Not too long ago in IRC, we had discussion about tagging controllers. Essentially it boiled down that this post shouldn't have Wii U tagged, because the console itself isn't in the post. Even though the controller can be easily distinguished to be Wii U Pro Controller.

(Also Nintendo Pro Controller is awful, awful tag when there's at least 3 differend Nintendo Pro Controllers and they are scattered between differend nintendo consoles)

post #991579

I can understand the idea behind it, but especially current generation of consoles and gaming peripherals, they are pretty distinguishable to be connected into single console - even if the console itself can't be seen. Also as almost all peripheral are wireless these days, I'm pretty sure many do not include the console in images in the first place.

For example this image, even though there's no PS4 in it, you can clearly distinguish PS4 user interface as well as Dualshock 4 controller on it. Following is also tagged as PS4 without console showing.

post #809998

Actually, Playstation_4 is full of images where console isn't showing anywhere.

So should we start tagging every single controller variation? Or in general, how am I supposed to tag images which have clearly single consoles peripheral, but no console itself visible? My first instinct when trying to search for controllers of specific console would be to search with console tag :|

We should probably list the ones that are tagged now. Hold on...

gamecube_controller
n64_controller
nes_controller/nintendo_controller
nes_zapper/zapper
nintendo_pro_controller
power_glove
steam_controller
snes_controller
playstation_controller
wii_fit_board was a character tag for some reason... Fixed now.
wii_nunchuk
wii_remote
wiiu_gamepad
xbox_controller (Seems to be no distinction between which xbox's controller)

I've probably missed some.

Now for the topic: It depends on how we want to approach this. We can either have a console name (I'll use Wii from here on) for everything wii-related and tag the console itself as wii_console, or use wii for the console itself and only tag it if the console is visible.

post #931990 post #968426

Using method 1, example 1 would have a wii_console tag because the console is visible while example 2 would not. Both would have a wii tag.

Using method 2, example 1 would have a wii tag because the console is visible while example 2 would not.

Both examples contain a wii_remote so obviously that gets tagged.

BlueDingo said:
We should probably list the ones that are tagged now. Hold on...

*controller list*

I've probably missed some.

Now for the topic: It depends on how we want to approach this. We can either have a console name (I'll use Wii from here on) for everything wii-related and tag the console itself as wii_console, or use wii for the console itself and only tag it if the console is visible.

Looking trough these all I can think of is that the whole thing is total mess right now.

Most of the tags only having 1-3 posts to begin with and some being way too vague like nintendo_controller, playstation_controller and xbox_controller. Most of the posts right now are still simply tagged with console + game_controller. Some even being misstagged, like switch dog showing on wii related tags.

Tagging everything under base console, then tagging peripherals and console itself seperately would make it much harder for users to misstag anything and also easier to add in tags required. In my mind at least, it would make it much easier to simply tag Wii and then just generig tags like console and game controller on top. This would also make it so that there wouldn't be thousand differend tags for every single consoles several differend peripherals and available controllers. Would also make it much easier to search just images which has any console in it.

Other way to approach feels like keeping the console tags intact and only use them when console is visible, then for example if image has playstation move, it would get: game_controller (+ playstation_controller) + playstation_move
This would actually make it easier to search single console companys controllers only, but I feel like it wouldn't justify the amount of tags and possible misstags it makes, especially when something like playstation move could be really rarely used in images to begin with.

Another issue is when controllers from one console work on another. There's no guarantee that a gamecube controller is connected to a gamecube (wii has backwards compatibility with GameCube controllers and accessories) or any console at all for that matter.

BlueDingo said:
Another issue is when controllers from one console work on another. There's no guarantee that a gamecube controller is connected to a gamecube (wii has backwards compatibility with GameCube controllers and accessories) or any console at all for that matter.

Simply tag it for what the original hardware for the controller was? In real life even if you have gamecube controller on Wii, you are either playing gamecube games, brawl or mario kart. In tagging, if console is not visible, it really doesn't matter either way and it even says it on the name: gamecube controller.

So basically handle controllers for platform where they were initially introduced. So Wiimote is for Wii, even if you can use it for Wii U. Altough in there, how would it be handled if only wiimote and gamepad were on the image, they can't be playing both at the same time... And would Steam_Controller mean that computer should be tagged?

E: Also VR headsets should be talked about as well, as there are already tons of pictures, most tagged simply vr

E2: Also, would it hurt to have both wii and wii u tagged in post, if this kind of tagging was in place?

I feel that having tags that apply to the console itself would be more accurate since a controllers can be by themselves and disconnected.

post #694309

The question is, should we use the console name (wii) or a *_console tag (wii_console) for the console?

BlueDingo said:
The question is, should we use the console name (wii) or a *_console tag (wii_console) for the console?

I would say just console. playstation_4 console would be exactly the same as playstation_4_console, but if console is generic tag, you can use it to search any consoles. And you can tag post without console even if they aren't connected anywhere. Or maybe use something like disconnected_controller for those kind of images.

post #997049
Playstation_4 console game_controller

post #1000759
playstation_4 console

post #1032346
playstation_4 game_controller

post #1079311
playstation_4

As you can see with last one, console not being in image at all shouldn't be an issue, because you can still have stuff that's related to it directly. Nintendo Switch dog being prime example.

That could work, though game_console would be more accurate as console can refer to several things.

Edit: Cool, people are talking about me behind my back.

BlueDingo said:
That could work, though game_console would be more accurate as console can refer to several things.

Edit: Cool, people are talking about me behind my back.

That makes sense, I can think of several things to get confused with just console and controller already has game_ prefix.

Also don't take it as talking about you behind back. It was more of about talking about your opinions and solutions on the matter, which could always have really valid reasons behind it which I didn't see myself initially. As I haven't actually driven this kind of stuff forward, makes it easier to have someone to bounce arguments, instead of thinking that what I'm thinking is perfect.

But if going by my last example, it would also be really easy to tag posts as most already have one or two of these tags applied to them. I could easily start modifying wiki towards this and tagging posts accordingly if this seems fine.

Mario69 said:
Also don't take it as talking about you behind back. It was more of about talking about your opinions and solutions on the matter, which could always have really valid reasons behind it which I didn't see myself initially. As I haven't actually driven this kind of stuff forward, makes it easier to have someone to bounce arguments, instead of thinking that what I'm thinking is perfect.

I know, I read the conversation. I have a habit of making things sound worse than they are, usually in jest, so don't take it too seriously.

Mario69 said:
But if going by my last example, it would also be really easy to tag posts as most already have one or two of these tags applied to them. I could easily start modifying wiki towards this and tagging posts accordingly if this seems fine.

Sounds good enough to me.

We're still keeping the names of each controller, right? wii_remote, nes_controller, etc.

BlueDingo said:
I know, I read the conversation. I have a habit of making things sound worse than they are, usually in jest, so don't take it too seriously.

Sounds good enough to me.

We're still keeping the names of each controller, right? wii_remote, nes_controller, etc.

As long as no hard feelings :3

These do seem like they are really inconsistant.
Because some controllers aren't tagged at all, some randomly with one or two posts, some like wiimote consistantly (because obvious joke value, easy to draw, sex toy usage, popularity, etc.), then some like playstation and xbox controllers are under umbrella tag consisting at least three differend consoles even with clear distinguishable features.

I'm not againts keeping them, but if going by the example I gave before, it feels like aliasing them to simply for console they are from (wii_remote -> wii) would make things more consistant and easier. User search for wii_remote, that gets wii results which in theory should contain mostly wiimotes and they can specify they want the wiimote with game_controller tag or excluding console.

Wii is actually most frustrating of all, because of so many variations in controllers (balance board, classic controller, classic controller pro, nunchuck, racing wheel, etc.) and compatibility with wii u. Another one being PS move, which is now more prominant with PS4 even being PS3 controller. So these are some edge cases which might either require their own tags or further thinking.

Other consoles have different controllers, too. NES has the nes_controller, the zapper, power_glove and several others. SNES has snes_controller, super_scope and some others.

I can give a +1 to the wii_console type tags. We could then tag the console's name without console for both the consoles and the controllers, while keeping our actual console posts only to consoles.

So basically:

• wii
• wii_console
• wii_remote
• wii_nunchuk
• wii_fit_board
• etc.
• ps4
• ps4_console
• ps4_controller
• etc.
• etc.
• etc.

Implicate *_console -> game_console just like the controllers.

Furrin_Gok said:
I can give a +1 to the wii_console type tags. We could then tag the console's name without console for both the consoles and the controllers, while keeping our actual console posts only to consoles.

So that we then have: Wii, Wii_console and game_console? That would sound like the best approach.

BlueDingo said:
So basically:

• wii
• wii_console
• wii_remote
• wii_nunchuk
• wii_fit_board
• etc.
• ps4
• ps4_console
• ps4_controller
• etc.
• etc.
• etc.

Implicate *_console -> game_console just like the controllers.

So essentially throw away *_controller if console has more than 1-2 common controller variations and/or controller is more prominantly known by its own name? Or should we go one tag further:

• wii
• wii_console (implicates game_console)
• wii_controller (implicates game_controller)
• wii_remote (implicates wii_controller)
• wii_nunchuk (implicates wii_controller)
• wii_fit_board (implicates wii_controller)

Because at that point why not tag ps4_controller as Dualshock_4?

If the standard controller doesn't have a name, use *_controller because you can't really call it anything else.

If the console only has one controller, you can get away with *_controller but it's probably better to name it if possible.

That implication tree would allow people to find any controller for a specific console without having to remember the names of any of them. Won't work perfectly if *_controller is the name of one of those controllers but I see more good than bad. +1

Another thing: Wii Wheel and Wii Zapper, I'm not sure if they should be tagged as controllers as they are actually plastic mounts for a controller.

So in that sense, maybe xbox/playstation umbrella terms could also work pretty well:

• playstation_3
• playstation_3_console
• playstation_4
• playstation_4_console
• playstation_controller
• playstation_move
• move_navigation_controller
• dualshock_3
• dualshock_4 (and seperate tags for v1 and v2 of the contro... nah, kidding)

• xbox_360
• xbox_360_console
• xbox_one
• xbox_one_console
• xbox_controller
• kinect
• xbox_360_controller
• xbox_one_controller
• xbox_elite_controller

This way if post has only e.g. face buttons showing, it's still possible to tag it as playstation_controller without referring to specifics. Or user knowing they saw face buttons of playstation controller searching with that tag.

Also one problem I'm still seeing if uploaders are tagging posts with just xbox or playstation because the post has something from any console variation, even if those tags would be reserved for first consoles out. (like in example image below) Or should those also be umbrella terms and refer first consoles as xbox_original and playstation_1?

Also with something like kinect, there's actually post where it's clear it's there as well as xbox 360, both being main thing about the post, but neither are shown:
post #141412

Mario69 said:

Also one problem I'm still seeing if uploaders are tagging posts with just xbox or playstation because the post has something from any console variation, even if those tags would be reserved for first consoles out. (like in example image below) Or should those also be umbrella terms and refer first consoles as xbox_original and playstation_1?

Using xbox_original and playstation_1 would remove ambiguity. Some disambiguation info for the xbox and playstation will help with clearing up mistags.

Mario69 said:
Also with something like kinect, there's actually post where it's clear it's there as well as xbox 360, both being main thing about the post, but neither are shown:
post #141412

Good question. You can see Kinect on the TV screen but not the device... Can having its interface displayed on a screen be considered hard enough evidence of the device's presence if you can't see the device itself?

• If yes, home screens could imply the existence of a functioning console, provided multiple consoles don't have the same one and it can be easily distinguished.
• If no, we'd have to disregard the contents of the screen.

BlueDingo said:
Good question. You can see Kinect on the TV screen but not the device... Can having its interface displayed on a screen be considered hard enough evidence of the device's presence if you can't see the device itself?

• If yes, home screens could imply the existence of a functioning console, provided multiple consoles don't have the same one and it can be easily distinguished.
• If no, we'd have to disregard the contents of the screen.

Would actually want to have some feedback on this, because going back to original example:
post #809998

There's clearly functioning PS4 in the image and I don't think assuming that is wrong. They could have weird HTPC screensaver could be another possibility.

Console tag, no, but the system tag, yes.

Furrin_Gok said:
Console tag, no, but the system tag, yes.

How would you tag it then if image clearly has console, but it's made to look as generic as possible? Really similar to how some stuff unde game_controller is:
post #1102565

Console tag is infact already used because of this, so to me it makes sense to disambiguating it to seperate gaming consoles and of course then include all possible game consoles.
post #506103 post #882699 post #501576 post #464798
console -nintendo -sony -microsoft

Mario69 said:
How would you tag it then if image clearly has console, but it's made to look as generic as possible? Really similar to how some stuff unde game_controller is:
post #1102565

game_console. You can't go any further if you can't identify it.

BlueDingo said:
game_console. You can't go any further if you can't identify it.

Is there a reason to specify "game"?

Furrin_Gok said:
Is there a reason to specify "game"?

post #132788 post #216983 post #319494

We should consider making tag_group:video_games for all video game related stuff: Consoles, controllers, peripherals, brand names, etc.

BlueDingo said:
We should consider making tag_group:video_games for all video game related stuff: Consoles, controllers, peripherals, brand names, etc.

I tried to start the page.

Also noticed there is inconsistancy with tagging in general. Something like classic 8-bit nintendo is used with all nintendo, nes and nintendo entertainment system with no aliases or implications anywhere. Then something like super_nintendo_entertainment_system isn't being used while snes aliases to super_nintendo.

Also need to get list of needed aliases and implications.

We can't use nintendo because that's a copyright. I'd say the shorter names should be aliased to the full names.

I recommend not using section code on the tag group. It's too fiddly having to expand/collapse each section and you can't use ctrl+f text in collapsed sections. A table of contents would help users jump to specific parts of the page instead of scrolling to it. I can implement these if you want.

A Sega section is needed, and possibly an Atari section.

I do have some other things to do constantly, so if you can help in any way, go ahead. Would've actually liked if someone else would have given some feedback or help as well.

I'm no retro gamer, so sega and atari are bit more unknown territory for me.

Once the list is complete, they all need to be implicated like following:
Dualshock_3 -> playstation_3 and playstation_controller -> game_controller
Playstation_3_console -> game_console and playstation_3

Alias console -> console_(disambiguation)

BlueDingo said:
We can't use nintendo because that's a copyright. I'd say the shorter names should be aliased to the full names.

NES and SNES should be fine. That's how they're usually written anyway.

Genjar said:
NES and SNES should be fine. That's how they're usually written anyway.

SNES is aliased to Super Nintendo. There's also a Nintendo Entertainment System tag.

Furrin_Gok said:
There's also a Nintendo Entertainment System tag.

It's rarely if ever called that, though. To most folks it's just NES or Nintendo, and since Nintendo can't be used I'd go with NES as the main tag for that one.

Genjar said:
It's rarely if ever called that, though. To most folks it's just NES or Nintendo, and since Nintendo can't be used I'd go with NES as the main tag for that one.

NES is short for Nintendo Entertainment System, though. That's why some people, rare as it may be, used that tag instead. What I'm bringing it up for is to say there needs to be an alias between the two.

Funny how little extra time there is to spare. Created couple wiki articles and made them to reflect the changes outlined in the tag group.
Wii_U, Steam_Controller, Steam_(software), Playstation_4 and Playstation_3.
(shoutout to most useful wiki article ever created: https://e621.net/wiki/show/wii_u?version=1)

Also as per Wii U article, I hope I am making right call, but if there is differend controller peripherals visible, those should still all be tagged by their original platform. So gamecube_controller is gamecube and Wii_remote is wii, even if all are playing Wii U or PC game. It would simply be tagged with gamecube, wii and wii_u if this happens.

Also writing down the required implications to be done:
<console>_controller -> <copyright>, <copyright>_controller and game_controller
<console>_console -> <copyright> and game_console

Aliases needed:
nes -> nintendo_entertainment_system (nes and snes can still be discussed, as long as they are aliased one way or another makes posts to be under same tag at least)
ps4_controller -> dualshock_4
ps3_controller -> dualshock_3
3ds -> nintendo_3ds which is right now aliased another way around, which makes less sense.