Hi, new to posting here, hope this is in the right section and isn't a pointless question...

I uploaded this image earlier today:
post #1911504

As you can see, its primary focus is the anthro rat (a Skaven), but it also contains a tiny feral rat, atop the Skaven's staff. To me, the tiny feral rat seems pretty inconsequential compared to the Skaven, and as such wouldn't count as a "character", so much an added element of detail. I tagged it as solo, but what are other people's opinions on it? And is there a precedent for tagging this sort of thing?

I'm aware of the ambient_X tags, like ambient_bat and ambient_bird, but given there was no ambient_rat tag I wasn't sure if it was applicable here or if the current set of ambient_X tags is set, as I imagine it would be undesirable to have too many ambient_ tags.

Anyway, I'd love to hear other people's input on the ruling of solo or duo here, and other relevant discussion.

duo, solo_focus

Ah, solo_focus slipped my mind, but that would make sense. Thanks for pointing that out!

Versperus said:
duo, solo_focus

That rat seems pretty ambient to me, don't we consider it solo in that case?

Furrin_Gok said:
That rat seems pretty ambient to me, don't we consider it solo in that case?

it appears to have purpose in the image as more than a decoration, they even appear to be sharing eye_contact

Versperus said:
it appears to have purpose in the image as more than a decoration, they even appear to be sharing eye_contact

It looks to me like the Skaven is looking straight forward, not up at the rat.

Furrin_Gok said:
It looks to me like the Skaven is looking straight forward, not up at the rat.

face forward, eyes angled up

At first, I thought that it should be tagged with solo and ambient_rat as well, but with closer inspection the Skaven is indeed looking at the rat on his staff albeit slightly.

Normally how I would tag thing is that if the second character is actively participating in the image, it would be considered as a second character (and therefore duo & solo_focus). However, if the character is just being there to add in ambiance, it would be tagged as ambient_*.

For example, post #1854951

TheGreatWolfgang said:
At first, I thought that it should be tagged with solo and ambient_rat as well, but with closer inspection the Skaven is indeed looking at the rat on his staff albeit slightly.

Normally how I would tag thing is that if the second character is actively participating in the image, it would be considered as a second character (and therefore duo & solo_focus). However, if the character is just being there to add in ambiance, it would be tagged as ambient_*.

For example, post #1854951

https://e621.net/wiki/show?title=ambient_bird
that's tagged wrong in accordance to the wiki it should be tagged as group, not to mention those feral birds are quite obviously apart and integral to the image.

post #1882960
thems be ambient birds, someone should add example images to the wiki

Versperus said:
https://e621.net/wiki/show?title=ambient_bird
that's tagged wrong in accordance to the wiki it should be tagged as group, not to mention those feral birds are quite obviously apart and integral to the image.

post #1882960
thems be ambient birds, someone should add example images to the wiki

Huh, didn't notice that last part on the wiki when the ambient_* tags were being implemented. Thanks for clarifying.

TheGreatWolfgang said:
Huh, didn't notice that last part on the wiki when the ambient_* tags were being implemented. Thanks for clarifying.

ya buddy! I also added in a few images for other people that fit the description of the tag

Versperus said:
ya buddy! I also added in a few images for other people that fit the description of the tag

Going through some of my posts for ambient_*, this seem to be tagged with ambient_jellyfish/sealife & group (by an admin nonetheless).

post #707549

However, based on how the wiki puts it, this post should just be tagged with jellyfish.
It raises the question though as to the purpose of the ambient tags, shouldn't they be used in instances where the character is not an active participant (i.e. being interacted with/touched)?

How is one to find a post with a genuine jellyfish character and not run across this specific post?

Wait so has it like... changed recently that living beings in image won't count in character count tagging if they are not actively participating to the scene? Because
1) this seems horribly subjective and there is a whole lot of blurred lines over here
2) I have reported several cases of people tagging solo on pics with ambient animals, and admins always agreed that it should not be tagged as solo
3) This seems to kind of go against everything admins have said over here

hiekkapillu said:
Wait so has it like... changed recently that living beings in image won't count in character count tagging if they are not actively participating to the scene? Because
1) this seems horribly subjective and there is a whole lot of blurred lines over here
2) I have reported several cases of people tagging solo on pics with ambient animals, and admins always agreed that it should not be tagged as solo
3) This seems to kind of go against everything admins have said over here

I've seen a lot of debate on it in the tag discussion on discord, personally I can't find my self tagging solo on pics with ambient animals due to the same mentality, (lest I legit miss said animals in the image) but I think it's cropping up partially due to the confusion with tagging solo or duo per scene in posts, and whether dead things count as characters to be tagged. Some thing that have been brought to the table in there have really hurt my head as far as points to be made.

(granted if I can't figure out the grouping tags in a post I'll just leave them alone)

hiekkapillu said:
Wait so has it like... changed recently that living beings in image won't count in character count tagging if they are not actively participating to the scene? Because
1) this seems horribly subjective and there is a whole lot of blurred lines over here
2) I have reported several cases of people tagging solo on pics with ambient animals, and admins always agreed that it should not be tagged as solo
3) This seems to kind of go against everything admins have said over here

I agree that what is and isn't a "character" worth tagging is very subjective, this is especially evident when you look at various posts tagged with ambient_*, as many of them seem to discount the ambient creatures as characters, while some do not.

What mostly drove me to ask this question in the first place was this fact,combined with the fact that the wiki page for ambient_* seems to emphasize the un-importance of the ambient creatures to the piece as a whole and does not specify if they should be considered for group tagging.

In hindsight, it was probably wrong of me to assume that simply not mentioning group tagging might have implied that they didn't count, but (again, subjectively), pointing something out as ambient says to me that it isn't meant to be considered a "character", as per the solo/duo/group wiki pages. If the tag wasn't meant to reflect a different kind of bird, for example, than a normal bird, then why not just tag bird? And maybe, just add "ambient_creature" instead of specifying the kind of animal?

Anyway, that's just my two cents. If nothing else, maybe a clarification should be added to one of the relevant wiki pages. Having skimmed that old thread you linked, it does appear the admins take the stance that ambient creatures ARE characters, and it should probably be noted for people with similar mindsets to my own.