you take 'aging up' into account. You're right that visual identification isn't the best way, but lore alone isn't either since it doesn't always exist, and when it does, doesn't always apply to the image in question (aged up art, AUs, filing-off-the-serial-numbers, etc), and when it meets both of those it might be more of a loophole than anything. There isn't really a good way to classify it that won't give false positives- fictional characters don't carry ID or have any way other than how they are depicted in a specific piece of media to tell you how old they are. Since the media here is visual, that's the criteria that gets used.

Which they aren't doing. If the legal threats are like the others I've seen from other sites ANY underage characters are verboten. Even just lore wise that would be enough to be called underage. It's not that visual identification isn't the best way, by itself it's not a way period, and there are still underage characters on this site, even on the "front page" right now. And like I pointed out above, you're adding baggage by effectively saying an adult isn't a "real adult", a woman isn't a "real woman" nor a man a "real man" unless they tick boxes about body norms, ignore everything else. For a community that is suppose to be accepting to different body types, that is toxic.

Sorry, I wasn't even going to post again, but these comments stirred up bad memories and I just... had to get them out. IF the policy was more consistent. and didn't falsely label characters (in both directions) I would be far less against it. But that's not what's happening.

reallyjustwantpr0n said:
They were stuck between a rock and hard place. I get that. But, once you start down the road of censorship, it doesn't normally stop. From their perspective that they had two choices, comply and allow some (most) material to continue to exist, or fold. They chose to cut a group that's easy to throw away, and opened other groups just bellow them to the same fate in the future. Not that it will come but, it becomes that much easier now. Really though, the thing I do blame them for, is inconstancy and what is (unintentionally) body shaming and promotion of body types as "ideals".

This is going to be TMI I'm sorry, but I want to tell this, I have to tell this. I'm a guy, but I hit puberty very, VERY early. It fucked me up physically and mentally. Being 10 and getting hit on by 30 year old woman is not as fun as it might sound. When the cops tell you to "man up", that you're a "grown man" at 10... When you get the living shit beat out of you by a guy in college because "you're an adult" who doesn't understand that his girlfriend is flirting with you, there's a reason I can't use my hands to draw. These rule changes hit me personally in ways that aren't fair to the admin staff. But ways that I have a hard time overlooking either. They're still allowing works of underage characters, because they look like adults. If the goal is to appease their business partners and remove underage works, they're doing it wrong, and causing more damage.

On the opposite end, you have woman for instance who are small, and perhaps even a bit underdeveloped. We're basically saying they aren't real woman. That's just as toxic of an idea. If this policy was self consistent and didn't focus on pushing body norms, I wouldn't be complaining but it's not.

Which they aren't doing. If the legal threats are like the others I've seen from other sites ANY underage characters are verboten. Even just lore wise that would be enough to be called underage. It's not that visual identification isn't the best way, by itself it's not a way period, and there are still underage characters on this site, even on the "front page" right now. And like I pointed out above, you're adding baggage by effectively saying an adult isn't a "real adult", a woman isn't a "real woman" nor a man a "real man" unless they tick boxes about body norms, ignore everything else. For a community that is suppose to be accepting to different body types, that is toxic.

Sorry, I wasn't even going to post again, but these comments stirred up bad memories and I just... had to get them out. IF the policy was more consistent. and didn't falsely label characters (in both directions) I would be far less against it. But that's not what's happening.

I'm confused as to why you're confused. You basically summed it up a couple of posts ago:

reallyjustwantpr0n said:
Like it has nothing to do with depictions of children, just that some people see a body form as 'icky'.

That's basically the impetus behind this kind of pressure. Because most people will look at content that appears underaged and think 'yuck, that's immoral' it's a very safe political win. Not nearly as many people care if a character is underaged in lore, but looks like they aren't, simply because for a lot of people, it's an emotional reaction, not a physical one.
I personally think that while the purge was not handled perfectly, it looks like the mods tried to craft the rules with care to preserve as much as was feasible in the rules.

We are not rehashing the reasoning behind the rule change again.