I am now posting this topic due to the fact I've seen over my 4 years on e621 many cases where due to bad voting and or voting abuse, artists remove content and some have added themselves to the dnp list over it.

The image voting system is everything the thread title says.
Negative votes on an image can harm a new, fledgling artist. It can cause them to give up, or retreat from posting on anywhere where they don't have control over such things.
I've actually talked to about a dozen artists who actually stopped drawing what they like because of a bad score...and I'm not talking -1 or -5, no I mean -30 and lower on things I see absolutely no reason to have such a horrendously low score.
The system is open to abuse, I've seen perfectly good images with no questionable content vote nuked and no one can do anything about it because no one recognizes the attack unless it's like 20 something votes in a few minutes.

What does this system serve? Other than a point of pride or discomfort to the artist, commissioner, or Uploader?
Sure you can search by score...but that's a really narrow type of search. People who actually do that are likely to miss things with unnecessary low scores that they would normally look at.

The comment votes serve a defined role. Globally hiding comments, but even that can be abused though that is not what this thread is about. Image votes are pointless however.

What I propose:

Remove the vote system, people can always use favorite count in its place.

Or

Hide the vote count. Does it really need to be visable to everyone? Or can it be there but away from sensitive eyes?
(This option keeps the system but prevents the "all aboard the vote train" response many people have (aka clicking - just because it has a negative score) as well as keeping Uploaders, artists and commission holders from being discouraged by an unfairly bad score.)

I post this topic not for myself but for the people who I've talked to and related to over the years.

Give it some thought, don't dismiss it out of hand...and play nice, if the topic explodes I will ask the admin to lock it.

WoHow we're going to express our hate towards pictures then?

alirezatm said:
WoHow we're going to express our hate towards pictures then?

That's why I added the second option in the proposal.
The second option allows users to still vote...but keeps people from actually seeing the score other than the + button turning green or the - button turning red when clicked like it does now. It simply removes the total score from view, preventing problems.

aoru said:
Nobody needs or deserves to live in a hugbox.

I don't see it as an issue of "hugboxing" when the favorites system works just as well. If you don't like an image, you simply don't favorite it. Votes seem unnecessary. I have had my works go to a negative score simply for not being pornographic, for example, as well as people following my works on multiple accounts just to cheat the vote system further negative.

aoru said:
Nobody needs or deserves to live in a hugbox.

To be honest the thread is for the admin. The rest of our opinions I don't really care about. Pretty much because i always see douchbag like replies like yours, what you call a hugbox i call being considerate. Not everyone is mentally bomb proof. When I first started drawing and creating my artwork, simple clothed poses of characters... renamon, my own fursona, etc I'd get blasted by assholes who wanted and only care/think that people like Jay naylor and max blackrabit should be allowed to draw and post. It is incredibly discouraging and depressing....especially if the artwork is fairly decent. Well drawn/made, nothing to make most people go "eww" etc.
The vote count is useless other than as a point of pride or a target for haters.

Additionally: I mean no offense by the douche bag comment. It is simply that every time I bring this up I get replies like yours. No the world isn't perfect, but that doesn't mean we should rub people's noses in it.

Esme_Belles said:
Pretty much because i always see douchbag like replies like yours

Ah irony

People fav things all the time they don't necessarily like, as said in many similar threads before.

Hell, I use order:score all the time to organize stuff in at least a general good order.

If we are going full hugbox, just don't let pic votes go into negative. Then you won't bust a new artist's bubble I guess

Esme_Belles said:
To be honest the thread is for the admin. The rest of our opinions I don't really care about.

if our opinions don't matter, why worry about the vote system?

Esme_Belles said:
I am now posting this topic due to the fact I've seen over my 4 years on e621 many cases where due to bad voting and or voting abuse, artists remove content and some have added themselves to the dnp list over it.

The image voting system is everything the thread title says.
Negative votes on an image can harm a new, fledgling artist. It can cause them to give up, or retreat from posting on anywhere where they don't have control over such things.
I've actually talked to about a dozen artists who actually stopped drawing what they like because of a bad score...and I'm not talking -1 or -5, no I mean -30 and lower on things I see absolutely no reason to have such a horrendously low score.
The system is open to abuse, I've seen perfectly good images with no questionable content vote nuked and no one can do anything about it because no one recognizes the attack unless it's like 20 something votes in a few minutes.

What does this system serve? Other than a point of pride or discomfort to the artist, commissioner, or Uploader?
Sure you can search by score...but that's a really narrow type of search. People who actually do that are likely to miss things with unnecessary low scores that they would normally look at.

The comment votes serve a defined role. Globally hiding comments, but even that can be abused though that is not what this thread is about. Image votes are pointless however.

What I propose:

Remove the vote system, people can always use favorite count in its place.

Or

Hide the vote count. Does it really need to be visable to everyone? Or can it be there but away from sensitive eyes?
(This option keeps the system but prevents the "all aboard the vote train" response many people have (aka clicking - just because it has a negative score) as well as keeping Uploaders, artists and commission holders from being discouraged by an unfairly bad score.)

I post this topic not for myself but for the people who I've talked to and related to over the years.

Give it some thought, don't dismiss it out of hand...and play nice, if the topic explodes I will ask the admin to lock it.

quoting just in case

Knotty_Curls said:
if our opinions don't matter, why worry about the vote system?

I mean as in people who act as the person I quoted did. If your opinion is going to be "that's life" or something akin to that... I'm not going to listen since its unhelpful in this instance.

Also why are you quoting it? I'm not gonna suddenly erase or change it I made my point I'm sticking to it

Esme_Belles said:
It simply removes the total score from view, preventing problems.

that kinda defeats the point of the voting/rating system though, doesn't it? as you'll have no way of knowing how you're vote affects anything one way or the other.

treos said:
that kinda defeats the point of the voting/rating system though, doesn't it? as you'll have no way of knowing how you're vote affects anything one way or the other.

But if you vote depending on how the score already is...doesn't that also defeat the point of the system?

I should mention and while I don't have any proof of this but I'm pretty sure that a lot of people who downvote, only downvote... if they like it they favorite it. So it is sort of a one sided system. There are probably more downvoters than upvoters so posts that would normally be balanced in votes get lopsided due to people who do like it not voting and people who dislike it always voting.

Or we could pull off a Youtube and leave both the upvote and downvote button on but only the upvote actually works :V

TheHuskyK9 said:
Or we could pull off a Youtube and leave both the upvote and downvote button on but only the upvote actually works :V

Just kidding....maybe

Lol

Personally I like the voting system as it is, because it provides another metric by which you can evaluate the response to your artwork. And I like that.

I'm generally of the opinion that if someone stops drawing because of a negative score, that the problem is on their end. I don't think someone who looks at a negative score and thinks "well, that's the end of it, I give up" is really invested in improving. And if someone is not trying to improve, I don't see why I should care when they give up. I'm not trying to be rude here, for the record, I just... I think art is a skill, and like any skill you have to recognize that you have to develop your abilities to get anywhere. If you don't recognize that, I doubt you will get anywhere.

So the negative that is being proposed here I don't really see as a negative. While I do see positives to the voting system. So I disagree with removing it.

Clawdragons said:
Personally I like the voting system as it is, because it provides another metric by which you can evaluate the response to your artwork. And I like that.

I'm generally of the opinion that if someone stops drawing because of a negative score, that the problem is on their end. I don't think someone who looks at a negative score and thinks "well, that's the end of it, I give up" is really invested in improving. And if someone is not trying to improve, I don't see why I should care when they give up. I'm not trying to be rude here, for the record, I just... I think art is a skill, and like any skill you have to recognize that you have to develop your abilities to get anywhere. If you don't recognize that, I doubt you will get anywhere.

So the negative that is being proposed here I don't really see as a negative. While I do see positives to the voting system. So I disagree with removing it.

And what about fledgling artists who have a fair amount of skill...but still get huge amounts of flak even when it's a normal picture like say a portrait or something 99 out of 100 would say is clean and not offensive. Basically unfair hatred...
What would you do if you had the power to change it?

Far from what some may think of my forum threads, I don't mind alternative ideas... just as long as they are fair and well thought out.

Knotty_Curls said:
if our opinions don't matter, why worry about the vote system?

Why? Because some people want to be smart asses and down-vote pictures solely based on the fact that "they can". They don't use the blacklist, they only hate the picture for the sake of hating it.

What about people who do their darnedest and still get huge negative scores? What about aspiring 3D artists who think are doing well but end up getting flak for posting it on here? And what about those who abuse the voting system and down-vote using alternate accounts to circumvent the voting system (it happens)? I've seen a lot of good art that still gets a lot of negative votes for no reason at all.

Why aren't these concerns ever taken seriously from the staff? The voting system is so easily abused, it's frightening in a way, you know? If there are topics or fetishes people don't want to see, the blacklist is there for that reason; however, people don't use it as effectively as they should, or not at all and go to art they hate so they have a reason to down-vote, and it's really annoying when it's abused that way. It's a problem that needs addressing, and yet, no matter what is proposed, the staff doesn't take our concerns or proposals seriously. That's the impression I get.

Esme_Belles said:
I should mention and while I don't have any proof of this but I'm pretty sure that a lot of people who downvote, only downvote... if they like it they favorite it. So it is sort of a one sided system. There are probably more downvoters than upvoters so posts that would normally be balanced in votes get lopsided due to people who do like it not voting and people who dislike it always voting.

This, a thousand times this, people only hate for the sake of hating, give no reason why, only because it makes them feel big, hidden behind the veil of anonymity. People say, "don't worry about downvotes" which I think is somewhat flawed, and here's why; what if you and other people know your submission is good, but gets voted down so low...how is a low score not supposed to be a bad thing? That's how I feel about it anyway. Too bad vote circumventing can't be controlled.

I'm trying to figure out how negative votes are even remotely useful, especially when people simply do it because they can.

Edit: Oh and look at that, my submission hasn't been approved after two days. They should just delete the damn thing since it's already at -14 points. What joy.

I use order:score often for my searches, especially when searching by the artist. Makes it easy to find their best works.

Order:favcount is too tied to the popularity of the characters or fetishes, whereas order:score is better for sorting by the actual quality. I'm aware that it's not completely accurate: older posts have more votes. But it's better than nothing.

Okay, in all this time since voting has been implemented, there have been maaaaaybe three cases of actionable voting abuse involving alts. They were quickly discovered and corrected. There have been no mention of negative voting on takedowns (that I can think of) with possibly the exception of the extremely shitty rough sketches by new artists that occasionally pop up. These are not problems. The only time voting will have a negative impact on a submission is if the post is objectively terrible or a very fringe kink, and when that's the case, the artist has bigger problems than a few downvotes. And in the case of the weird kinks, most artists know to expect negative feedback.

My only problem with voting is not enough people use it. Only about 25% of people who favorite actually take the time to vote which hurts image visibility for people who search by score. Yeah they can go through favcount if they want to wade through a bunch of animations. I'd be interested in seeing the vote buttons moved below the submission like on imgur.

Genjar said:
I use order:score often for my searches, especially when searching by the artist. Makes it easy to find their best works.

Order:favcount is too tied to the popularity of the characters or fetishes, whereas order:score is better for sorting by the actual quality. I'm aware that it's not completely accurate: older posts have more votes. But it's better than nothing.

Funny, I've always found the exact opposite: that favcount was a reasonable measure of quality, whereas score was a reasonable measure of memeness.

On a different topic, what about hiding vote count for a user until that user votes on that image, much like polls do? That should reduce social bias somewhat.

fox_whisper85 said:
What about people who do their darnedest and still get huge negative scores? What about aspiring 3D artists who think are doing well but end up getting flak for posting it on here? And what about those who abuse the voting system and down-vote using alternate accounts to circumvent the voting system (it happens)? I've seen a lot of good art that still gets a lot of negative votes for no reason at all.

Why aren't these concerns ever taken seriously from the staff?

We serve, at the moment of writing this, 693226 images, less than 600 images were ever affected by vote abuse. That is less than 0.1%; negligible in every definition of the word.

fox_whisper85 said:
Edit: Oh and look at that, my submission hasn't been approved after two days. They should just delete the damn thing since it's already at -14 points. What joy.

This is what happens when people demand that we get a second opinion before something is deleted.
Literally nothing happens.

Esme_Belles said:
And what about fledgling artists who have a fair amount of skill...but still get huge amounts of flak even when it's a normal picture like say a portrait or something 99 out of 100 would say is clean and not offensive. Basically unfair hatred...
What would you do if you had the power to change it?

Far from what some may think of my forum threads, I don't mind alternative ideas... just as long as they are fair and well thought out.

Clean and not offensive is not the same thing as "of good quality", first off.

As to your question, I would have to see what sorts of images you are referring to. I am not really aware of any high quality images that are accumulating a significant negative score.

I see nothing wrong with votes, they are just numbers, plus you don't have to look at them.
However here is a script to remove them if you wish for them to be gone:

// ==UserScript==
// @name         e621 hugbox script
// @namespace    http://e621.net
// @version      0.1
// @description  k
// @author       hi
// @match        *://*.e621.net/*
// @grant        none
// @run-at       document-start
// ==/UserScript==

//#include "http://userscripts.softhyena.com/lib/style_injector.js"
/*LICENSE:
    No license found
*/
var StyleInjector=function(){var c=this;this.styleelm=document.createElement("style");this.id="styleInjector"+Math.round(4294967295*Math.random());this.styleelm.setAttribute("id",this.id);this.stylesheet=null;document.head.appendChild(this.styleelm);for(var b=0;b<document.styleSheets.length;b++)if(document.styleSheets[b].ownerNode.getAttribute("id")==this.id){this.stylesheet=document.styleSheets[b];break}this.insertRule=function(a,d,e){
a+="{";for(var f=0,b=Object.keys(d);f<b.length;f++)a=a+b[f].replace(/(\{)|(\})|(\;)/g,"")+":"+d[b[f]].replace(/(\{)|(\})|(\;)/g,"")+";";"undefined"==typeof e&&(e=c.stylesheet.cssRules.length);c.stylesheet.insertRule(a+"}",e);return e};this.insertRuleRaw=function(a,d){"undefined"==typeof d&&(d=c.stylesheet.cssRules.length);c.stylesheet.insertRule(a,d);return d};this.addRule=function(a,d){a+="{";for(var e=0,b=
Object.keys(d);e<b.length;e++)a=a+b[e].replace(/(\{)|(\})|(\;)/g,"")+":"+d[b[e]].replace(/(\{)|(\})|(\;)/g,"")+";";c.stylesheet.insertRule(a+"}",c.stylesheet.cssRules.length);return c.stylesheet.cssRules.length-1};this.addRuleRaw=function(a,b){c.stylesheet.insertRule(a,c.stylesheet.cssRules.length);return c.stylesheet.cssRules.length-1};this.deleteRule=function(a){c.stylesheet.deleteRule(a);return c.stylesheet.cssRules.length};};

//Main
document.addEventListener("DOMContentLoaded", function(){
    var style=new StyleInjector();
    style.addRule("span[id~=post-score-score]",{"display":"none"});
    var hugbox = document.getElementById("stats");
    if(hugbox!==null){
        for(var i=0,x=document.getElementById("stats").children[1];i<x.children.length;i++){
            if(~x.children[i].innerText.indexOf("Score:"))
                x.removeChild(x.children[i]);
        }
    }
});

--EDIT--
yo something is wrong with the \

\

block, it counts \n as \n\n.

Esme_Belles said:
But if you vote depending on how the score already is...doesn't that also defeat the point of the system?

Doesn't the system itself defeat the point of the system?

Don't mind me, I'm just shitposting again. It's what I do.

ShylokVakarian said:
Doesn't the system itself defeat the point of the system?

Don't mind me, I'm just shitposting again. It's what I do.

...please don't divide by zero...I don't think the universe can take it.

Esme_Belles said:
...please don't divide by zero...I don't think the universe can take it.

Dividing by zero is certainly a surefire way to break not one internet, but several internets.

Some people will downvote just because they get off on doing that. And while some images clearly deserve it (do I even have to bring up the infamous cheese_grater image?), others are just at the mercy of sheep following to a -1.

GameManiac said:
Some people will downvote just because they get off on doing that.

(clicks downvote seductively?)

Waba_Grill said:
(clicks downvote seductively?)

"This post would look a lot sexier in red~"

Genjar said:
I use order:score often for my searches, especially when searching by the artist. Makes it easy to find their best works.

Order:favcount is too tied to the popularity of the characters or fetishes, whereas order:score is better for sorting by the actual quality. I'm aware that it's not completely accurate: older posts have more votes. But it's better than nothing.

This, all of this. Thank you

Chaser said:
--EDIT--
yo something is wrong with the \

\

block, it counts \n as \n\n.

A fix for that is already ready and should be part of the next update.

parasprite said:
A fix for that is already ready and should be part of the next update.

Huh, will the view counter be fixed at some point in the near future as well? :D

I think the system is fine the way it is and I really don't want it change... people should be able to show if they like the pic or not I don't vote a lot but when I see something cool I upvote I only downvote something I really really dislike
also it kind of help keep these kind people away post #640080
plz don't change :(

GameManiac said:
(do I even have to bring up the infamous cheese_grater

am I the only one who liked a little about the pic? I mean the quality is quite good but not so much as the theme

I see no significant reasons why the voting system on e6 should be removed, the only problem here is voting abuse.

Honestly I believe the people who make alt accounts just to downvote images are just sad. The voting system works really well, it's just those people who ruin it for everyone.

tfkcex said:
am I the only one who liked a little about the pic? I mean the quality is quite good but not so much as the theme

The quality is good I believe as well. I think people should downvote images based on quality, not content. For example if you don't enjoy herms, then you shouldn't go around downvoting herm pictures just because they are herm pictures, you should downvote based on the quality of the artwork.

Thats wot I think.

SirBrownBear said:
"This post would look a lot sexier in red~"

Take ALL my internets

Don't mind me, I'm just shitposting again.

I really don't like the trend on many popular websites of hiding negative votes or removing negative voting options all together. That, in addition to mob mentality and popular opinion, just further degrades the trustworthiness and therefore value of like/dislike voting systems. In the instance of hiding negative votes, a voteable item with 300/800 positive votes shouldn't be presented as higher rated or more favorable than a similar item with 200/220 positive votes because that's very misleading. Likewise, a voting system that only offers a positive voting option would effectively deny equal expression to those 500/800 would-be negative voters, which is even more misleading and unfair. Generally, I prefer the solution that makes available the greatest amount of data to viewers so that I can make more accurate (pre-)judgements.

As for artists getting mentally crushed by negative votes, they should have known what they were getting into from the beginning and developed realistic expectations accordingly. E621 is an art repository, not a classroom; and by extension, so is the Internet.

To that end, processing criticism in a classroom helps aspiring artists develop some of the mental toughness they will need to effectively process professional criticism and public opinion in the workforce. If an artist can't handle public criticism well, then I doubt they'd flourish or succeed much in the workforce. After all, what is art made for? Hobby artists who forgo traditional education, as are seemingly common in the furryverse, have already chosen to learn and experience their craft the hard way. They made their choice and must learn how to process the consequences as a matter of course. In the end, it all comes back to developing realistic expectations one way or the other.

Based on what Ippiki and NMNY said, targeted voting abuse appears to be a non-issue, so I imagine it's just a rationalization for criticism and the inherent flaws of a like/dislike voting system. Honestly, it seems a lot like victim mentality.

fox_whisper85 said:
Huh, will the view counter be fixed at some point in the near future as well? :D

I know less about that as I don't handle much of the database, but I'll ask and see if I can get an update on their progress.

abadbird said:
I really don't like the trend on many popular websites of hiding negative votes or removing negative voting options all together. That, in addition to mob mentality and popular opinion, just further degrades the trustworthiness and therefore value of like/dislike voting systems. In the instance of hiding negative votes, a voteable item with 300/800 positive votes shouldn't be presented as higher rated or more favorable than a similar item with 200/220 positive votes because that's very misleading. Likewise, a voting system that only offers a positive voting option would effectively deny equal expression to those 500/800 would-be negative voters, which is even more misleading and unfair. Generally, I prefer the solution that makes available the greatest amount of data to viewers so that I can make more accurate (pre-)judgements.

As for artists getting mentally crushed by negative votes, they should have known what they were getting into from the beginning and developed realistic expectations accordingly. E621 is an art repository, not a classroom; and by extension, so is the Internet.

To that end, processing criticism in a classroom helps aspiring artists develop some of the mental toughness they will need to effectively process professional criticism and public opinion in the workforce. If an artist can't handle public criticism well, then I doubt they'd flourish or succeed much in the workforce. After all, what is art made for? Hobby artists who forgo traditional education, as are seemingly common in the furryverse, have already chosen to learn and experience their craft the hard way. They made their choice and must learn how to process the consequences as a matter of course. In the end, it all comes back to developing realistic expectations one way or the other.

Based on what Ippiki and NMNY said, targeted voting abuse appears to be a non-issue, so I imagine it's just a rationalization for criticism and the inherent flaws of a like/dislike voting system. Honestly, it seems a lot like victim mentality.

Except, most of the time the comments are either nonexistent, scathing or not helpful at all (destructive criticism); I've seen some scathing remarks that aren't helpful at all. I rarely ever see constructive criticism, so the negative votes don't really do much in that regard in my opinion. If people would say something like "I don't like this picture, next time do such and such," instead of the usual,"What the hell is this?" or "This is garbage." That is primarily what I see...sure, there are helpful comments from people, don't get me wrong, but they are only a very tiny fraction of what should be seen.

Yes, criticism is to be expected on an art repository as large as this one, there's no denying that. But there is a very fine line between destructive and constructive criticism, the former of which is far too commonplace. I would love to see how common helpful feedback is compared to any unsubstantiated and scathing remarks to anyone who makes art of fetishes that people hate and refuse to blacklist. What if you make art, and you know it's good, but still gets hateful comments and nothing helpful at all? Sometimes, it's hard to ignore condescending remarks from self-proclaimed critics and experts who think they know better but have no proof they can.

Sorry for the wall of text, but that's my take on the issue. TL:DR - helpful comments are helpful, most comments posted on art here are neither helpful or productive and are often condescending in my opinion. I'm being brutally honest from observation only.

People say to not worry about the down-votes as much as how many favorites the art has, be that as it may, what's a better way to look at a score?

Guys, can't we just make pic score start with, like 1000 instead of 0? order:score and other things still works, but having score 990 sounds better than having score -10.

Anyway I'm also against removing voting system. order:Score, score:15.., and similar searches are very useful for me. Image votes are not pointless.
I also would really like to see some weighted score (weighted by how taste of people who like/dislike pics is similar to yours). If there was a weighted score I could live without real score visible, though I know it's unlikely to happen in the near future.

Granberia said:
Guys, can't we just make pic score start with, like 1000 instead of 0? order:score and other things still works, but having score 990 sounds better than having score -10.

Anyway I'm also against removing voting system. order:Score, score:15.., and similar searches are very useful for me. Image votes are not pointless.
I also would really like to see some weighted score (weighted by how taste of people who like/dislike pics is similar to yours). If there was a weighted score I could live without real score visible, though I know it's unlikely to happen in the near future.

So how are negative scores useful for those that upload and make art, when people don't know what's wrong with the very things they upload? Others can see flaws, but don't elaborate, and if they don't, how do they know what they're supposed to be rectifying? See the problem? Negative scores help people that browse, not upload or create.

Downvotes = helps people who look, not who make art. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

fox_whisper85 said:
So how are negative scores useful for those that upload and make art, when people don't know what's wrong with the very things they upload? Others can see flaws, but don't elaborate, and if they don't, how do they know what they're supposed to be rectifying? See the problem? Negative scores help people that browse, not upload or create.

Downvotes = helps people who look, not who make art. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

This! You hit the nail on the head! Showing users what other users like is the WHOLE POINT of such metrics. This site is not an art gallery, which means that this probably isn't the most suited place to use if anyone want to showcase their art and get feedback. That said it can be a great place to gather followers/raise awareness.

Also score/favs are mostly used as secondary search attributes, which means that people who like ones art will probably still find it since they most likely primarily search using tags and not metatags, also a post with a score of -10 can actually attract more people than a score with 0 or +1 or similar, people aren't attracted to the mediocre (though this might be a long shot attempt to justify negative scores).

Personally I'mma be sad if you give less options for rating, if you ask me there should be more, like graphs with time and trends and demographics and whatnot, but is probably far far outside the scope of e6. I like both the score and fav system when searching within tags (as well as the currently disabled views), however I don't just look at the first page just 'cause I happened to order the posts in some way. I guess simply hiding the actual numbers could be a fair compromise, which might decrease some bias.

If something gets downvotes, no matter if part of those are from stalkers, there is most likely something in the post that is below the general public's standard. Might be a theme, quality, style or in the case of 3d animations it might be simple cases of stock models, unnatural movements or simply clipping. Also most things with humans will be treated more harshly simply because of that a majority of the audience doesn't want that when browsing e621. In addition users of e621 usually does not kiss anyone's ass unless it's well deserved.

Granberia said:
Guys, can't we just make pic score start with, like 1000 instead of 0? order:score and other things still works, but having score 990 sounds better than having score -10.

I guess I could live with that, though I'd probably subtract 1000 from it with a script; a scale centered around 0 is much easier to interpret :P

fox_whisper85 said:
So how are negative scores useful for those that upload and make art, when people don't know what's wrong with the very things they upload? Others can see flaws, but don't elaborate, and if they don't, how do they know what they're supposed to be rectifying? See the problem? Negative scores help people that browse, not upload or create.

Downvotes = helps people who look, not who make art. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

Majority of the people who use this site are people that browse art. Main target of the site is people who browse art. No, there's no problem that feature for main target of the site is not helping minority. Want to see artist's centered site - there's a lot of them: FA, IB, DA, etc. This site is centered around people who browse art. Artists are treated almost the same way as the viewer, with one exception. They can always remove their art if they don't agree to this.

Chessax said:
This! You hit the nail on the head! Showing users what other users like is the WHOLE POINT of such metrics. This site is not an art gallery, which means that this probably isn't the most suited place to use if anyone want to showcase their art and get feedback. That said it can be a great place to gather followers/raise awareness.

Also score/favs are mostly used as secondary search attributes, which means that people who like ones art will probably still find it since they most likely primarily search using tags and not metatags, also a post with a score of -10 can actually attract more people than a score with 0 or +1 or similar, people aren't attracted to the mediocre (though this might be a long shot attempt to justify negative scores).

Personally I'mma be sad if you give less options for rating, if you ask me there should be more, like graphs with time and trends and demographics and whatnot, but is probably far far outside the scope of e6. I like both the score and fav system when searching within tags (as well as the currently disabled views), however I don't just look at the first page just 'cause I happened to order the posts in some way. I guess simply hiding the actual numbers could be a fair compromise, which might decrease some bias.

If something gets downvotes, no matter if part of those are from stalkers, there is most likely something in the post that is below the general public's standard. Might be a theme, quality, style or in the case of 3d animations it might be simple cases of stock models, unnatural movements or simply clipping. Also most things with humans will be treated more harshly simply because of that a majority of the audience doesn't want that when browsing e621. In addition users of e621 usually does not kiss anyone's ass unless it's well deserved.

I guess I could live with that, though I'd probably subtract 1000 from it with a script; a scale centered around 0 is much easier to interpret :P

Oh so in other words, it's a vain effort for wanting to improve and wanting to do better? I know that no single artist can please everyone, I'm aware, but what if 3D is an artist's only viable means of conveying their ideas? Well, given your post's context, they're as good as screwed and should just give up. That's the impression I'm getting here.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. No matter how hard I try to do better with DAZ, XPS, Poser, etc, it's never good enough it seems.

Granberia said:
Majority of the people who use this site are people that browse art. Main target of the site is people who browse art. No, there's no problem that feature for main target of the site is not helping minority. Want to see artist's centered site - there's a lot of them: FA, IB, DA, etc. This site is centered around people who browse art. Artists are treated almost the same way as the viewer, with one exception. They can always remove their art if they don't agree to this.

Is that supposed to make me feel better? That doesn't exactly make me feel much better.

Subtracting voted images from search is more useful than subtracting favorited images since I vote on more images than I favorite.

https://e621.net/help/cheatsheet

fav:bob
favoritedby:bob
Search for posts favorited by the user Bob.

voted:bob
Search for posts that Bob voted (either up or down) on.

"useless" in the thread title is incorrect.

Lance_Armstrong said:
Subtracting voted images from search is more useful than subtracting favorited images since I vote on more images than I favorite.

https://e621.net/help/cheatsheet

"useless" in the thread title is incorrect.

Clearly, the part where it implicated that downvotes are useless for the uploader wasn't evident. This isn't about people who browse, this is about those who upload and make art. Downvoting is utterly useless to them. How in the name of all that is sacred would downvotes be, in any way, advantageous to those who UPLOAD? It's not, and I would love to see someone try to refute that argument.

Had you actually read the OP where it clearly states, "Negative votes on an image can harm a new, fledgling artist. It can cause them to give up, or retreat from posting on anywhere where they don't have control over such things. ", you would have known the adjective was referring to the artists, not people who browse.

Read it next time.

Negative votes affect the people that upload or make art, how is that not clear?

*Facepalm*

What about the artists? What about the people that upload art? How is downvoting fair to them? Clearly, they're less important /s If all they get are downvotes, why should they waste their time uploading on here if all they'll be getting is crapped on? Downvotes benefit no one by the viewers.

fox_whisper85 said:
Had you actually read the OP where it clearly states, "Negative votes on an image can harm a new, fledgling artist. It can cause them to give up, or retreat from posting on anywhere where they don't have control over such things. ", you would have known the adjective was referring to the artists, not people who browse.

Read it next time.

Negative votes affect the people that upload or make art, how is that not clear?

It's not clear that this is a problem worth removing a feature for, according to admins in the thread. There is an assertion that this is a problem, but little evidence.

fox_whisper85 said:
Downvotes benefit no one but the viewers.

They can be a benefit to the artists and uploaders if they wish to compare artwork and see what gets a better response. It is not true that "downvotes benefit no one but the viewers". Uploaders in this thread that support keeping scores have over 16,000 combined uploads and should not simply be ignored.

If the feature benefits the viewers, it should not be removed, regardless if it upsets a percent or two of artists.

Artists get more upset over comments. Insulting the artist is already a bannable offense.

Want to change the system? I'll support A SETTING that puts a spoiler tag around the score so you have to hover to see it, or a user setting to force the entire list item "Score: 0 (vote up/down)" not to render. Either one disabled by default.

Lance_Armstrong said:
It's not clear that this is a problem worth removing a feature for, according to admins in the thread. There is an assertion that this is a problem, but little evidence.

They can be a benefit to the artists and uploaders if they wish to compare artwork and see what gets a better response. It is not true that "downvotes benefit no one but the viewers".

If the feature benefits the viewers, it should not be removed, regardless if it upsets a percent or two of artists.

Artists get more upset over comments. Insulting the artist is already a bannable offense.

Want to change the system? I'll support A SETTING that puts a spoiler tag around the score so you have to hover to see it, or a user setting to force the entire list item "Score: 0 (vote up/down)" not to render. Either one disabled by default.

Many of which said comments are unwarranted and condescending, to me, that's a problem (IMHO). Not only that, but said remarks don't benefit anyone, and only serve to hurt the artist(s) in question. At least, that's how I see it, and yes, that's a valid point, seeing the scores is a good way to gauge on what works and what doesn't. But the snide or smarmy comments don't really help; just because people can make them, doesn't mean they should.

If there's a fetish people hate, they should blacklist it, and I've already added my share to blacklist.

fox_whisper85 said:
Many of which said comments are unwarranted and condescending, to me, that's a problem (IMHO). Not only that, but said remarks don't benefit anyone, and only serve to hurt the artist(s) in question. At least, that's how I see it, and yes, that's a valid point, seeing the scores is a good way to gauge on what works and what doesn't. But the snide or smarmy comments don't really help; just because people can make them, doesn't mean they should.

If there's a fetish people hate, they should blacklist it, and I've already added my share to blacklist.

Now we're on the same page.

1. Harassment of artists (not art criticism): bannable offense.
2. Repeated comments whining about a fetish and not using the blacklist: bannable offense.

All you have to do is hit the report button, and many have.

Lance_Armstrong said:
Now we're on the same page.

1. Harassment of artists (not art criticism): bannable offense.
2. Repeated comments whining about a fetish and not using the blacklist: bannable offense.

All you have to do is hit the report button, and many have.

I can only hope that people don't resort to revenge down-voting after their condescending posts have been reported, because I have a sickening feeling that it has been done. That being said...I can't help but feel a bit of fifth wheel syndrome when trying to showcase art, and seeing the much better-looking SFM art other artist have. I doubt it's true about being a fifth wheel, but it's how I feel, it sucks.

I probably need to work on my attitude...no, I definitely need to work on being more positive.

fox_whisper85 said:
I can only hope that people don't resort to revenge down-voting after their condescending posts have been reported, because I have a sickening feeling that it has been done.

Most "good" art will reach a score of +1-15, regardless of a couple of downvotes.

I am not sure if mass down-voting every image is against the rules, but using alts to downvote is. If it gets detected, the downvotes can be cancelled.

Lance_Armstrong said:
Most "good" art will reach a score of +1-15, regardless of a couple of downvotes.

I am not sure if mass down-voting every image is against the rules, but using alts to downvote is. If it gets detected, the downvotes can be cancelled.

Fair enough, but I still can't help but feel like a fifth wheel, esp. compared to hose who can use SFM very well.

fox_whisper85 said:
Fair enough, but I still can't help but feel like a fifth wheel, esp. compared to hose who can use SFM very well.

If SFM is the constant center of this, or rather "your" issue, then why not try a different means of creating content? :/

fox_whisper85 said:
I can only hope that people don't resort to revenge down-voting after their condescending posts have been reported, because I have a sickening feeling that it has been done.

That's harassment and thus a bannable offense as well.

you know, if I poured my heart and soul into my work I would want people to tell me how to improve and what mistakes I've made. Just as much as I would want people to praise my efforts

I don't think I'd be so self centered and delusional to say that the hivemind is WRONG and that my defecation was EXCELLENT and they're all FOOLS to downvote my masterpiece

take your criticism and learn from it

and if you take it so personally that it stops you from drawing then you really shouldn't have uploaded anything to the internet in the first place

Dragonlayer said:
you know, if I poured my heart and soul into my work I would want people to tell me how to improve and what mistakes I've made. Just as much as I would want people to praise my efforts

I don't think I'd be so self centered and delusional to say that the hivemind is WRONG and that my defecation was EXCELLENT and they're all FOOLS to downvote my masterpiece

take your criticism and learn from it

and if you take it so personally that it stops you from drawing then you really shouldn't have uploaded anything to the internet in the first place

It's not really the criticism that is the problem here. Yes you will get people who do nothing but bash things, curt sibling is a good example.
But clicking negative vote on an image but not doing anything to explain why is a problem.

I used myself as an example...mostly to spare Fox any more targeting. It took a lot, but it did damage my self esteem the first 5 times I tried to upload my artwork, this was maybe 8-9 years ago. Not here mind you but I remember the site I used which is gone now has a very similar system. Even now my paintings when uploaded here get several negatives within half an hour. Then sometimes goes back into the green. (In my case I have enemies who hate me so the votes are a passive aggressive way to attack me)
But I made this forum thread specifically because the system needs to either be improved or removed.
While true the amount of people giving up or removing art due to score is small. There are even more who don't even bother for fear of getting said score.

I gave two options to start with:

🚩 remove as it's pointless
🚩 Hide the total but keep the system which allows it to stay but keeps the fact it went redline a secret unless you actually search for it using the tagging system.

The only thing I've noticed is people going after the "remove" option. I haven't seen much comments on the secondary option. Nor have I seen any third options other than the YouTube joke and the only see score after voting which still brings up the fact you can see the unfairly negative score.

SirBrownBear said:
If SFM is the constant center of this, or rather "your" issue, then why not try a different means of creating content? :/

Because I have neither the time no patience, nor the motivation. There is a crap load of SFM models here not original that get a lot of praise, proving it's more of a matter of HOW they are used rather than WHAT models are used. Take for instance, there are a lot of MLP models by people like Generalthunderbad, Blackjack, leeter, etc that all use freely available models and credit their sources, which is what I've been doing.

If they can use SFM, and get very positive responses, I sure as hell have every right to get better and get positive responses. It's not the models they use, it's how. I know this because many of my submissions I posted on here have been received pretty well, it's just I've made a mistake with the past couple and need to find out what I did wrong.

fox_whisper85 said:
If they can use SFM, and get very positive responses, I sure as hell have every right to get better and get positive responses. It's not the models they use, it's how.

Getting positive feedback isn't exactly something you have the "right" for, but I dirges, you've made your point. Although about the model bit, that's not always the case. Sometimes a model can just dip too far into the uncanny valley to where they're just unlikeable all around. Slapping various heads on a wildly proportionate human bodies doesn't always work for every character. Not to rag on you, but the toy bonnie's kind of a good example.

But clicking negative vote on an image but not doing anything to explain why is a problem

so a red number is pissing you off?

SirBrownBear said:
Getting positive feedback isn't exactly something you have the "right" for, but I dirges, you've made your point. Although about the model bit, that's not always the case. Sometimes a model can just dip too far into the uncanny valley to where they're just unlikeable all around. Slapping various heads on a wildly proportionate human bodies doesn't always work for every character. Not to rag on you, but the toy bonnie's kind of a good example.

Well, it was a request, and I didn't make the models like I said before. It was a request on another site, but I simply posted it on here. What models, if any would you consider NOT to be in uncanny valley? If something bothers people, they should use the blacklist, it REALLY isn't hard to use, I'll even make a video on hot to use it if I must, just to educate people.

But again, the point still stands, I've seen a lot of these "uncanny valley" models and pics/animations do well, telling me it's not out of the realm of possibility. If people don't like what I post, big whoop, that's their choice, I just expect some civility when people decide to comment on the pics and not be a jerk about it. Not referring to anyone specifically, but in general; condescending comments people think are "cool" or "fun" to post don't help motivate me to do better.

fox_whisper85 said:
Well, it was a request, and I didn't make the models like I said before. It was a request on another site, but I simply posted it on here. What models, if any would you consider NOT to be in uncanny valley? If something bothers people, they should use the blacklist, it REALLY isn't hard to use, I'll even make a video on hot to use it if I must, just to educate people.

But again, the point still stands, I've seen a lot of these "uncanny valley" models and pics/animations do well, telling me it's not out of the realm of possibility. If people don't like what I post, big whoop, that's their choice, I just expect some civility when people decide to comment on the pics and not be a jerk about it. Not referring to anyone specifically, but in general; condescending comments people think are "cool" or "fun" to post don't help motivate me to do better.

(I feel like this is getting wildly off topic, but it's not exactly a hostile conversation, so~)

You can't really expect everyone to blacklist it when said tags might pertain to something else they do like. For that you just gotta play your cards right and roll with the punches.

There's also the matter of said people already having a fanbase. For the most part, anywhere you go, everything's determined by your popularity, and not quite so much the quality of your work (It's still important, yes, but that alone doesn't guarantee popularity.) There are plenty of artists out there who, objectively speaking, draw rather badly, but still manage to amass a large following, how? Mostly time and luck finding the right people who still like that kind of stuff. Just because you do the same thing as another doesn't mean people will like you're rendition just as much, even if they're the same quality wise.

Dragonlayer said:
so a red number is pissing you off?

6.o; nothing is pissing me off. I just think it's silly and I know other people who think the same or where discouraged by it to the point of defeatism.
Clicking the downvote but not providing why you either dislike it or how it should be improved is what I mean..

Perhaps this is a solid compromise?

A reason box that pops up when you click downvote, this would not be visible unless you look at a page similar to flags, tags and descriptions. It gives the people who look at the page more information that is sorely lacking on posts that get unfair stomping. However it would need a report button as well to keep trolls or spammers from just going "hdjgdhfdm" and hitting enter.

Why am I the only one looking for idea's? Are you guys really so cemented in the vote system that change is that bad???

Esme_Belles said:
Perhaps this is a solid compromise?

A reason box that pops up when you click downvote, this would not be visible unless you look at a page similar to flags, tags and descriptions. It gives the people who look at the page more information that is sorely lacking on posts that get unfair stomping. However it would need a report button as well to keep trolls or spammers from just going "hdjgdhfdm" and hitting enter.

Why am I the only one looking for idea's? Are you guys really so cemented in the vote system that change is that bad???

What? No, not at all, the more ideas we have, the better. I just don't know if those who maintain the site want to change it, but surely, there's a better system that can be used.

A reason box

Aka the comment section

Dragonlayer said:
Aka the comment section

Which unfortunately, people rarely explain what the problems are or how the artist(s) should correct them.

fox_whisper85 said:
Which unfortunately, people rarely explain what the problems are or how the artist(s) should correct them.

Because the shocking truth is that 99% of the viewers have their hand in their pants at the time

The only way a reason box would work is if it would be forced (otherwise you'd just make a comment) and that would make it no better than a captcha.

Dragonlayer said:
Because the shocking truth is that 99% of the viewers have their hand in their pants at the time

The only way a reason box would work is if it would be forced (otherwise you'd just make a comment) and that would make it no better than a captcha.

Thats why they invented handerpants. Handerpants allows people to keep their hands in their pants, and still be able to type.

Esme_Belles said:
Perhaps this is a solid compromise?

A reason box that pops up when you click downvote, this would not be visible unless you look at a page similar to flags, tags and descriptions. It gives the people who look at the page more information that is sorely lacking on posts that get unfair stomping. However it would need a report button as well to keep trolls or spammers from just going "hdjgdhfdm" and hitting enter.

Why am I the only one looking for idea's? Are you guys really so cemented in the vote system that change is that bad???

If there's anything I've learned about internet voting/ratings, it's that the complexity of the "vote button" is inversely proportional to the number of people that will actually use it.

Also, as a general rule, anything that involves "adding more work for the mods to do" is probably not going to be implemented unless the benefits outweigh the extra work needed. (I don't mean just on here either :P)

I'm just shitposting again.

Hey, I can't help it, I'm a member of [s4s].

ShylokVakarian said:
I'm just shitposting again.

Hey, I can't help it, I'm a member of [s4s].

Stop.

Ratte said:
Stop.

:(