Aliasing dickgirl → feminine_intersex
Link to alias

Reason:

As suggested by Ratte on page 22 of the slur tags forum, https://e621.net/forum/show/195804?page=22

Ratte said:
Wondering if something like feminine_intersex and masculine_intersex might be better options than the female/male_intersex since it may describe overall body appearance more whereas male and female tends to make people focus on genitals in particular.

It's a thought.

And in accordance with the other popular suggestions such as intersex_female and feminine_with_penis this fits very well, its short, sweet, to the point and impossible to be confused about. Its harmless and gets the point across.

Also, formally suggesting

Aliasing cuntboy → masculine_intersex
Link to alias

Reason:

Same as above, following suit with general sex tagging rules. Body type comes first over genitalia.

I feel as though maybe you're jumping the gun a bit here making a post about this (and wow it's hard to say that considering how long that thread has been going on) but honestly all the same, I think I support this.

Clawdragons said:
I feel as though maybe you're jumping the gun a bit here making a post about this (and wow it's hard to say that considering how long that thread has been going on) but honestly all the same, I think I support this.

Definitely but part of me feels like the other thread has somehow gone to hell. And felt that this is the best logical step forward with something formal.

Siral_Exan said:
https://e621.net/forum/show/208915 for a placeholder, once I can compare what Ratte said. https://e621.net/forum/show/211398 As suspected, I did suggest this...

You also misspelled "feminine" in your first alias request. Once I am awake, I can give actual input, seems like a lot of shit happened in two hours.

Thank you so much, sorry about the misspell.

Well, my vote's in for the change. Ultimately, this is phrased a little bit better than mine (I didn't know that cuntboy/dickgirls can get girly/tomboy, for instance), and I had already tipped my hat in favor of this when I made that comment twenty-seven days ago. And I decided to hide my recent forum post because it is just a placeholder, if anyone is wondering.

I also see and agree-ish with what clawsragons said, not to target their phrasing but I think "jumping the gun" is more apt as "taking an unexpected step". To either of which, I'd agree if I didn't expect it, but I thought that someone would take the ideas on that thread and just make the request. This is just one finite attempt, where before we had been loitering around the cork board with some murmured agreements. If this fails, it's just back to the drawing board we keep to the side of the cork board. It's good to know that you support the idea, though.

And yes, that thread has gone to hell.

-1

Female/girl is a better word than feminine for the following reasons:

• it matches the original better
• it signifies an actual gender and not just a character feature
• it does not create inconsistencies (if we used feminine to describe a gender with feminine features, then we would also need to rename female to feminine)

Intersex is a bad choice / confusing for the following reasons:

• the existing intersex tag is an umbrella tag for both herms and genital swapped characters, so users would think this tag applies to herms also
• the tag does not mention genitals so users can't easily tell which genitals should be present for this tag to apply
• the word has a relative meaning

So of course, the whole tag is confusing because:

• vagina is a feminine feature so users won't know if the character is feminine because it has a pussy, or feminine because of its body.
• what is intersexed with what?

So, just go back into the other thread guys. It seems 22 pages was not enough :P

Go read that thread and you'll see why we aren't deciding with male or female... someone already said why in there. You'll know.

-1 because feminine intersex and masculine intersex as terms include also herms and maleherms.

Mutisija said:
-1 because feminine intersex and masculine intersex as terms include also herms and maleherms.

Gonna take rework a part from my comment and say:

Herm -> feminine_herm
Maleherm -> masculine_herm

they'll follow suit since this would change the focus from genitals to body type. Quite frankly, it is odd that there is an implication from maleherm to herm.

Mutisija said:
-1 because feminine intersex and masculine intersex as terms include also herms and maleherms.

-1 for the same reason. Herm are intersex. Maleherm are 'masculine intersex'.

Siral_Exan said:
Quite frankly, it is odd that there is an implication from maleherm to herm.

How so? Herm is for all herms, not just for the feminine ones. Splitting it into feminine and masculine is not something that's likely to ever happen, because that'd lead to more tag wars and leave no tag for androgynous herms.

Delian said:
<snip>

I agree with all of this.

-1 for obvious reasons. _{^{Not as if my opinion actually matters anymore}}

Likely too early for this kind of thing.

Ratte said:
Likely too early for this kind of thing.

Clearly. I was going to send you a note on it first frankly but the other thread has gone to hell and it is a really good singular suggestion and the best one that's come by so far that this community would be receptive to

GDelscribe said:
Clearly. I was going to send you a note on it first frankly but the other thread has gone to hell and it is a really good singular suggestion and the best one that's come by so far that this community would be receptive to

Apparently not given the responses here.

Ratte said:
Apparently not given the responses here.

Clearly.

I would like to bring up something that might change some points of view:

https://e621.net/forum/show/207982

If we can create a distinction between intersex and herms in our tagging system, then this proposal no longer has the element of ambiguity that some have objected to.

At the time it seemed like the consensus was that it would be a bit of work for not too much benefit, but here now we can see some extra benefit the change would allow us.

Clawdragons said:
I would like to bring up something that might change some points of view:

https://e621.net/forum/show/207982

If we can create a distinction between intersex and herms in our tagging system, then this proposal no longer has the element of ambiguity that some have objected to.

At the time it seemed like the consensus was that it would be a bit of work for not too much benefit, but here now we can see some extra benefit the change would allow us.

This is something I've wanted for a while.

Genjar said:
-1 for the same reason. Herm are intersex. Maleherm are 'masculine intersex'.

How so? Herm is for all herms, not just for the feminine ones. Splitting it into feminine and masculine is not something that's likely to ever happen, because that'd lead to more tag wars and leave no tag for androgynous herms.

just saying why have maleherm separate then if separation is such an issue you make it out to be, feminine herms are grouped with other non differentiated herms under herm. worth noting that admins here already do not recognize androgynous herms so i dont see how something that is already forcefully shoe horned into the feminine or masculine and out of existence under present tags by staff would be effected, not to say i wouldnt support a tag specifically for androgynous herms being created. concerning tag wars, how exactly would this cause more? sense the factor in a good number of them does seem to be because they are shoe horned into something they are not even under twys...

In what way is this going to facilitate searches or make finding and blacklisting things easier for people? What do these new tags do that cuntboy and dickgirl don't? For something that would take this much work, it'd have to be reeeaaally helpful, and I just don't see it.

ippiki_ookami said:
In what way is this going to facilitate searches or make finding and blacklisting things easier for people? What do these new tags do that cuntboy and dickgirl don't? For something that would take this much work, it'd have to be reeeaaally helpful, and I just don't see it.

just curious were you not here for the nonsense that was the slur tags thread?

ippiki_ookami said:
In what way is this going to facilitate searches or make finding and blacklisting things easier for people? What do these new tags do that cuntboy and dickgirl don't? For something that would take this much work, it'd have to be reeeaaally helpful, and I just don't see it.

This not about facilitating better or worse searches,
pertaining to the OP specifically this would not effect searches as this is just a name change to remove outmoded nomenclature that is considered derogatory by the majority of the demographic that identify as some form of intersex and many artists. what this does is pretty much the exact same thing that such alias as the dick or dong alias to penis do. usability is not actually hurt. As for the herm tags there is considerations of deimplicating them leaving a tag specifically for masculine herms and another for feminine herms, de facto we already have that, sence people already default herm as feminine and we do already have male herm so much of the effect for ether is in name only again.

Please note that while characters depicted in art here are fictional they often are regarded by the owner and their fans often as well as a part of the owner so such words will be seen as applying to the owner as well while other just dont think characters should be demeaned just because they are fictional.
Also again such words as "cunt" or "dick" have already been aliased or detagged away in almost all their other forms and relations that they have shown up on this site so i really do not see why people opposing this are blowing the issue so much out of proportion about updating the sex/gender tags.

Let's just make tags:

boob-penised_intersex
pec-vaginaed_intersex
boobed_multisex
pecced_multisex
ambiguous_multisex

Then nobody gets offended.

...Oh who am I kidding. People will be offended regardless. I don't honestly see the point of all this or changing any of it.

ippiki_ookami said:
In what way is this going to facilitate searches or make finding and blacklisting things easier for people? What do these new tags do that cuntboy and dickgirl don't? For something that would take this much work, it'd have to be reeeaaally helpful, and I just don't see it.

Well it would cut down on arguments for one. it's one of the most commonly debated sets of tags on the site to the point of having at least one thread/argument and tagging war or more for it come up a month.

Like. This subject had been brought up multiple times. OVER years now.

This is better for tag clarification as well. As it sits right now one of the arguments that keeps coming up on whether or not something should be tagged with dgirl or cboy is that users are focused on the genitalia etc.

We tag with body type as the focus of what defines sex because otherwise we would not be tagging safe images with sex tags among other things.

This strips away the genitals aspect of the tags and makes it less difficult to be confused over their purpose.

Second. With all due respect. These tags have considerable meaning behind them for a lot of trans, intersex and etc artists in the fandom. They are a big reason that some artists are pushed away from here and remove their artwork. We've had someone in the very recent past banned for removing these tags from their art because they were fine with intersex but VERY uncomfortable with cuntboy being used to describe their character in their own artwork.

And surprise surprise a lot of people don't like to be called slurs.

The only actual opposition I've seen to any of this change at all has consistently been "wow this is pc so it shouldn't happen."

There are tons of reasons for it. Actively ignoring those reasons because you're "anti pc" or anti essjaywoo or something stupid like that isn't a reason that's presentable literally any other time in any of the other discussions here on site so why in the bloody hell is it suddenly acceptable here and now for this?

Because the current tags hurt people and push them away and there are some people with their head so far up their ass that they'd rather keep them intentionally for that very reason out of spite?

Also.

Literally everything Ruku said a million times over. We dont have a 22 page discussion when someone wants to change a regular boring slang tag to something more scientific. Outside of trying to find a good compromise for people there's no reason for that. Literally over 50% of dissenters from his are only dissenting because they're "anti politeness".

Lastly as it's been brought up. Herm and intersex should absolutely be separated because they're not the same thing at all. Not to mention you can be intersex irl but you can't be a "herm" which is a purely fantasy thing.

Trans People and intersex with (I can't remember the name right now), that condition where they are born physically outside with one sex but have the opposite gonads. They end up with actual bodies like this.

So. SINCE in real life. People who have real bodies that really look like this are a majority /trans individuals/ (which is explicitly why I suggested using trans man and trans woman as the tags in first place) it doesn't make sense to me hat a site like this would actively intentionally continue to use transphobic slurs to describe what is primarily a trans body type.

Mutisija said:
-1 because feminine intersex and masculine intersex as terms include also herms and maleherms.

If there's enough reason to split herm and maleherm there's enough reason to split herm and intersex. FURTHERMORE intersex ad an umbrella bracket is completely fine to continue using even though it clearly confuses users nd is a detrimental tag umbrella in that regard.

Wodahseht said:
Let's just make tags:

boob-penised_intersex
pec-vaginaed_intersex
boobed_multisex
pecced_multisex
ambiguous_multisex

Then nobody gets offended.

...Oh who am I kidding. People will be offended regardless. I don't honestly see the point of all this or changing any of it.

Not to insult you but your suggestions mean the exact same things that were suggesting here and yet somehow you've managed to spectacularly miss the point entirely.

Also to anyone who wants case in point proof of what I'm saying Check out https://e621.net/user/show/184594

An artist who simply did not want their character tagged with slurs, got banned for it and then dnp'd their art. Theyre just outright gone now because of this.

GDelscribe said:
Not to insult you but your suggestions mean the exact same things that were suggesting here and yet somehow you've managed to spectacularly miss the point entirely.

Also to anyone who wants case in point proof of what I'm saying Check out https://e621.net/user/show/184594

An artist who simply did not want their character tagged with slurs, got banned for it and then dnp'd their art. Theyre just outright gone now because of this.

I just love the fact that, pretty much up till now (when the topic has been brought back), he didn't had issue with the tags. Coincidence?.
Also, saying "got banned because he didn't wanted their character tagget with slurs" is little bit misleading. He got banned because he continued to break the rules. Even though was told by other user how tagging sysmtem work and by admin not to do. His response? "Nah, I don't care about your rules.". If he would stop deleting the tags like he was told, he wouldn't get banned.
If you, me, or everyone else would go, and start deleting tags that are considered valid by the rules, we would get record. And if we wouldn't stop, we'd get banned. The same way as he got.
Also, he didn't vanished from the entire internet. He still does have all of his pictures on his FA profile. So, he isn't "outright gone because of this", his art is just no longer here.

---

As for the alias:
-1 for both
Both of them would work better as umbrella tags:
Both cuntboy and maleherm implying masculine_intersex, which implies intersex.
Both dickgirl and herm inplying feminine_intersex, which implies intersex.
Both cuntboy and maleherm being replaced by masculine_intersex, which will then imply intersex.
Both dickgirl and herm being replaced by feminine_intersex, which will then imply intersex.

The "charm" of cuntboy and dickgirl is, that it is simple and it literally says "it is male with vagina/ female with penis". Why creating new and confusing tags when we could use their definition as a tag?

So, here is my suggestion:
cuntboy -> male_with_vagina
dickgirl -> female_with_penis

Too long? Short them to MWV/FWP and implicate them to their long forms.

GDelscribe said:
If there's enough reason to split herm and maleherm--

Again, they're not split. Herm is the main tag for any character that has both penis and pussy. The body type is irrelevant. And maleherm is a subtag for the rare herms that have masculine bodytype.

Splitting it into three (masculine_herm, feminine_herm, ambiguous_herm) is the worst idea I've heard recently. The last thing we need is more tag wars ("that's not feminine, it has a penis"). The existing ones are enough of a headache.

GDelscribe said:
Not to insult you but your suggestions mean the exact same things that were suggesting here and yet somehow you've managed to spectacularly miss the point entirely.

My suggestions were completely non-serious because I honestly do not see a reason for the change. People will find a way to be offended by anything you do. Cuntboy? "That's a slur." Masculine intersex? "How dare you judge someone by their chest size. She's a female!"

Cuntboy is a very common tag used all over the web on image searches. It's a common term and I can't think of any time I've personally seen it used as a slur. It's just a description.

Most sites lump herm and "chicks with dicks" into a single term of futa. We split that to make searching easier. The former became herm (and male_herm), and the latter became dickgirl so that naming convention matched with cuntboy.

They are useable, descriptive, and (again) I've not seen any of them used in a derogatory fashion.

As to "it's an issue that constantly comes up": this may be true, but it always seems to be the same people that keep bringing it up, not the angry masses.

---

All that said, I'm out. Don't have anything more to say. I don't think it should change, but I also don't care if it does. Whatever. Have fun.

hello_world said:
I just love the fact that, pretty much up till now (when the topic has been brought back), he didn't had issue with the tags. Coincidence?.
Also, saying "got banned because he didn't wanted their character tagget with slurs" is little bit misleading. He got banned because he continued to break the rules. Even though was told by other user how tagging sysmtem work and by admin not to do. His response? "Nah, I don't care about your rules.". If he would stop deleting the tags like he was told, he wouldn't get banned.
If you, me, or everyone else would go, and start deleting tags that are considered valid by the rules, we would get record. And if we wouldn't stop, we'd get banned. The same way as he got.
Also, he didn't vanished from the entire internet. He still does have all of his pictures on his FA profile. So, he isn't "outright gone because of this", his art is just no longer here.

---

As for the alias:
-1 for both
Both of them would work better as umbrella tags:
Both cuntboy and maleherm implying masculine_intersex, which implies intersex.
Both dickgirl and herm inplying feminine_intersex, which implies intersex.
Both cuntboy and maleherm being replaced by masculine_intersex, which will then imply intersex.
Both dickgirl and herm being replaced by feminine_intersex, which will then imply intersex.

The "charm" of cuntboy and dickgirl is, that it is simple and it literally says "it is male with vagina/ female with penis". Why creating new and confusing tags when we could use their definition as a tag?

So, here is my suggestion:
cuntboy -> male_with_vagina
dickgirl -> female_with_penis

Too long? Short them to MWV/FWP and implicate them to their long forms.

We've already mentioned the problem with those: People would assume it's an excuse to tag male as well.
(Although, I wonder how long that problem would last if we keep up enforcement)

Furrin_Gok said:
(Although, I wonder how long that problem would last if we keep up enforcement)

Forever. At least if the other tags are any indicator. For instance, slightly_chubby is still constantly mistagged even though the admins have slapped several users for it.

I'd say it's jumping the gun a *little*, but I'd be in support of this change or what hello world said here:

hello_world said:
-1 for both
Both of them would work better as umbrella tags:
Both cuntboy and maleherm implying masculine_intersex, which implies intersex.
Both dickgirl and herm inplying feminine_intersex, which implies intersex.
Both cuntboy and maleherm being replaced by masculine_intersex, which will then imply intersex.
Both dickgirl and herm being replaced by feminine_intersex, which will then imply intersex.

The "charm" of cuntboy and dickgirl is, that it is simple and it literally says "it is male with vagina/ female with penis". Why creating new and confusing tags when we could use their definition as a tag?

So, here is my suggestion:
cuntboy -> male_with_vagina
dickgirl -> female_with_penis

Too long? Short them to MWV/FWP and implicate them to their long forms.

Though in this day and age.....

Wodahseht said:
My suggestions were completely non-serious because I honestly do not see a reason for the change. People will find a way to be offended by anything you do. Cuntboy? "That's a slur." Masculine intersex? "How dare you judge someone by their chest size. She's a female!"

Cuntboy is a very common tag used all over the web on image searches. It's a common term and I can't think of any time I've personally seen it used as a slur. It's just a description.

Most sites lump herm and "chicks with dicks" into a single term of futa. We split that to make searching easier. The former became herm (and male_herm), and the latter became dickgirl so that naming convention matched with cuntboy.

They are useable, descriptive, and (again) I've not seen any of them used in a derogatory fashion.

As to "it's an issue that constantly comes up": this may be true, but it always seems to be the same people that keep bringing it up, not the angry masses.

---

All that said, I'm out. Don't have anything more to say. I don't think it should change, but I also don't care if it does. Whatever. Have fun.

The more jaded side of me that's been watching all the noise on the internet has to agree....there's always going to be a number of people who will never be happy, and the parasites unfortunately have gone and latched onto all this about gender during a time when it is an important issue. As long as they feel they have "power" in yelling angrily and trying to shame others, or they feel they have some means of retribution for not getting their way like trying to get their perceived "aggressors" fired from real life jobs or taking content down from sites, they're going to be like this. Until they quiet down, they're going to appear to represent a larger demographic than they really are; how many people are truly supportive of or concerned by this, I do not know.

hello_world said:
I just love the fact that, pretty much up till now (when the topic has been brought back), he didn't had issue with the tags. Coincidence?.
Also, saying "got banned because he didn't wanted their character tagget with slurs" is little bit misleading. He got banned because he continued to break the rules. Even though was told by other user how tagging sysmtem work and by admin not to do. His response? "Nah, I don't care about your rules.". If he would stop deleting the tags like he was told, he wouldn't get banned.
If you, me, or everyone else would go, and start deleting tags that are considered valid by the rules, we would get record. And if we wouldn't stop, we'd get banned. The same way as he got.
Also, he didn't vanished from the entire internet. He still does have all of his pictures on his FA profile. So, he isn't "outright gone because of this", his art is just no longer here.

This is also an important clarification; they're banned for breaking the rules, not some "oppressive regime against change". I can't make someone on FA unblock me because they didn't like the fact that I linked to US law documentation and court case examples on a hot topic that they were apparently quite rabid on; even if I broke no rules and they were effectively abusing site tools, I'd be breaking harassment rules trying.

At least e621 is open to trying to consider change to reduce unnecessary issues, unlike FA; The entire reason I abandoned my FA account is because I saw no point in violating rules trying to "force my way" knowing I'd be banned in a heartbeat, and like some of those who get in tagging wars with the admins over gender (and obviously lose) I'm not the type to quietly sit there and take it when I feel it's wrong.

Delian said:
Stuff

Agreed, I don't see how this change could possibly make things easier.

User's have been using dickgirl/cuntboy/herm for tag searching for a long time, and to change it all completely would cause confusion.

-1 for the alias

Also, not to categorize GDelscribe or offend, but my mind immediately went towards SJW shit when I read the post.

Omnicidal said:

User's have been using dickgirl/cuntboy/herm for tag searching for a long time, and to change it all completely would cause confusion.

You know, there are actual sound arguments against it.
This isn't one. Aliasing is standard practice.

Omnicidal said:
Agreed, I don't see how this change could possibly make things easier.

User's have been using dickgirl/cuntboy/herm for tag searching for a long time, and to change it all completely would cause confusion.
-1 for the alias

But...that's an argument in favour of aliasing. Type in the current terms for tag searching post-change, and you still find what you're looking for.

Omnicidal said:
Agreed, I don't see how this change could possibly make things easier.

User's have been using dickgirl/cuntboy/herm for tag searching for a long time, and to change it all completely would cause confusion.

-1 for the alias

Also, not to categorize GDelscribe or offend, but my mind immediately went towards SJW shit when I read the post.

Like ForbiddenFruit said, that's a +1, not a -1. If you type in gay into a search, despite there being zero images under that tag you still get tons of relevant images. Why? Because gay was aliased to male/male and searches use those aliases to find the right tag.

Furrin_Gok said:
Like ForbiddenFruit said, that's a +1, not a -1. If you type in gay into a search, despite there being zero images under that tag you still get tons of relevant images. Why? Because gay was aliased to male/male and searches use those aliases to find the right tag.

ForbiddenFruit said:
But...that's an argument in favour of aliasing. Type in the current terms for tag searching post-change, and you still find what you're looking for.

No, it isn't. It's saying that he doesn't want the alias to happen because he wants the tags to be the same because they've been this way for a long time.

Regardless of whether or not you'd still find the same stuff these new tags are ridiculous and unnecessary. Just leave things as they are here. No new tags, no aliasing.

They describe in frank, easy to understand, and singular words exactly what it is being looked for. Dickgirl - girl but with a dick instead of vagina (balls optional, and they are), cuntboy - boy but with a vagina instead of male genitalia, herm - anything with both male and female stuff, for speicifically masculine ones there's mherm or maleherm, whichever it is.

So no, no aliasing to. If people want to alias the new tags to these tags, sure, but don't alias these old tags to the proposed.

AnotherDay said:
No, it isn't. It's saying that he doesn't want the alias to happen because he wants the tags to be the same because they've been this way for a long time.

Regardless of whether or not you'd still find the same stuff these new tags are ridiculous and unnecessary. Just leave things as they are here. No new tags, no aliasing.

They describe in frank, easy to understand, and singular words exactly what it is being looked for. Dickgirl - girl but with a dick instead of vagina (balls optional, and they are), cuntboy - boy but with a vagina instead of male genitalia, herm - anything with both male and female stuff, for speicifically masculine ones there's mherm or maleherm, whichever it is.

So no, no aliasing to. If people want to alias the new tags to these tags, sure, but don't alias these old tags to the proposed.

I don't agree that "because it's always been that way" is a reason to not change something. The current tags can easily be seen as derogatory, since they're used that way often in the real world, so coming up with something less potentially insulting (not to mention more professional-sounding, similar to how horsecock was aliased to equine_penis) would avoid people taking issue with the tag names while still letting anyone who's used to using cuntboy/dickgirl search for or blacklist them without any problem.

So does anyone have a reason for changing these tags other than "muh feelings" or is this going to be nothing but people complaining about their inability to handle words?

BlueDingo said:
So does anyone have a reason for changing these tags other than "muh feelings" or is this going to be nothing but people complaining about their inability to handle words?

Probably not.

I can understand people who are transsexual, IE FtM not wanting to be called "cuntboy" in real life; and I have a few friends who are uncomfortable with the terms due to their own personal choices. It hits deeper due to being connected with a serious issue to them rather than just them being overly sensitive.

I'll be honest though, trying to come to a compromise with the folks I care about is about the extent of it; I myself don't give a damn about if I were called a dickgirl despite my own gender concerns any more than some child's schoolyard insult. If one's reasonably bothered by it I'll be sympathetic, but if they're getting extremely bent out of shape over it just because it's "popular to get angry" I couldn't give a damn.

But yes it likely is mostly "muh feelings", though in the case of some at least not without a reason.

BlueDingo said:
So does anyone have a reason for changing these tags other than "muh feelings" or is this going to be nothing but people complaining about their inability to handle words?

consistency, we have good dozen other tags major and small that where changed in name only for the same reason, did they destroy the ability or in anyway effect the content people search for? no they didnt as such so far the excuse you all have is that it has always been that way so it shouldnt be updated to todays standard, which is not a valid excuse for opposing a simple name change to remove what is left of vulgar tags from e621 tagging system. Some change is bad but so is stagnation.

Not to say that its worthless responding to you but you already made your ignorance and interest in not wanting to understand in this pretty clear in thinking this is just some joke by calling it "muh feelings". The fact of the matter is that these terms are not tolerated at all in public, not within the demographic they generally tend to be applied to and nor should it be tolerated here. And using its use by porn sites as an excuse to also continue using it here as some in opposition have been using is rather stupid sence e621 is not a porn site.

We have given our reasons while pretty much everyone opposing in the past 2-3 days have shown nothing at all so far but simple tradition/status quo. the fear that this will effect searches in anyway is completely baseless, we have a dozen major tag alias similar to this to prove that

alot of this opposition seems nothing more then opposing for the sake of opposing. rather then having any real interest behind these actions.

PS:"...people complaining about their inability to handle words?" You are aware you are one do you?

Ultimately, "it's offensive" is, to my mind, a rather weak reason to change tags on a site like this.

However, what a lot of people seem to not understand is that "it's always been this way" is an even weaker reason to keep the tags as they are.

That's why I just don't understand this opposition to changing the tags at all. I understand opposition to certain changes. "This would result in a lot of mistagging" is a great reason not to make a change, and trumps "it's offensive" on the reason hierarchy. I've made arguments like that plenty against many different proposals we've had so far. But I just don't get why there seems to be so much opposition to any change at all, without considering what that change is.

Cause muh comfort zone.

(no really, IMO that's exactly it. Personally I always try to keep in mind that 'not every change is an improvement, but every improvement is a change', but there's still a part of me that doesn't care.)

BlueDingo said:
So does anyone have a reason for changing these tags other than "muh feelings" or is this going to be nothing but people complaining about their inability to handle words?

Well, the only thing that you've contributed is complaining about perceived complaining, so you aren't standing on any ground beyond 'muh feelings' either.

Clawdragons said:
Ultimately, "it's offensive" is, to my mind, a rather weak reason to change tags on a site like this.

However, what a lot of people seem to not understand is that "it's always been this way" is an even weaker reason to keep the tags as they are.

That's why I just don't understand this opposition to changing the tags at all. I understand opposition to certain changes. "This would result in a lot of mistagging" is a great reason not to make a change, and trumps "it's offensive" on the reason hierarchy. I've made arguments like that plenty against many different proposals we've had so far. But I just don't get why there seems to be so much opposition to any change at all, without considering what that change is.

Like I said somewhere before, you don't create progress by taking a sledgehammer to the foundations, you create instability. It would be nice if the change is made, but just changing stuff without considering the rational effects of what else is changed or dependent on what we're changing isn't the way to go........if I recall right the purpose of this thread was to figure out if this is a suitable choice, not throwing insults and illogical bickering.

TL:DR I'm agreeing with you.

Here's the truth, take it or leave it.

- Nobody gives half a shit about the intricate medical details of a creature when determining its sex or gender, only outer appearance and general functionality.

- Hermaphrodites are not intersex. An intersex has some but not all traits of both its species' binary genders, while a hermaphrodite has all of them (which is not possible in human anatomy.) If the female has breasts and/or the male has (external) testicles, the hermaphrodite must have these too.

- A "dickgirl" is a male intersex because it has only male genitals. It is not, however, a male by any sane reckoning, and should not be classified under one.

- A "cuntboy" is a female intersex because it has only female genitals. It is not, however, a female by any sane reckoning, and should not be classified under one.

FibS said:
Here's the truth, take it or leave it.

- Nobody gives half a shit about the intricate medical details of a creature when determining its sex or gender, only outer appearance and general functionality.

- Hermaphrodites are not intersex. An intersex has some but not all traits of both its species' binary genders, while a hermaphrodite has all of them (which is not possible in human anatomy.) If the female has breasts and/or the male has (external) testicles, the hermaphrodite must have these too.

- A "dickgirl" is a male intersex because it has only male genitals. It is not, however, a male by any sane reckoning, and should not be classified under one.

- A "cuntboy" is a female intersex because it has only female genitals. It is not, however, a female by any sane reckoning, and should not be classified under one.

Fun fact. If even one person disagrees with you, "Nobody gives a shit" becomes inaccurate.

I for one actually find the science behind reproductive anatomy as well as genetics and genetic mutations to be incredibly fascinating, even though I'd never be able to even hope to pursue a career in the field.

404_ArtNotFound said:
Fun fact. If even one person disagrees with you, "Nobody gives a shit" becomes inaccurate.

I for one actually find the science behind reproductive anatomy as well as genetics and genetic mutations to be incredibly fascinating, even though I'd never be able to even hope to pursue a career in the field.

Did you try reading his whole sentence, or did you turn around to yell at him after the first five words?

FibS said:
- Nobody gives half a shit about the intricate medical details of a creature when determining its sex or gender

It's implied this applies to images here, not real life. We tag what we see, ignoring any knowledge of the medical details of it.

Furrin_Gok said:
Did you try reading his whole sentence, or did you turn around to yell at him after the first five words?
It's implied this applies to images here, not real life. We tag what we see, ignoring any knowledge of the medical details of it.

You're implying I'm upset, or that I care what one says when their first statement is "Nobody gives a shit" when people clearly do, much as I may or may not give a shit. I care about logic, not disagreeing by dismissing everyone else.

I am offended by the terms 'Masculine_Intersex' and 'Feminine_Intersex' because it lumps cuntboys into the herm groups and sounds retarded when you say it out-loud. Plus, as for being professional... Has anyone considered that we're on a forum on a porn image database that is primarily furry? No? Yes? Because, I mean, this is all fantasy. Everything is fantasy. There is no such thing proven to exist as any of this. There is only two genders; Male, and Female, and even those are mased upon what your genitals are. So the arguement that 'Cuntboy' and 'Dickgirl' are problematic because they focus on genitals, is pointless, because we tag herms, males, and females, on the exact same premise, the genitals.

I haven't seen anyone talking about being offended by the male and female tags!

-1 here.
_

We don't tag by just genitals, mafia, for males and females they also get body type. This gives the ability to tag certain genderless species and ignore sexual dimorphism. Intersexes need both, a mismatched genitals to body type. Remember that mikhaila link? Male body, with a pussy. Doesn't stop it from being girly, though.

But, care to prove how we don't tag by body type?

Marflebark, there are people who do look like this in real life. THIS isnt a discussion about your lack of understanding of the topic to support a baseless argument. And furthermore we already list these current tags as intersex via implications.

If you have nothing to contribute or don't understand the actual discussion then please refrain from truing to derail the discussion with outright fabrication.

Furthermore it's just as Siral said. Its a body type tag primarily. The tag should be reflecting of hat. We tag most everything based on body type. NOT genitals.

This is no different.

Lastly, I'm not going to get into the discussion here as this is not the place for it but gender is not a binary of male and female. Youre thinking of the term sex. Among humans there are three presentable physical sexes. Male. Female and intersex which are categorized oftentimes by the primary sexual characteristics such as genitalia. Then secondarily by secondary sex characteristics such as internal gonadal organs and pelvic structure and other skeletal differences which are tied to hormones.

In TL:DR don't presume to be taking some moral or scientific holy higher ground when you clearly don't know what you're talking about.

The reason hy this set of tags works so well is because it primarily takes the body type into account which is historically what e621 uses as it's judging point for whether a character should be tagged s intersex with dgirl or cboy in the first place.

Ugh I can't believe this **** is still going on.... **** Since I'm here anyway now.

I don't care if something is "offensive" cause that only work on intent and how you receive the word. Its easy to make some thing offensive not offensive.

Now are the word vulgar as consider by the present day world? Yes. For that reason do they need changing? Yes I believe so.

Don't get me wrong I am still opposed to the change but all the reasons for why I oppose it have to do with SJW's. Ultimately I am in favor of it though for the simple fact that it is a little vulgar and I want to see some artists remove themselves from the DNP list.

But for crying out loud this is old. "Its always been this way" "Muh feeling" from both sides its getting ridiculous at this point.

Finally. GDel. +1 to the change. Out everything that has been suggest it looks the best. It descriptive and gets the point across.

Siral_Exan said:
Remember that mikhaila link? Male body, with a pussy. Doesn't stop it from being girly, though.

This actually brings up one of my more grounded issues with these particular tag suggestions:

Mikhaila would get masculine_intersex + girly
...and other images could end up with feminine_intersex + manly

Effectively, you're giving a single character tags stating opposite body types.

That's one reason I'd prefer the male_intersex / female_intersex over these. They give relation to binary without specifically referencing body's build.

Wodahseht said:
This actually brings up one of my more grounded issues with these particular tag suggestions:

Mikhaila would get masculine_intersex + girly
...and other images could end up with feminine_intersex + manly

Effectively, you're giving a single character tags stating opposite body types.

That's one reason I'd prefer the male_intersex / female_intersex over these. They give relation to binary without specifically referencing body's build.

That was why I believed that intersexes wouldn't get those two tags (girly and tomboy). The difference between girly and female/cuntboy is a very thin thread, and all those arguments already accent the problem.

My original idea was reversed because of her, where she would get intersex_feminine, but it was still ultimately genitals and not body type, so I still believe that accenting tags like the two above do not make the gender. If a character has enough to be male, and not enough to be female (and etc for other binary arguments), they can still be tagged girly but will never suggest that they are female or feminine completely.

Like I said, they can look female, and have some feminine traits, but they are not tagged female if they have too much male traits. Girly/tomboy are more accenting tags, IMO, and can be tagged, but that is not grounds to say that they are the opposite gender(s). After all, we don't tag girly females or tomboy males...

Siral_Exan said:
Girly/<<manly>> are more accenting tags, IMO, and can be tagged, but that is not grounds to say that they are the opposite gender(s).

Not saying gender. Saying body type:

masculine_intersex girly implies masculine body type and feminine body type - with vagina.
feminine_intersex manly implies feminine body type and masculine body type - with penis

There keeps being a push not to base the tags on the genitals, but that's what you're visually basing them on, so why not?

A female (breasts + vagina) can have feminine, masculine, or androgynous features.
A male (no breasts + penis) can have feminine, masculine, or androgynous features.
A dickgirl (no breasts + vagina) can have feminine, masculine, or androgynous features.
A cuntboy (breasts + penis) can have feminine, masculine, or androgynous features.

And before the argument about "we tag male/female based on features other than genitals" gets made: that's fall-back to avoid having ambiguous_gender on almost every non-nude image. Male/female are the default assumed genders/sexes when genitals aren't obvious. Tagging dickgirl/cuntboy/herm absolutely require ability to visually tell what genitals they have. Based on that simple fact, I really don't see any tags working for this that try to ignore defining them by what sexual features they possess.

*edit* seems there is some oddity, why is manly a tag but not womanly, and why is it not listed in the tomboy or girly wiki? This is the first time i have ever noticed it.

Can you be simpler with that list, though? Kinda brain dead at the moment, can't tell if you are making a point against or for this, and don't know if you are saying to tag stuff like manly and (in your words) androgynous with man, instead of just girly (should it apply). Recently woke up from dreamless sleep, so blame lethargy.

Here can be a way to make it work:

Disambiguate masculine, and describe how it applies to manly, tomboy, and masculine_intersex. Rinse and repeat for feminine, and make the tag womanly for it.

manly, womanly, girly, tomboy, and possibly androgynous (neither for nor against ATM) are secondary body traits, instead of type, and keep body types for all gender tags we have, making dickgirl and cuntboy into intersex_feminine and intersex_masculine, respectively. From there, any time an argument arises about girly/tomboy and the supposed gender occurs, we could just specify that it is the trait the body has, and not the type of the body. Other traits are tagged, like muscular, athletic, slightly_chubby, etc. etc., and it sometimes needs to be clarified because muscles have made genders before (heavy emphasis on made, not changed or anything else), so we may also want to put better definitions in place.

This would be better as an alternate topic, if we want to have a proper discussion. Otherwise, that is my current idea.

Siral_Exan said:
why is manly a tag but not womanly, and why is it not listed in the tomboy or girly wiki? This is the first time i have ever noticed it.

Because manly and girly are considered opposites of each other. Tomboy refer to how a female character behave, not looks. Manly and girly refer mostly to looks. If you want to make womanly the female equivalent to manly, the closest male equivalent to girly I know of would be boyish.

BlueDingo said:
Because manly and girly are considered opposites of each other. Tomboy refer to how a female character behave, not looks. Manly and femboy refer mostly to looks. If you want to make womanly the female equivalent to manly, the closest male equivalent to girly I know of would be boyish.

Maybe I should reiterate: was/is there no other tag to balance out the lack of feminine body on a female or etc.? Tomboy applies in reverse, it is the masculine for females, as girly is the feminine for males. Another tag for females is what is missing, and boyish is better off as tomboy (currently shown, otherwise it shouldn't have been used).

Manly is a direct synonym of masculine. (Feminine/womanly ditto.)

Just saying that we shouldn't go into a situation where we are putting two opposite descriptors on one character. Redefining one of the terms solely for this site is just going to cause mass confusion and a probable proportionate amount of mistagging.