I've been mulling over a topic in my head and I've been wondering if I am, in fact, harbouring a prejudice opinion. And IF I am, can I get over it?

The topic I've been contemplating is transsexuals!
I'm a gay male and naturally, I have a lot of friends of mixed sexuality and occasionally questionable gender. It's this latter one that I can sometimes have trouble with.
Okay, so let's say I've been talking to a 'guy' for a few hours and as the night progresses I learned that the contents of 'his' pants is actually a vagina. This person says "yes, but call me a GUY."
"Okay!" I say, not wanting to cause a debate over it. What I want to say is "Okay, but that would technically be lying. Both anatomically and genetically, you are female. I could tell people that I'm a banana but that wouldn't make it so."
I keep these opinions to myself because every time I've chased them down it's only led to deep resentment, but I can't logically understand people who say gender is ultimately down to opinion. I've been told that genetically, gender is more of a sliding scale than a simple binary. Now, leaving aside born hermaphrodites (who are so astoundingly rare it's considered a genetic mutation) I'm not sure I entirely buy this. Yes, you can get butch women or effeminate men, but they are still identifiably male or female. They unanimously have either XX or XY chromosomes and are born with genitalia to match. Regardless of mental state, it seems pretty binary to me!

I encounter a similar problem with people claiming to be 'pansexuals'. Now, I've rarely come across a satisfactory definition from this term. 'Pan' meaning 'many' would mean a sexual preference for every gender. Now, in my book, this numbers down to two which means 'bisexual'. I've heard people say pansexual can refer to a preference for personality, regardless of gender, which again, simply means bisexual. If you decided you only wanted to sleep with dogs regardless of gender, that wouldn't make you a 'dogsexual'. You'd still be bisexual, with a preference for dogs.
'Pansexual' only works if you buy into this sliding scale of gender, which as I already said, I don't really get. Even if genders did work like that, how would anyone know how to refer to each other? I'm sorry to break it to you, but if every conversation started with "what gender are you?" people would just stop talking to anyone they didn't already know.

Now, all that above is my opinion. If I'm ever near someone who is sensative to this topic, I just keep it to myself. It could be I'm completely wrong about it and I'm just too small-minded to get my head around something like.... well, whatever it is I'm not seeing. But here's my problem; In my personal experience, everyone who has argued against this viewpoint has almost unanimously been on some form of prescribed mental stabilizers or has a history of self-harm or has straight-up gone apeshit insane in my face.

I am trying very VERY hard, not to come to what seems like the only logical conclusion in this. I know a viewpoint like that is bigoted and wrong, but what else am I meant to think? I've had my own problems, sure, but unless you really got to know me, you'd think I was a perfectly functional human being! Why is it the case that transexual/pansexual crowds tend to have a much higher rate of mental instability? Have I just been really unlucky meeting all these characters?
My first french kiss was with a transexual man, something I regret both now and then as I wasn't that attracted to him. Could I be harbouring prejudice stemming from that small piece of trauma? I want to be grown-up about this. If I have a problem, then I need to try and work on it. To face it head on.

So come at me bro! I'm listening to why I'm wrong about this.

elad said:
Why is it the case that transexual/pansexual crowds tend to have a much higher rate of mental instability?

Your question reminds of something else:
Why is the suicide rate among homosexuals higher than among heterosexuals?
Depending on whether you're pro-homosexual or anti-homosexual, the answer is either:
- because they're being discriminated against (pro-homosexual)
- because they all have self-destructive tendencies / because deep down they realize they're evil sinners (anti-homosexual)

Munkelzahn said:
Your question reminds of something else:
Why is the suicide rate among homosexuals higher than among heterosexuals?
Depending on whether you're pro-homosexual or anti-homosexual, the answer is either:
- because they're being discriminated against (pro-homosexual)
- because they all have self-destructive tendencies / because deep down they realize they're evil sinners (anti-homosexual)

It has occurred to me. This could all just be the product of society. There is a slight difference here; the people pointing to homo-suicide are usually just finding statistics. In the case of my argument, I'm only going off first-hand experience. Not that that makes your argument invalid. Could be the same deal, just more extreme.

AbsebaroKoon said:
As for you Elad, I don't care about anyone with a girly look, I rather have a man acting like a high school girl then a high school guy looking like a high school girl, you know?

Well, yeah, I'm not a fan of the girly look (duh), but I have no problem with not finding someone attractive :V. I don't mind anyone for how they look. My problem is when people get very agro about an issue which, to me, seems to have an obvious conclusion and the possibility of me being completely wrong! (again, still not convinced yet that i AM wrong on this)

I think you're thinking of gender identity as a solely physical attribute, whereas transsexuals generally feel it's a purely psychological one. There's no absolute right or wrong, you're just thinking in different contexts.

I don't mind transexuals in general. If a woman wants to be a man, great, be my guest. A man believing they're a woman? Go for it. As far as I'm concerned, it's nothing more than a pronoun switch.

The one thing I criticize in transexualism is gender reassignment surgery; the name is misleading. It doesn't really give a man a vagina, it just takes his penis and jury-rigs it so it sort of looks like one (and vice versa for women).

This is worryingly close to a troll thread.

Presuming it isn't, I'm curious as to why this affects you so much. Someone else doing something with their own body is really of no concern for you, at least it shouldn't be. If a guy decides he wants to be a woman (or vice-versa) this shouldn't affect you in the least. Does it physically injure you to allow people to express their own opinions and desires of their body? If no, then let it be.

Blaziken said:
This is worryingly close to a troll thread.

Presuming it isn't, I'm curious as to why this affects you so much. Someone else doing something with their own body is really of no concern for you, at least it shouldn't be. If a guy decides he wants to be a woman (or vice-versa) this shouldn't affect you in the least. Does it physically injure you to allow people to express their own opinions and desires of their body? If no, then let it be.

No troll! I'd be a hypocrite if I go about calling myself open-minded while simultaneously harbouring a grudge on what is, to some, a sensitive issue. I decided to pose the question where there's likely to be a good portion of relevant people!
And normally, I'd agree with you. The thing is when it does come up (and given that sex comes up a lot in conversations amongst my friends, it's hard to avoid) I get a lot of beef for it. Some people seem to get very upset when I use the wrong pronoun. I'm trying my best but reality is staring me in the face and I find it hard to say 'she' instead of 'he' when the guy still looks very much like a guy.
and in the few cases where i've met a very extreme reaction (and it has happened!) I naturally try to defend my opinion. The arguement ends with them thinking I'm a bigot and me thinking they're a complete psycho.

So it's hard for me to say to myself that transgenderism or transexualism or whatever you want to call it, is a natural thing. I agree that people should be allowed to express themselves any way they like, but is it right that I get so much flack for responding with my visual impression?
I've learnt to keep my mouth shut whenever mixing genders comes up because anything i say seems to end up offending someone, and as a result i feel resentful for not being able to express my opinion. Am i really a bigot or are the people I'm hanging out with just nuts? It has to be one!

And as for psychology, that doesn't really solve my problem. How can I know what someone believes they are? When someone says they're a woman when they are in fact a man; that's directly contradicting physical reality. And when your mental state no longer coincides with reality, it's called insanity.
I... I just don't know how to see this! I'm expected to just buy into whatever other people believe? We don't do that for religion or politics?
Is this what everyone else is doing?

I'll have to be honest. From reading what you're saying, and this isn't meant to be an asshole-ish comment, you really are acting kind of bigoted. Then again, everyone does, so take that as you will.

elad said:
So it's hard for me to say to myself that transgenderism or transexualism or whatever you want to call it, is a natural thing. I agree that people should be allowed to express themselves any way they like, but is it right that I get so much flack for responding with my visual impression?

Yes and no, it is right and it isn't. If you don't decide to learn enough about the person (and this is a conscious effort) then you really shouldn't be using gender-specific pronouns in the first place. It's very possible for some people to get extremely hurt and annoyed when someone so blithely refers to them as 'him' or 'her'.

elad said:
And as for psychology, that doesn't really solve my problem. How can I know what someone believes they are? When someone says they're a woman when they are in fact a man; that's directly contradicting physical reality. And when your mental state no longer coincides with reality, it's called insanity.

Insanity or not, the situation does not preempt natural kindness and respect. There's a difference between 'just buying into what others believe' as you so roughly put it and paying respect to what others believe. Even if you don't believe it even one whit at least give them the kindness to address them as they want to be addressed. Not doing so is basically saying 'fuck you and everything you believe in, my worldview is correct and you're a fucktard for not following it'. If I run into a guy on the street that thinks the sky is green, then I'll let him think that and pay respect to his thoughts. I don't believe he's right, but I'm empathic enough to realize that if I flew into his face screaming about how the sky isn't green and he's an idiot to not believe it's blue then there's going to be some negative repercussions. And you seem to be hyperfocusing on those negative repercussions for not entertaining basic politeness.

TL;DR: Yes, you're acting bigoted but it's not just you who's doing it. It's both sides. Respect and kindness go a long way, remember that and you'll be peachy fine.

Blaziken said:
Even if you don't believe it even one whit at least give them the kindness to address them as they want to be addressed. Not doing so is basically saying 'fuck you and everything you believe in, my worldview is correct and you're a fucktard for not following it'. If I run into a guy on the street that thinks the sky is green, then I'll let him think that and pay respect to his thoughts. I don't believe he's right, but I'm empathic enough to realize that if I flew into his face screaming about how the sky isn't green and he's an idiot to not believe it's blue then there's going to be some negative repercussions. And you seem to be hyperfocusing on those negative repercussions for not entertaining basic politeness.

well, gee, when you put it that way :\
allright allright. I can try harder on this. I still can't say I understand, but I can try harder.

All right so, owing mostly from contributions from Kotep and Blaziken, I have reached two conclusions;
One, I have met a number of people who, in addition to wrestling with gender identity, are assholes. Them being assholes has nothing to do with their issues regarding gender or sexuality.
Two, I've also kinda been an asshole. It's better to just humour people when they tell me that they are something they're not, in the interest of just being a decent human being. And on the occasions where I'm finding pronouns difficult to keep up with, I should perhaps just shut up.

Looking back on what I typed, that's not exactly the friendliest wording I could have come up with, but I'm trying. Baby steps.

For a group of people who are (supposedly) rigidly against the idea of being defined by gender, they spend quite a lot of time trying to change their own.

I don't really see it as any different as people who identify themselves by, and believe they need, other cosmetic/plastic surgery. That's your own problem, I don't care, stop being so self-conscious about how you were born, I sure don't. I have no problem with what you decide to do, if you think you need the breast surgery/whatever, as long as you don't play victim. For the love of web admins who have to put "Male/Female" radio buttons on user registration forms, please!

Furry fandom seems to have a similar higher-than-average problem with people not being comfortable with themselves as they are. Maybe there's a correlation here.

But it's also asshole-ish to try and tell someone that you know better. 99.4% of the time our use of gender is completely arbitrary, so if they convince society to use a certain pronoun why go against it. For the other 0.6% of cases you're probably a doctor.

That said... that story is strangely hot. >_>

KloH0und said:
It doesn't really give a man a vagina, it just takes his penis and jury-rigs it so it sort of looks like one

It's quite realistic if done properly.

It blows my mind what some people will waste time worrying about.

ippiki_ookami said:
It blows my mind what some people will waste time worrying about.

Snowy said:
It's quite realistic if done properly.

It is still in no way a functioning vagina, because the structures and tissues required to make one are simply not there.

Now I'm going to have to ask what you mean by "functioning vagina".

Though I have heard that MtF SRS can be very realistic and effective (in terms of looks, feel, sensitivity), more so than FtM, does it self-lubricate in the way females do?

I think the biggest problem the OP is facing is ther difference between gender and sex.

SEX is the physical. the chromosomes, the anatomy. A person cannot change their Chromosomes. A person cannot will away their vagina, or their penis. These things cannot change. Even with reassignment surgery, the chromosomes will still be the same.

GENDER is the mind. GENDER is .... personality and aspects of self. GENDER is what makes a little girl look sadly in the mirror and wish her budding breasts would go away. GENDER is what makes little boys want to play house and dress up and want a barbie for christmas.

for most people SEX and GENDER are the same thing. the body aligns with the mind. This is 'normal'.

For a transgendered person--aka, the man with a vagina-- this is not the case. their BODY is one thing, but their mind says "this is not correct." Which is why the little boy wants a baby doll of his own and the girl wants to play cowboys and indians --because those are games closer to what their GENDER should play. it's not that they're thinkging "I want to be a boy/girl/whatever" it's jsut that that's what they find FUN. Just liek a regular little kid playing.

As they age, they become more body aware, more aware of their genitals, and more aware of the fact that they don't feel right.

Think of it.. .this way. If you get a limb amputated, you can still feel pain in it. your brain says "I should have an arm there." even when your eyes say otherwise, and you 'know' better. Only, instead of an arm, it's your penis, dancing around, becoming erect at the drop of a hat, reminding you CONSTANTLY of it's presence. Or your vagina, which has suddenly started to look really fucking weird and spews blood out every month. and while tha'ts all normal for your SEX, for your gender, all you can focus on is how FUCKIGN NOT RIGHT that is. Except that it's suposed to be right, so shhh. deal with it.

Except more peopel are learning that they don't have to shut up and deal with it. they can be manly if they want to. they can wear pretty dresses if they want to.. they can BE whatever they FEEL is right, in their mind. ...which is different then the body.

mayeb that helps a little. but I guess the tl;dr is that sex is the unchangeable body. gender is the mind, which does not always align with the body.

Oh I guess another good comparison would be homosexuality. Most people are not. Some people are, and some can go either way. but for the ones who ARE, it's not really an option. They CAN force themselves to pretend to be heterosexual, Sometimes they can even convince themselves, but chosing to be gay is not a choise. Being otherwise is a lie for them. same principal...

So.. saying "you're a girl, you have a vagina' is just like saying "you're not gay, you're just confused". kind of.

SnowWolf said:
Think of it.. .this way. If you get a limb amputated, you can still feel pain in it.

But most amputees don't identify themselves by their body. Convenience and medical issues aside, they're otherwise perfectly happy with who they are, I've never seen any such person feel sorry for themselves, and to the contrary, they're some of the most self-confident people. I'm not sure if you're making the point that the phantom limb phenomenon is literally the same, it might be figuratively similar, because it's a nervous system issue, not a personal identity issue.

I'd say gender is of culture. If people came from 100 years from the past they'd be wondering why half the guys, with their funny new blue pants, have swollen chests. There's nothing wrong with identified-males and identified-females having interests counter to societal norms, we even encourage it (e.g. getting women into engineering, men into gradeschool education). We even have tags for it: tomboy and girly. The point at which people who identify with the opposite gender's societal norms also begin to decide they must also be that sex, is what we don't fully understand.

ThenIThought said:
But most amputees don't identify themselves by their body. Convenience and medical issues aside, they're otherwise perfectly happy with who they are, I've never seen any such person feel sorry for themselves, and to the contrary, they're some of the most self-confident people.

Sorry, what?

I'm sorry to put it like this, but did you really just tell me that most people who have had a limb lopped off are perfectly happy, content people who just kind of mystically adapt to not having a leg or an arm over night and reach a new state of self confidence and self worth through the mystical loss of a limb?

What?

... Losing a limb is a traumatic experience. A lot of tv shows feature amputees who have over come their disabilities and are persuing their dreams, and trying to have a normal life because it's an inspiring story and makes good TV. Good TV doesn't reflect reality. Good TV would tell you that ever abused girlfriend finds a knight in shining armor, that every animal in the pound finds their forever home, that every story has a happy ending.

Even a quick google shows that a lot of amputees are not magically free of self doubt and burdens after losing a limb.

one source I found suggests that over 25% of Amputees suffer from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder symptoms, and 34% prevalence of depressive symptoms, especially in the case that the amputation was the result of some trauma rather then the result of a long term illness. I cna't even find a quite on suicide rates by several webpages suggest that they're rather alarmingly high.

I'm so happy that the amputees you, personally, know, are happy and well adjusted to being "differently abled" but you might want to have a talk with them in regard to how it took them to reach that stage, as well as the troubles they have day to day, because I seriously think you are under estimating what they've gone through, and potentially belittling their issues at that. I'm serious. this argument aside. You're under appreciating what strong people they are.

I'm not sure if you're making the point that the phantom limb phenomenon is literally the same, it might be figuratively similar, because it's a nervous system issue, not a personal identity issue.

I was not suggesting it was literally the same at all. Phantom limbs are a development that occurs after physical trama of some sort. However, the IDEA is one that a lot of people, day to day can understand. They've heard about it and read about it. EVERYONE can generally wrap their idea around the concept that not having an arm when you think you should have an arm would be strange. And that is... similar, not the same, similar to the idea of feeling you should have a penis when you do not.

I'd say gender is of culture. If people came from 100 years from the past they'd be wondering why half the guys, with their funny new blue pants, have swollen chests.

That IS true, but being transgendered is not about just getting to wear pants or a dress.
There are tomboy transgendered girls. there are Effeminate transgendered men. It doesn't matter. it's not JUST about how society treats you (though for some, yes, more so then others.) it's about you and your body. Do you think you would be 'okay' if your penis wasn't there? if you had boobs instead of a flat chest? if once a month blood poured out of your private areas, your belly cramped up terrible and you felt liek a horrible miserable mess.. . every month? Even setting aside, again, the social aspects, the fact that you're expected to be pretty, and subservant to men. How would you have felt, as you were a wee thing, and suddenly, as you started reaching that magic age of puberty, you, a BOY, started to grow breasts. They're heavy, they get in teh way, they hurt, they're stared at, while everyoen else ants theirs to be bigger or smaller ot whatever, you jsut want them to go away. because they don't belong on you.

There's nothing wrong with identified-males and identified-females having interests counter to societal norms, we even encourage it (e.g. getting women into engineering, men into gradeschool education). We even have tags for it: tomboy and girly. The point at which people who identify with the opposite gender's societal norms also begin to decide they must also be that sex, is what we don't fully understand.

AS I said... it isn't about society, though that plays into it. Of course it does. it's what we live in and deal with. but at it's base.. it's about bodies. Your body. and how it's not right. and that would be true even if men and women were treated identically by society. Some don't WANT surgery, that's true. It may be cost, it may be fear of surgery, it may be the simple fact that they would rather 'make do' with what they have' rather then risk paying thousands to get a body part that will not fuction properly (FtM surgery is especaily unrefined, compared to MtF) ... for the, perhaps more so, the perspective of society is more important... but ... it wouldn't ever even be an issue if it wans't for the fact that the body is Not Right To Begin With.

SnowWolf said:
Sorry, what?

Most of this may be true. I swept quite a large number of symptoms under the rug by saying "Convenience and medical issues aside." It's hard to tell: amputees usually become so because of things like war, which produces things like PTSD even without physical injury. So not only do we not have causality but we don't even know if there's a correlation.

I don't think I can say I'd care if I suddenly grew boobs overnight. It might even be cool. The bleeding probably not, but don't most women take issue with that as well? So I wouldn't be uniquely impacted. I'm not okay with Random Boner Syndrome either, but it's not causing unusual life problems and I'm not about to get surgery to fix it. (he he he.) I plainly don't identify myself by my body and I just don't see why anyone else does, so that sort of argument doesn't help me. Just be yourself, as you are, is all I care about. As if there's an argument; I'm perfectly fine with people deciding to live like they do or undergo surgery for it, I just don't understand it. I mean, I don't even understand ear piercings.

ThenIThought said:
Most of this may be true. I swept quite a large number of symptoms under the rug by saying "Convenience and medical issues aside." It's hard to tell: amputees usually become so because of things like war, which produces things like PTSD even without physical injury. So not only do we not have causality but we don't even know if there's a correlation.

.... you act like war is the only reason people get limbs amputated. While I had some trouble finding detailed information, I did find a page SPECIFICALLY talking about the Army Medical Center's Amputee Care Center. They (in 2007 anyway) had processed 701 amputees. Wikipedia, by the way, has a slightly outdated statistic here... but still relevant: Between 1988 and 1996, there were an average of 133,735 hospital discharges for amputation per year in the US.

There are a WHOLE LOT of reasons besides war, man. I almost had my arm amputated as a kid because I broke my arm THAT badly. I had a friend who's brother accidentally sawed off his own finger Car accidents, accidents with large machinery, not receiving immediate medical attention, frostbite, bone infections (I know a friend who very nearly lost his leg because of an infection that wouldn't quit after a motorcycle accident)... think about all the ways someone can get hurt. being 'in war' is ... very.. very much the rare case. and yet, they have those statistics, man. Yes. If you're in a war zone, you are WAY more likely to come away permanently scared then, say, a person with poorly controlled diabetes. But do you think the person who was walking down the road and was mowed down by a car, or the person who accidentally got part of their hand stuck in a meat grinder is somehow less traumatized because they weren't being shot at..?

I don't think I can say I'd care if I suddenly grew boobs overnight. It might even be cool.

I didn't say over night. I said (or implied i guess, sorry) that as you hit puberty, you started to grow them.

The bleeding probably not, but don't most women take issue with that as well? So I wouldn't be uniquely impacted. I'm not okay with Random Boner Syndrome either, but it's not causing unusual life problems and I'm not about to get surgery to fix it. (he he he.)

This is true. But you're not putting yoruself in the right frame of mind. as a little boy, entering into puberty.

....think of it this way. we're imprinted with the idea of what a girl is and what a boy is... and as little kids, there's not a whole lot of difference between girls and boys except interests. Men and women, yeah, those are different. men are big and strong, and girls have boobies and are pretty. BUt boys and girls are quite similar: small, flat chested, same general built, fun to play with, etc. the biggest difference is that girls tend to have an interest in girly activities and boys tend to have interest in boyish activities. but that's hardly a rule. *my* games as a little girl often involved being a wild animal talking through the savannah's of africa or making magic potions in my back yard. so imagine how you would feel, when, as a little kid, similar to other little kids, you suddenly came face to face with the fact that while you were a 'boy', you wouldn't be growing up into a 'man', you'd be growing up into a woman. Of course LOGICALLY we know it doens't worth that way, but when you're a kid there's not a whole lot of logic involved in these things. so you, a little kid, with the vague hope of growing up into a man, (even if not actually verbalized as that), and suddenly.... you start showing all the signs of growing into.. a woman. Not a man. A woman. WHich means... you should be interested in boys. and clothes. and bras. and... you don't known know. Because you've never really liked playing house or barbie (except that one game where barbie is a cool NINJA ASSASSIN!) but you like playing war or NINJA ASSASSIN and and getting dirty and playing in the mud, playing with toy trucks and trains and airplanes! ... It's not something that's easy to understand, but tha'ts the best way I can describe it and my sex and gender are both the same, so I know I"m still not fully understanding.

I plainly don't identify myself by my body and I just don't see why anyone else does, so that sort of argument doesn't help me.

but you DO and you ARE. maybe not as strongly as most people, but you are still identified by your body. Do you use masculine pronouns? then you are. Why do you say you are 'he' if not defined by them? Or maybe you've just never considered the possibilities. One of my best friend actually prefers to not be refered to as either gender, because neither feels correct. but doens't mind female pronouns because that is what they're used to. My other best friend is biologically female, but has strong male leanings and prefers 'he' generally, but has girly days, now and then and is alright with being called the mother of their child. another friend does not mind male pronouns but prefers female pronouns. NONE of these people define themselves by their body. They are defining their mind. ALL of them are in some form genderqueer. Or rather, they aren't male, they aren't female. they reject the idea that you can only be one or the other, in terms of personality. Would they want to change their bodies? I dunno honestly. One, I know, no. they're happy being both and neither.

Just be yourself, as you are, is all I care about. As if there's an argument; I'm perfectly fine with people deciding to live like they do or undergo surgery for it, I just don't understand it. I mean, I don't even understand ear piercings.

I agree with you. Everyone should be themselves. Even if that means they decide they're not 1 or a 0. or even it it means that he's a 1.5 or a .06 or .33 or a -- .. y'know? but as for not understanding it.. it's just... it's not cosmetic. It's about being happy. and for these people.. it's about trying to make their body match what their brain says it should be. ... another bad example, but not too disimilar from dieting. Or excercising to gain muscle. only.. .a lot more... integral to personal identification, as well as to the rest of the world.