Good morning everyone. Been gone for a bit and was going through some older stuff I had missed. In the process I came across this: http://e621.net/post/show/281250/4_toes-amber_eyes-anus-bdsm-blue_fur-bondage-bound

I thought nothing of it, but looking through the comments like the idiot I am, I saw a small controversy over the tagging of the character as either female and flat_chested or cuntboy.

I see this constantly with nearly every flat chested female on this site. The most common has definitely Mikhaila.

Looking under "cuntboy" I found these:
http://e621.net/post/show/270760/2012-4_toes-all_fours-black_nose-blonde_hair-blush
http://e621.net/post/show/270459/big_butt-bovine-butt-canine-chinny-chubby-cuntboy-
http://e621.net/post/show/266624/2012-anal-anal_penetration-clitoris-cuntboy-forced

There are many more, but these were just on the first page without scrolling down.

So I have to ask. If the site as a whole is supposed to "Tag What You See NOT What You Know," then why do we tag genders based off of the character's chest and not their genitalia?

This goes greatly for "dick-girls" also. I have seen a lot of posts with a character male in all aspects, including obvious penis and testicles, but is tagged female and dick-girl due to breasts.

Any one know why we tag male of female based off of a character's chest and not their genitalia, especially when both are visible in an image?

My opinion is that we should tag sex and gender.
Cuntboy and dickgirl being gender and male female being sex.

whereas cuntboy would be female and dickgirl would be male.

In any case, we have this:
http://e621.net/forum/show/39607

_Waffles_ said:
So I have to ask. If the site as a whole is supposed to "Tag What You See NOT What You Know," then why do we tag genders based off of the character's chest and not their genitalia?

This goes greatly for "dick-girls" also. I have seen a lot of posts with a character male in all aspects, including obvious penis and testicles, but is tagged female and dick-girl due to breasts.

Any one know why we tag based off of a character's chest and not their genitalia, especially when both are visible in an image?

Tagging is not based only on chest's. It's based on all visible sex characteristics. While I agree that sometimes (but not always) it's somewhat difficult to say whether character is cuntboy or female I disagree that tagging herms/dickgirls is in any way against TWYS rule.
You see penis, and neither vagina nor breats - you should tag male.
You see penis, and breasts, but no vagina - you should tag tag dickgirl.
You see penis, and breasts, and vagina - you should tag herm.
There's nothing to know about this, it's based purely on what you see.

Also character shouldn't be tagged both female and dickgirl.

Cuntboy and dickgirl being gender and male female being sex.

whereas cuntboy would be female and dickgirl would be male.

I disagree. If I search for male I don't want to see dickgirl or herm.
If you want penis, search for penis.
If you want pussy, search for pussy.

Kimpumomo said:
My opinion is that we should tag sex and gender.
Cuntboy and dickgirl being gender and male female being sex.

This sounds appropriate. If you have a character with penis and testicles, I would imagine that it is still a male regardless. If a baby was born with a vagina, it would called female. Until both show up (visibly due to TWYS), would you call it something else.

Gilda_The_Gryphon said:
Tagging is not based only on chest's. It's based on all visible sex characteristics. While I agree that sometimes (but not always) it's somewhat difficult to say whether character is cuntboy or female I disagree that tagging herms/dickgirls is in any way against TWYS rule.
You see penis, and neither vagina nor breats - you should tag male.
You see penis, and breasts, but no vagina - you should tag tag dickgirl.
You see penis, and breasts, and vagina - you should tag herm.
There's nothing to know about this, it's based purely on what you see.

This does not work though. That means that every flat chested female would automatically default to "cuntboy" due to the character's lack of common secondary feminine characteristics (breasts).
But as stated before, what about ferals and athletic females that are not designed to grow breasts like an average human female does?

Gilda_The_Gryphon said:
I disagree. If I search for male I don't want to see dickgirl or herm.
If you want penis, search for penis.
If you want pussy, search for pussy.

Yes, but it also seems really odd for someone that wants to search "female" gets a lot of solo penis characters because there is a hint of femimine characteristics or due to breast.

Like you:
If you want breasts, search for breasts and get breasts
If you want female, search for female and get penis...?

Genders male, female and herm seem like they should be based on genitalia (gender = genitalia).

So if a penis is seen, it should be tagged male.
If a vagina is seen, it should be tagged female.
If both a vagina and penis is seen, then it should be tagged herm.

Wouldn't "Tag What You See" follow this?

Gilda_The_Gryphon said:
I disagree. If I search for male I don't want to see dickgirl or herm.
If you want penis, search for penis.
If you want pussy, search for pussy.

wouldn't it be more logical to not show female genitalia upon searching male?
Not thinking this through, really; just going on intuition atm.

Exactly.

Search for breasts and get breasts
Search for female and get penis due to dickgirls labeled as female.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_sex_characteristic

Cuntboys have no breasts and have secondary sex characteristics of male. They are different than flat-chested female.

Dickgirls are not labeled as females. Nobody with penis shouldn't get female tag, but not everyone with penis should get male tag. Dickgirls, cuntboys, and herms get neither female, nor male tag. They get intersex instead.

If you don't want penis, add -penis to search.
If you don't want pussy, add -pussy to search.

wouldn't it be more logical to not show female genitalia upon searching male?

No, no, and one times more no! If you search for male, you're not searching for gay and male solo. You're going to get pussy, from e.g. all straight pics.

_Waffles_ said:
...If you have a character with penis and testicles, I would imagine that it is still a male regardless. If a baby was born with a vagina, it would called female. Until both show up (visibly due to TWYS), would you call it something else.
...

No, just no.
First, testicles and a penis doesn't automatically make you male.
Second, your argument falls apart if anyone is born with both penis and testicles, and a vagina.

This is how we tag genders on e621. End of discussion.

I don't even know anymore. ;~;

_Waffles_ said:
dickgirls labeled as female.

...what? If you see a dickgirl tagged female then that is simply wrong.

We tag the genders based on a priority system, first is visible genitalia, if any, second is secondary sex characteristics like breasts, face structure, hips.

Which means:

• 1. Does it possess genitalia?
• - No -> Neuter
• - Yes -> See 2.
• - not visible -> see 3.4

• 2. What genitalia does it possess?
• - Pussy -> see 3.1
• - Penis -> See 3.2
• - Both -> See 3.3

• 3. What secondary sex characteristics does it have?
• 3.1 Pussy:
• - overly female (breasts, feminine shape/face, broader hips than shoulders...) -> Female
• - overly male (flat chest, male shape/face, broader shoulders than hips...) -> cuntboy
• - androgyn -> female
• 3.2 Penis:
• - overly male (flat chest, male shape/face, broader shoulders than hips...) -> male
• - overly female (breasts, feminine shape/face, broader hips than shoulders...) -> Dickgirl
• - androgyn -> male
• 3.3 Pussy and Penis:
• - overly male (flat chest, male shape/face, broader shoulders than hips...) -> maleherm
• - overly female (breasts, feminine shape/face, broader hips than shoulders...) -> herm
• - androgyn -> herm
• 3.4 I dunno:
• - overly male (flat chest, male shape/face, broader shoulders than hips...) -> male
• - overly female (breasts, feminine shape/face, broader hips than shoulders...) -> female
• - androgyn -> ambiguous_gender

NotMeNotYou said:
...what? If you see a dickgirl tagged female then that is simply wrong.

We tag the genders based on a priority system, first is visible genitalia, if any, second is secondary sex characteristics like breasts, face structure, hips.

Which means:

• 1. Does it possess genitalia?
• - No -> Neuter
• - Yes -> See 2.
• - not visible -> see 3.4

• 2. What genitalia does it possess?
• - Pussy -> see 3.1
• - Penis -> See 3.2
• - Both -> See 3.3

• 3. What secondary sex characteristics does it have?
• 3.1 Pussy:
• - overly female (breasts, feminine shape/face, broader hips than shoulders...) -> Female
• - overly male (flat chest, male shape/face, broader shoulders than hips...) -> cuntboy
• - androgyn -> female
• 3.2 Penis:
• - overly male (flat chest, male shape/face, broader shoulders than hips...) -> male
• - overly female (breasts, feminine shape/face, broader hips than shoulders...) -> Dickgirl
• - androgyn -> male
• 3.3 Pussy and Penis:
• - overly male (flat chest, male shape/face, broader shoulders than hips...) -> maleherm
• - overly female (breasts, feminine shape/face, broader hips than shoulders...) -> herm
• - androgyn -> herm
• 3.4 I dunno:
• - overly male (flat chest, male shape/face, broader shoulders than hips...) -> male
• - overly female (breasts, feminine shape/face, broader hips than shoulders...) -> female
• - androgyn -> ambiguous_gender

Just for the record, I think this list is better sorted than the second section of the wiki, may we replace with a little finetuning?

This makes a whole lot more sense.

It seems like it also needs to be noted that dickgirl does not equal female or male and same with cuntboy.

Most of the dickgirl and cuntboy tags also have female and male tagged with them respectively. This is why I am so confused.

If any gender should be assigned, it seems like female would be with cuntboy and male to dickgirl due to genitalia. But for most it is the other way around.

So is there any way to get it known that dickgirl and cunboy are gender tags and not an addition tag to male and female?

_Waffles_ said:
This makes a whole lot more sense.

It seems like it also needs to be noted that dickgirl does not equal female or male and same with cuntboy.

Most of the dickgirl and cuntboy tags also have female and male tagged with them respectively. This is why I am so confused.

If any gender should be assigned, it seems like female would be with cuntboy and male to dickgirl due to genitalia. But for most it is the other way around.

So is there any way to get it known that dickgirl and cunboy are gender tags and not an addition tag to male and female?

Uuh, I don't know what pictures you have seen but if you see a picture with only one character in it and that picture has two gender tags (meaning two out of neuter, male, female, dickgirl, cuntboy, herm, maleherm or ambiguous_gender)) than that picture is simply mistagged.

However, two characters need two gendertags except if they are of the same gender, obviously.

Please link a few of those mistagged pictures.

*EDIT*

Ok, there are a "few" mistagged images, I put a list of all combinations up here to help me sort this crap out efficiently.

Getting back to the original topic, as you can see

y     = explicitly present
n/non = explicitly absent
mas   = obviously masculine
fem   = obviously feminine
bot   = both masculine and feminine
u/unk = unknown, obscured or ambiguous
 
Genitals? ┬ non ─ [neuter]
          ├ mas ─ Breasts? ┬ y ─ [dickgirl]
          │                ├ n ─ [male]
          │                └ u ─ Body type? ┬ mas ─ [male]
          │                                 ├ fem ─ [dickgirl]
          │                                 └ unk ─ [male]
          ├ fem ─ Breasts? ┬ y ─ [female]
          │                ├ n ┬ Body type? ┬ mas ─ [cuntboy]
          │                └ u ┘            ├ fem ─ [female]
          │                                 └ unk ─ [female]
          ├ bot ─ Breasts? ┬ y ─ [herm]
          │                ├ n ┬ Body type? ┬ mas ─ [maleherm]
          │                └ u ┘            ├ fem ─ [herm]
          │                                 └ unk ─ [herm]
          └ unk ─ Breasts? ┬ y ─ [female]
                           ├ n ┬ Body type? ┬ mas ─ [male]
                           └ u ┘            ├ fem ─ [female]
                                            └ unk ─ [ambiguous_gender]

the only distinction we have between a cuntboy and a flat_chested female is the subject's body type. If it's obviously masculine (mas), the subject is tagged cuntboy. Anything outright feminine (fem) or even debatably so (unk) is tagged female.

By applying these rules, we can easily determine the proper tag for each of your examples:

1:

post #281250

The main source of confusion in this image stems from the structure of the subject's chest. Ignoring the lack of breasts, the artist has rendered the character's rib cage and lats in such a way that they appear much wider than the suggested width of the subject's waist, evoking the characteristic v-shaped torso many associate with masculinity. However, if one places one's hand between the torso and one's eyes, leaving only the rest of the character visible, this perception of masculinity vanishes, as the mind now focuses on the subject's soft facial features and convexly structured hips. Therefore, because the subject's overall body type is somewhat in conflict with itself, it can be said to be ambiguous, and the character should then be tagged female.

2:

post #270760

Because I doubt you want to read another huge paragraph, I'll reduce the rest of my analyses to bullet points.

• Ambiguous Face
• Short Hair
• Full Jawline Not Visible
• Long Eyelashes
• Masculine Upper Body
• Defined Muscles and Sharp Features on the Chest, Shoulder, and Forearm
• Feminine Abdomen and Lower Body
• Apparent Hourglass Figure
• Convex Thigh and Calf Structure
• Very Rounded Knee Structure (Compare to Elbows and Feet)

Overall Conflicting -> Female

3:

post #270459

• Overall Masculine Face
• Short Hair
• Sharp Jawline
• Very Sharp Turn from Muzzle to Glabella
• Masculine Upper Body
• V-Shaped Chest
• Defined Muscles
• Large Shoulders
• Ambiguous Lower Body
• Convex Butt and Thigh Structure
• Sharp Turns All Over (and not just where the bones are; artist might want to work on that)

Overall Masculine -> Cuntboy

4:

post #266624

• Ambiguous Face
• Short but Flowy Hair
• Pointed Chin but Obscured Rear Jawline
• Softly Shaded Muzzle and Cheekbones
• Masculine Upper Body
• Defined Muscles
• Broad Shoulders Compared to Hips
• Sharp Corners on Hands and Fingers
• Ambiguous Lower Body
• Upper Hips Not Visible
• Somewhat Convex Butt and Thighs but Could Easily Go Both Ways

Overall Ambiguous -> Female

Anyway, I hope this clears some things up for you and provides something to which people can refer should this debate ever surface again.

This is what I was after. Just more defined information so that tagging can be more presise. Thank you everyone for your help, I appreciate it.

I know I'm pretty late to the party here (don't even get me started on why I've barely been around the past 3 weeks..), but I wrote a fairly detailed response on the first image linked above: http://e621.net/post/show/281250

Just in case anyone is interested in my own thoughts regarding the tagging of gender for posts like that one.

Char said:
[...](don't even get me started on why I've barely been around the past 3 weeks..)[...]

...You were working on your level to finally evolve and get into that club?

NotMeNotYouMobile said:
...You were working on your level to finally evolve and get into that club?

Or just... busy... with stuff(or perhaps Little Inferno =^.^= ).

_Waffles_ said:
...In the process I came across this: http://e621.net/post/show/281250/4_toes-amber_eyes-anus-bdsm-blue_fur-bondage-bound

how...did i know that that image was going to be part of this thread...i must be psychic...