So... it turns out, "hermaphrodite" as a term to refer to sapient beings is actually thought of as outdated at best, a slur against actual intersex people at worst.

Idk what we should change it to, but we should probably change it to *something* other than "herm", the same way we got rid of the cboy/dgirl tags.

Lunamann said:
So... it turns out, "hermaphrodite" as a term to refer to sapient beings is actually thought of as outdated at best, a slur against actual intersex people at worst.

Idk what we should change it to, but we should probably change it to *something* other than "herm", the same way we got rid of the cboy/dgirl tags.

Literally nothing wrong with "hermaphrodite". It's a biological term, and isn't a slur

Lunamann said:
So... it turns out, "hermaphrodite" as a term to refer to sapient beings is actually thought of as outdated at best, a slur against actual intersex people at worst.

Idk what we should change it to, but we should probably change it to *something* other than "herm", the same way we got rid of the cboy/dgirl tags.

For some background, I looked this up. This appears to stem from a divergence in the meaning of the term surrounding humans, where it was being applied to mean: Any non standard sexual configuration or attributes. Which is roughly, but not exactly what "intersex" is used for now, and people advocate for the use of "intersex" among humans. Hermaphrodite retains its use among plants and animals.

On e621, we only apply the tag on a character that has both male and female reproductive organs visible(and assumed to be functional), which falls in line with the context of "true hermaphrodite," a condition that is not generally seen within humans. It is not applied to any character with non standard sexual traits, so the usage on the site doesn't fall within the context of what people consider it a slur for, and why the term intersex replaced it.

Lunamann said:
So... it turns out, "hermaphrodite" as a term to refer to sapient beings is actually thought of as outdated at best, a slur against actual intersex people at worst.

Idk what we should change it to, but we should probably change it to *something* other than "herm", the same way we got rid of the cboy/dgirl tags.

It is not a slur against intersex people. Hermaphrodites are people with both male and female genitalia, usually only having one or the other actually working.

I've seen what you're talking about, how some trans people are saying hermaphrodite was just a term to call trans people in the past, but this is such a lie. Do some research and you will see that hermaphrodites are naturally born. They do not go through sex change, though they may go through surgery to remove one of the genitalia as to become the sex/gender that they fully want to be, or their parents do it for them.

No.
We changed cuntboy and dickgirl to scientific terms because of their vulgarity(not because of pressure from SJWs). Hermaphrodite is a scientific term, originating from the Greek language(Originating from the name "Hermaphroditus", the "son" of the Greek god Hermes and the goddess Aphrodite).

Goldforest youre referring to intersex individuals with that last point which is now a considerably condemned destructive surgery that is being banned in sveral countries.

A hermaphrodite technically simply refers to any creature/plant capable of performing self or cross pollination/insemination thereby requiring that the parts of the creature include both the ovary component and testicle component of the sexual gonad structure. This typically also means that that being has functional receptical (vulva and vagina) and applicator (penis) parts at the same time in addition to those features.

Since humans can not have both sexual gonads at the same time (and even if they could they would not function at the same time) humans and animals that are higher animals (vertebrates) cannot be Hermaphrodites at all.

Further, @Mephistopholes and @GoldForest historically hermaphrodite WAS used as an anti trans and anti intersex pejorative term.

So much so that it even bled into "family friendly" pop culture such as Wierd Al's "Albuquerque"

'Just as I suspected it was a big fat hermaphrodite with a flock of seagulls haircut and only one nostril, man I hate it when Im right'

The implication in the song being that "he" (the hermaphrodite) is still a man/he but has non traditional gender characteristics.

So while I agree this word WAS and still is a slur... its a bit more of a grey area than something like CBoy and DGirl were.

In furry fandom, specifically having both sets of parts working is a trait that several artists fursonas have and we literally have no other word, other than intersex, to denote beings with both parts at once.

Personally I wouldnt lose sleep if the tag were lost in favour of using only intersex as among furries I feel its a personally meaningless distinction.

But its an important one to some people. So I also dont see any reason against keeping it for that reason alone.

Its seen as a slur against historically both the trans and more importantly and especially against the intersex community the same way that traditionally "dumb" referred to mutes or other words such as "retarded" are no longer acceptable for use in medical vernacular. As a result Id love to see what op has to suggest personally and feel the best option here would be to alias it away Into intersex. As thats what happened in the medical community.

There was a time when having clitoromegaly was reason to call a child a hermaphrodite and the implication was that they needed to have it reduced to be "normal" in gender presentation.

Its a word that carries a lot of weight and negative history even if it wasnt created or originally used as a pejorative. So I sympathise deeply with those who feel it should be changed.

@Chaser Hermaphrodite is not considered an acceptable medical term anymore by nearly any scientific community.

Post facto tho? Get rid of maleherm that shit stupid.

Let's just refer to everyone as 'it' and scream "sexist!" at anyone who uses a remotely gender-related term.

No?

Well then, we can't keep banning every word that someone considers offensive. We're gonna run out of words!!!! D:

Edit:

Hermaphrodite is not considered an acceptable medical term anymore by nearly any scientific community.

Ffs >.<

MyNameIsOver20charac said:
Let's just refer to everyone as 'it' and scream "sexist!" at anyone who uses a remotely gender-related term.

No?

Well then, we can't keep banning every word that someone considers offensive. We're gonna run out of words!!!! D:

Edit:
Ffs >.<

The currently acceptable terms are intersex and "bisexual" which we cannot use for obvious reasons.

Also you don't need to strawman it really doesnt help your position.

Demesejha said:
The currently acceptable terms are intersex and "bisexual" which we cannot use for obvious reasons.

Also you don't need to strawman it really doesnt help your position.

Welp, learned a new word :3 However, I don't think I am strawmanning, because we just got rid of the last word that specifies physical gender variations rather than mental ones.

Demesejha said:
The currently acceptable terms are intersex and "bisexual" which we cannot use for obvious reasons.

Also you don't need to strawman it really doesnt help your position.

Bisexual is someonhe who likes both sides. You can't even get that right.

Pretty sure that colours a lot of you other opinions.

CamKitty said:
Bisexual is someonhe who likes both sides. You can't even get that right.

Pretty sure that colours a lot of you other opinions.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bisexual

"Definition of bisexual
1a : possessing characters of both sexes and especially both male and female reproductive structures : HERMAPHRODITIC
bisexual flowers"

https://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=10794

"In physical biology, the term "bisexual" refers to an individual who was born with gonadal tissue of both sexes (that, both testicular and ovarian tissue). Also termed a true hermaphrodite."

https://www.britannica.com/science/bisexuality-biology
"Bisexuality, in biology, the condition of an organism capable of producing both male and female gametes (sex cells). In plants and microorganisms, this is often referred to as monoecism. In multicellular animals, bisexuality is usually called hermaphroditism (q.v.)."

Do some basic research before calling someone out thanks.

This has been the case for years now.

Hermaphroditism is just an outdated term that the general public has not caught up on yet.

Theres a reason why I said we can't use Bisexual for obvious reasons, but apparently you didn't read that and just jumped to attack without thinking.

Demesejha said:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bisexual

"Definition of bisexual
1a : possessing characters of both sexes and especially both male and female reproductive structures : HERMAPHRODITIC
bisexual flowers"

https://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=10794

"In physical biology, the term "bisexual" refers to an individual who was born with gonadal tissue of both sexes (that, both testicular and ovarian tissue). Also termed a true hermaphrodite."

https://www.britannica.com/science/bisexuality-biology
"Bisexuality, in biology, the condition of an organism capable of producing both male and female gametes (sex cells). In plants and microorganisms, this is often referred to as monoecism. In multicellular animals, bisexuality is usually called hermaphroditism (q.v.)."

Do some basic research before calling someone out thanks.

This has been the case for years now.

Hermaphroditism is just an outdated term that the general public has not caught up on yet.

Theres a reason why I said we can't use Bisexual for obvious reasons, but apparently you didn't read that and just jumped to attack without thinking.

Missed the b definition huh

CamKitty said:
Missed the b definition huh

Maybe instead of jumping down someone's throat the moment you think they said something wrong, you'd be better served by giving people the benefit of the doubt.

Like obviously Demesejha is very invested in this topic, and knows quite a bit about the history of different words. Do you really think someone with that much investment would be ignorant of the more common definition of the word bisexual, especially when bisexual is a very common word in general?

Everything about the context of this situation should have led you to think "huh, maybe they know something I don't" but instead of that, you immediately went to "nope, you're wrong."

I thought at first that you were admitting error with your statement here (as in, "oh, I missed that part of the definition), which I would have respected you for, at least, but now I see that you are still acting as though Demesejha missed the common-usage definition, which is clearly and obviously not the case.

CamKitty, you are in the wrong here. So blatantly and unambiguously so, in fact, that the fact you can't admit to it makes me lose almost all respect for you and your ability to actually engage in a reasonable discussion. Maybe your inability to admit error is what colors a lot of your other opinions.

---

On the topic at hand, the usage of herm / hermaphrodite on this site doesn't particularly bother me, because as mentioned, the term does have legitimate application for many animals, and considering the focus of this site as a whole, it seems like a reasonable fit.

Yes, the term has been used as a slur against intersex people, which is unfortunate, but there really isn't a term that could replace it without those connotations, which retains all the advantages of the term hermaphrodite. This was obviously not the case for the precursors to andromorph and gynomorph.

Lunamann said:
So... it turns out, "hermaphrodite" as a term to refer to sapient beings is actually thought of as outdated at best, a slur against actual intersex people at worst.

You guys got enough warnings regarding cuntboys and dickgirls, yet went ahead and replaced those as "vulgar".

Congrats, grab your popcorn, another 20+ pages of totally-not-SJW ramblings incoming.
This week's word to be offended by is "hermaphrodite".

Clawdragons said:

On the topic at hand, the usage of herm / hermaphrodite on this site doesn't particularly bother me, because as mentioned, the term does have legitimate application for many animals, and considering the focus of this site as a whole, it seems like a reasonable fit.

Yes, the term has been used as a slur against intersex people, which is unfortunate, but there really isn't a term that could replace it without those connotations, which retains all the advantages of the term hermaphrodite. This was obviously not the case for the precursors to andromorph and gynomorph.

Thats, my general feeling. While it probably would be a nice idea to remove the term the main issue is that unlike the prior discussion I cant really think of any polite or nice way to replace it, not to mention in the case of specifically furries there's a place for that word.

While there could be a case made for wiping out the term Herm, and I may even support it, I am definitely not the person to make that argument as that has a lot of nuance that I dont feel I am prepared or educated enough to tackle.

However one topic I will bring up, that I do feel I am able to strongly stand behind, is that the term maleherm does not need to exist as it applies a gender codifier to a, by its very definition non binarist descriptor, and carries the implication that Herm on its own is a female descriptor tag. Though if there is a legitimate reason for it to exist, I may retract that statement.

Demesejha said:
Personally I wouldnt lose sleep if the tag were lost in favour of using only intersex as among furries I feel its a personally meaningless distinction.

As a result Id love to see what op has to suggest personally and feel the best option here would be to alias it away Into intersex.

Post facto tho? Get rid of maleherm that shit stupid.

So now that the admins have put the possibility of bad gender tag renames on the table, the people who pushed for that are gonna go for outright removal of the ability to tag body types they don't like. Cool.

Demesejha said:
However one topic I will bring up, that I do feel I am able to strongly stand behind, is that the term maleherm does not need to exist as it applies a gender codifier to a, by its very definition non binarist descriptor, and carries the implication that Herm on its own is a female descriptor tag. Though if there is a legitimate reason for it to exist, I may retract that statement.

Because artists usually draw herm characters as "female with extra bits" or "male with extra bits", resulting in two major distinctive subtypes. This results in two major distinct subtypes, which each should have their own tag for purposes of searching and blacklisting, which is literally the only legitimate reason for tags to exist on this site.