"Our mission: To archive the best/strangest/most excellent animal/anthro-related artwork, regardless of content, for all those who wish to view it."

I feel like this statement, or at least a shorter version of it, should be visible on the homepage or somewhere more obvious than the Wiki page. I don't feel like enough people realize this site is for archiving, not for strictly uploading one's content like on dA or FA. The fact that half my uploads were deleted because the original artist thought I was "stealing their art" (when all of it was sourced and tagged with their artist name, hilariously) shows that not many people are really aware of the purpose of this site. I just think it would be nice to make the purpose more visible to new visitors.

I also want to add that, after the artist mentioned above realized what the site was, they didn't have a problem with their art being here and even considered thanking me. :I Which is why I feel it should be a liiittle more obvious that this site isn't ~just artt thiefz lawl~. To avoid such silly mishaps.

Or you could have asked the artist beforehand to make sure he is okay with you uploading his artwork someplace else.
That isn't in the rules without a reason.

Always ask an artist before posting their shit on other sites. They tend to be fussy about that kind of thing. Weird creatures, I know.

As others have said, if you ask artists first, then you won't run into situations like what you just described. Not to mention it gives them a better impression of e621 users if one of them actually takes the time to ask the artist for permission first.

The site will continue to grow and try to find ways to be more attractive to artists, but e621's users are always going to be a major factor in how artists think of the site. Just take a look at the takedown requests we get and see just how many of them specifically mention that they weren't asked for permission to have their artwork posted on e621: https://e621.net/take_down

Alright, since my suggestion will just go ignored, forget I even brought it up in the first place, thanks.

Kida said:
Alright, since my suggestion will just go ignored, forget I even brought it up in the first place, thanks.

No one ignored it, we gave you a perfectly suitable alternative, which is, ask the damn artist before you upload.

I agree with the other comments that the user should really just ask first instead of assuming the artist will look up the site, but I can't see any reason not to have the mission statement up on the splash page, besides aesthetics.

corgi_bread said:
No one ignored it, we gave you a perfectly suitable alternative, which is, ask the damn artist before you upload.

Which is a rule[/i].

With 100% of the uploaders sticking to that rule without failure, this site would basically have jack-shit on it. Having the best and easiest-to-use interface of any image archive means precisely dick if you don't have anything to fucking index.

Foobaria said:
With 100% of the uploaders sticking to that rule without failure, this site would basically have jack-shit on it. Having the best and easiest-to-use interface of any image archive means precisely dick if you don't have anything to fucking index.

You're immediately assuming that the majority of artists do not want their artwork redistributed, even with proper permission, credit, and a link back. Why do you think that this is the case?

Char said:
You're immediately assuming that the majority of artists do not want their artwork redistributed, even with proper permission, credit, and a link back. Why do you think that this is the case?

Because we have a DNP list?

Renard_Queenston said:
Because we have a DNP list?

If we had a white list this said white list would dwarf the DNP List by a good margin.

Renard_Queenston said:
Because we have a DNP list?

Which is only a tiny infinitesimal fraction of the furry artists out there.

*edit*

NotMeNotYou said:
Or you could have asked the artist beforehand to make sure he is okay with you uploading his artwork someplace else.
That isn't in the rules without a reason.

This rule is in place, but it is never, ever enforced. I have never seen anyone get reprimanded or receive a record for not asking an artist if they can post their art since this rule was put into place.

Renard_Queenston said:
Because we have a DNP list?

Which is a TINY fraction of the amount of artists that are represented on the site. I mean REALLY small. Yes you're going to see some of the more "popular" artists there, but even then it's a very small sampling of the good artists on the site.

I haven't mentioned it in a while now, but a couple of years ago, Tony went back and asked every single person on his FA watch list if he could continue uploading their artwork to e621 (after first admitting to them that he'd already been doing so without their permission) as long as he credited and linked back to them. This was nearly 500 artists. Of those 500, he had 89% came back and said that it was totally fine, even after he'd already been doing it without their permission.

I'm not claiming that's a bullet-proof scientific study or anything, but I highly doubt the "real" numbers are that far off in either direction.

I just refuse to believe that artists are as stuck up as people keep assuming they are. I'd even say the MAJORITY of takedown requests that the site receives specifically state "I was not asked for permission first" as the reason why they want the artwork removed. Whether or not they would allow it even if they WERE asked for permission is something that's harder to know, but I think it becomes a little more clear when you take into account the results of the effort made by Tony that I mentioned.

I think what's happening is artists saying "If you can't treat me with just a little respect and ask me first before doing whatever you want with my art, then no, I'm not going to allow it to stay on the site." Whether or not you think that's a logical thought process is irrelevant; e621.net's admins respect artists wishes to have their art removed, and thus it's up to the user(s) uploading the artist's artwork to make sure that they have permission first, because that's the rule that the artist wants to play by.

The site's staff will continue to try to come up with new ways of encouraging artists to allow e621 to host their artwork, but there's nothing we can do about people uploading without permission, unless we completely changed the way the site operates.

well thats discouraged me from uploading again

Renard_Queenston said:
well thats discouraged me from uploading again

The fact that I just reassured you that probably MOST artists will tell you that they're ok with you uploading their artwork, as long as you ask them first, has DIScouraged you from uploading again?

What? :|

Because it's more than likely most artists would never reply, refuse, or demand some form of art in return.

Also, it's to be noted that whenever I type in 'zero punctuation', I'm usually joking/being sarcastic/blunt/cynical.

I've never had an artist refuse to allow my uploading of their work.

Well I have.

But when uploading art that
1. Belongs to artist who have dozens of art uploaded already and hasn't made any takedown request.
2. Is fanart/rule 34 and doesn't contain original characters (do not steal) at all.
3. It's not kind of special gift to very close friend or something like that.

it's okay to assume that someone have already asked for permission, right? Not that I did it with majority of my uploads. It's not true at all!

whatever

All of the artists I actually started to ask before I uploaded either said "No" or "Go fuck yourself" in response. One even asked me to write a scat fic in 'payment'.

So nah.

Gilda_The_Gryphon said:
But when uploading art that
1. Belongs to artist who have dozens of art uploaded already and hasn't made any takedown request.
2. Is fanart/rule 34 and doesn't contain original characters (do not steal) at all.
3. It's not kind of special gift to very close friend or something like that.

it's okay to assume that someone have already asked for permission, right? Not that I did it with majority of my uploads. It's not true at all!

It's more likely that it's ok, but again, take a look at some of the monster-sized takedown requests that asked us to remove artwork that had been on the site for YEARS. They usually don't just suddenly change their mind; it's more that they just finally decided to try to do something about it, or they just discovered the site.

I don't blame users for uploading artwork from a particular artist if they see that a lot of that artist's artwork has already been uploaded; I realize that it does give an impression of "oh, they already have a lot of art here, so surely they know about it by now and must be ok with it". A lot of times that's true, and a lot of times it's not. The user still assumes that risk if uploading without permission.

And again, no, asking for permission is obviously nothing we can enforce (unless after the fact, like dinging users who uploaded something that was later taken down because the artist said they weren't asked for permission first). It's just something that we really want to encourage users to do, because when it doesn't happen, takedown requests happen instead.

Since this thread has become focused on discussion about artist permissions. And since site suggestions are meant to be posted in the official thread. I went ahead and posted the suggestion part of this with my own two cents over in the site suggestions thread which is where it probably belongs.

On the subject of securing artist's permissions, I'd imagine it's mostly in the how you ask rather than the fact you asked which makes the most difference in how artists respond. I say this because I used to do some door to door sales in my youth, and the way it was presented made a complete night and day difference. Method and phrasing is everything. Yes, some artists will always say no. Their reasons could be anything you can think of, and nothing will change their mind. But if it's explained well, friendly and polite, then a lot of artists are flattered, happy that you want to do it for them, have no problem with it but are glad you asked first. Some are even thrilled or grateful, though don't expect that from everyone. Each artist differs, which is to be expected from different people.

The key points to cover seem to be:

• if you're polite and friendly.
• If you explain what this site is, why you want to share it here, etc.
• Make sure they know it will be linked back and credited/sourced accurately.
• Letting them know what they stand to gain from it, by being a great way for them to be seen by new users. Because we do get a LOT of traffic through here from places that FA, DA and inkbunny, etc don't get.

Someone else may chime in with other points I missed, but I suspect those are some of the most important things to communicate. Successful artist requests I've seen usually cover some if not all of these points. They're just things artists tend to want to know. It gives your request context. It lets them know how well their art is going to be taken care of. etc.

And when stuff like this is explained up front, a lot of artists do end up being fine with it. Some just need more information than a short "can I do this?" can give them about what you're asking for. And if someone doesn't give any context then many artists may say no out of ignorance, prejudice or just an automatic reaction to thinking you want to claim it as your own somehow. The way you approach it and how much explanation you give them can actually make all the difference. (They also may say no at first, but later rethink it. Or choose to upload some of it themselves. Or say yes to someone else in about a year or so in the future. You just never know how it will go.)

You can give all the tips and conversational hints you want, some of us just don't want to try it anymore.

Enough bad experiences with the shit-tier communicators and people of the art community will make you not care anymore.

Renard_Queenston said:
whatever

All of the artists I actually started to ask before I uploaded either said "No" or "Go fuck yourself" in response. One even asked me to write a scat fic in 'payment'.

So nah.

Kiparis said:
You can give all the tips and conversational hints you want, some of us just don't want to try it anymore.

Enough bad experiences with the shit-tier communicators and people of the art community will make you not care anymore.

My question is, how did you guys ask them? When I ask an artist to upload their art on here, I am as polite as possible. If they don't want it uploaded, I get "Sorry, but no thanks" or "No, please don't upload it there".

My god, Char, you live in a fantasy world. Let me list ALL the fucking ways it backfires:

*) Artist is unreachable due to not even knowing who the fuck they are.
*) Artist is unreachable due to not wanting to be contacted by rabid furries.
*) Artist is unreachable due to Google Translate not being good enough to be understood.
*) Artist goes "I don't want my art on some porn site."
*) Artist goes "I don't want my art on some chan-wannabe."
*) Artist never would find out about this site on their own if not mentioned, but if mentioned, immediately there is a no.
*) Artist is a stuck-up asshole.
*) Artist goes "I don't want to have to maintain my art on multiple sites and try to collate feedback."

Oh hey, that's not even ALL of them, and I'm tired of typing.

Just say it: "We are owned by somebody who can get in serious shit by being sued, so we're being super-sure we can't be sued.". Just say it. I'll take it as a valid excuse. Give me a "Yeah it sucks, but life sucks, and this is life." and that's fine. I put up with life.

Damn you are negative.

How hard is it to believe some people like to not step on others peoples toes wherever possible?
How hard can it be to show courtesy towards the creator of the work we host here and simply ask them if they are okay with it? It is their art, their time and work put into it, if they wish that it does or does not show up here then that is not only their decision alone but also one we will honor, no matter what.

Yes, there is the chance being sued, but do you know how many could actually pay for that lawsuit? There are like 4 people on FA with enough cash to file a DMCA and we offer this service basically for free.

And last but not least, of all the artists I asked the worst thing happened to me was one not responding and the other saying "No, I do not want my art reposted".
I've no idea what you guys write them but it doesn't look effective from over here.

Foobaria said:
LIIIIST

You forgot the "Artists who remember how shitty e621 used to be, and don't know it improved" one.

NotMeNotYou said:
I've no idea what you guys write them but it doesn't look effective from over here.

Not all artists react the same way, there are some that can be real assholes (sorry for a lack of better term). Maybe you had the luck of asking artists that are decent enough to reply with courtesy, and others didn't.

Foobaria said:
My god, Char, you live in a fantasy world. Let me list ALL the fucking ways it backfires:

*) Artist is unreachable due to not even knowing who the fuck they are.
*) Artist is unreachable due to not wanting to be contacted by rabid furries.
*) Artist is unreachable due to Google Translate not being good enough to be understood.
*) Artist goes "I don't want my art on some porn site."
*) Artist goes "I don't want my art on some chan-wannabe."
*) Artist never would find out about this site on their own if not mentioned, but if mentioned, immediately there is a no.
*) Artist is a stuck-up asshole.
*) Artist goes "I don't want to have to maintain my art on multiple sites and try to collate feedback."

Oh hey, that's not even ALL of them, and I'm tired of typing.

At no point did I say that you are absolutely forbidden from uploading artwork without permission. Again, the whole point of asking for permission is to try to MINIMIZE the amount of takedowns the site receives. Even if the artist specifically tells you to not upload their artwork, it doesn't mean you can't. We would really really like that you NOT upload it at that point, yes, because it's only going to lead to a takedown and a damaged reputation, but again we have no way of knowing who has asked for permission and who hasn't.

If you don't know who the artist is, then there's not much you can do. Again, this doesn't mean that you can't upload the picture. In fact it might be beneficial to do so, in case someone else does recognize who the artist is and can tag appropriately.

Your mentioned examples of an artist rejecting a request to repost their artwork are often the same reasons they provide when they fill out a takedown request (though "No one asked me for permission" is still the most common). I'm afraid I don't really understand what you're trying to explain by mentioning them. It's far better, in my opinion, for that rejection to happen sooner rather than later in the form of a takedown request.

Foobaria said:
Just say it: "We are owned by somebody who can get in serious shit by being sued, so we're being super-sure we can't be sued.". Just say it. I'll take it as a valid excuse. Give me a "Yeah it sucks, but life sucks, and this is life." and that's fine. I put up with life.

Would you believe that I actually do care about artists? :x It wouldn't matter if I was legally obligated to remove images or not, I'd remove them because I wouldn't want to be in charge of a site with a reputation of ignoring DMCA/takedown requests. Same for BD. It has little to do with legality, and everything to do with reputation.

Foobaria said:
*) Artist is unreachable due to not even knowing who the fuck they are.
*) Artist is unreachable due to not wanting to be contacted by rabid furries.
*) Artist is unreachable due to Google Translate not being good enough to be understood.
*) Artist goes "I don't want my art on some porn site."
*) Artist goes "I don't want my art on some chan-wannabe."
*) Artist never would find out about this site on their own if not mentioned, but if mentioned, immediately there is a no.
*) Artist is a stuck-up asshole.
*) Artist goes "I don't want to have to maintain my art on multiple sites and try to collate feedback."

Renard_Queenston said:
whatever

All of the artists I actually started to ask before I uploaded either said "No" or "Go fuck yourself" in response. One even asked me to write a scat fic in 'payment'.

So nah.

I've asked permission from over 200 different artists. Only about 4 failed to respond. A decent portion said no (roughly 10-15%), but I have never received a negative or hostile response. So if you're getting "go fuck yourself" as an answer, then you need to change how you're asking.

Foobaria said:
ANGER

You contribute literally nothing to this site, I don't think you're in any position to tell administration how wrong they are about asking artists if you can upload their art.

Char said:
Would you believe that I actually do care about artists? :x It wouldn't matter if I was legally obligated to remove images or not, I'd remove them because I wouldn't want to be in charge of a site with a reputation of ignoring DMCA/takedown requests. Same for BD. It has little to do with legality, and everything to do with reputation.

Okay, let's start a new list: This will be a list of all valid reasons an artist might want their art not on this site, reasons that make sense and have logic and practicality behind them.

*) Art is for-profit behind some sort of paywall.

(Oh, wait: We already have a rule for that, so that doesn't count.)

*) ....um....drawin' a blank here...ow my brain...

Nope. Everything else come down to ego, control issues, or both at once. Other than lost revenue, there is precisely jack-shit that an artist can lose by having their art on another site with full linking and accredidation. So, you'll have to understand if I don't give a flying rat's ass about someone's ego.

Foobaria said:
Nope. Everything else come down to ego, control issues, or both at once. Other than lost revenue, there is precisely jack-shit that an artist can lose by having their art on another site with full linking and accredidation. So, you'll have to understand if I don't give a flying rat's ass about someone's ego.

They still have a copyright claim over their art, which we legally have to respect, regardless of your feelings about artists and how they act.

corgi_bread said:
They still have a copyright claim over their art, which we legally have to respect, regardless of your feelings about artists and how they act.

I'm aware of that, and as I already said, if the answer I got was "Because we are avoiding being sued", I would accept it. What I'm getting is "respect the artists" and I can't respect an artist who is anal-retentive over what happens to shit they post to the internet for free.

Reason to post to the Internet: To share it. Reason someone posts it to e621: To share it. And somehow suddenly the artist's going "nuh uh don't want to share it". Nonsense.

You get more flies with honey, and if we routinely told artists to fuck off with their takedowns because they're not threatening legal action, our DNP list would grow in leaps and bounds and the available pool of artists who don't mind having their art on E6 would get very dry indeed.

By allowing them their takedowns, we prevent them from spreading the word to other artists that E6 is led by a bunch of fuckheads, and to not allow your art to be posted there in the first place.

corgi_bread said:
By allowing them their takedowns, we prevent them from spreading the word to other artists that E6 is led by a bunch of fuckheads-

To be fair, some of them will do this anyway.

Kiparis said:
To be fair, some of them will do this anyway.

But why increase the number if we don't have to?

Foobaria said:
I'm aware of that, and as I already said, if the answer I got was "Because we are avoiding being sued", I would accept it. What I'm getting is "respect the artists" and I can't respect an artist who is anal-retentive over what happens to shit they post to the internet for free.

Oh please.

If Varka was afraid of being sued, he'd never bought the ship in the first place, don't be an idiot.

I'm the one who made the ask first and respect the artists rule, not BD, not char. And the reason for that? I had a bunch of artist friends who constantly just complained no one asked first.. and you know what? they started letting us upload when that rule came into affect. So you are not only wrong, but grossly, profoundly wrong.

Reason to post to the Internet: To share it. Reason someone posts it to e621: To share it. And somehow suddenly the artist's going "nuh uh don't want to share it". Nonsense.

Some people don't post to the internet to share it. Some post it to expand their ego, some do it to give to friends, and some do it for profit. If you don't know how to tailor your requests to accommodate for those kinds of artists, then stick to artists we already have permission to upload. (Here's a thought? Ever think of making a DO upload list? So people won't constantly ask artists? It really worked well for 20pc.)

Aurali said:
(Here's a thought? Ever think of making a DO upload list? So people won't constantly ask artists? It really worked well for 20pc.)

I suggested it once - it wasn't approved. I can't remember reason why, and I can't find it because forum search apparently don't support even nickname + keywords search.

---
I found it - https://e621.net/forum/show/48099

ippiki ookami said:

I have around 3 full pages of notes on FA that are almost exclusively messages asking for permission. But I only ask if they don't already have art on the site.

And that's a no-go on the Do-Post list. 20PC has one because all they have to worry about is pony artists. We have tens of thousands of artists we'd have to list, many of whom could end up changing their mind anyway. Not to mention it would be an unreasonably daunting task, considering its redundancy and impracticality. And I doubt any mods here would have the time or desire to undertake such an implausible endeavor.

Just look at the DNP list. Is the artist there? If not, then it's fine. If the art gets removed, then it gets removed.