Implicating mother_and_daughter → mother_and_child
Link to implication

Related implications:

Mother_and_daughter -> parent_and_daughter
Mother_and_son -> mother_and_child
Mother_and_son -> parent_and_son

father_and_daughter -> father_and_child
father_and_daughter -> parent_and_daughter
father_and_son -> father_and_child
father_and_son -> parent_and_son

mother_and_child, father_and_child,
parent_and_son, parent_and_daughter -> parent_and_child

Edit:

Related aliases:

mother -> mother_and_child
father -> father_and_child

daughter -> parent_and_daughter
son -> parent_and_son
parent -> parent_and_child

Reason:

According to wikis a parent should never be tagged without at least one of their offspring, and a daughter/son never without atleast one parent. Therefore the above tags have the same meaning, and the aliased to make the meaning clearer.

MyNameIsOver20charac said:
Implicating mother_and_daughter → mother_and_child
Link to implication

Related implications:

Mother_and_daughter -> parent_and_daughter
Mother_and_son -> mother_and_child
Mother_and_son -> parent_and_son

father_and_daughter -> father_and_child
father_and_daughter -> parent_and_daughter
father_and_son -> father_and_child
father_and_son -> parent_and_son

mother_and_child, father_and_child,
parent_and_son, parent_and_daughter -> parent_and_child

Edit:

Related aliases:

mother -> mother_and_child
father -> father_and_child

daughter -> parent_and_daughter
son -> parent_and_son
parent -> parent_and_child

Reason:

According to wikis a parent should never be tagged without at least one of their offspring, and a daughter/son never without atleast one parent. Therefore the above tags have the same meaning, and the aliased to make the meaning clearer.

the tags would have to be cleaned first

kamimatsu said:
the tags would have to be cleaned first

Absolutely this. I keep a tab open of a very specific search so I can do my best to prevent new 'mother/father' images from being uploaded that have no signs of said character being an actual parent. But there's still 70+ pages of mistagged art in that same search and it's a pretty daunting task.

kamimatsu said:
the tags would have to be cleaned first

28 pages of mother solo agrees. I'll help a bit when I get my computer back.

Okay, well, let's talk about which tags need to be cleaned out, and what changes need to be done. If we make a clear battle plan, we can work on it in a group as opposed to just having to stare around hopefully for someone who wants to swoop in and do all the changes themselves.

NOTE: "child" is the tag for characters between 3-12!

Other thoughts: there are no intersex characters represented here. --minus through 'parent_and_child'

So, my first impulse is that, wow, mother/father/parent/daughter/son are pretty heavily tagged.. I"m glad you suggested aliasing them away, because that's good! :)

For the moment, I'm gonna assume that the *_and_* tags are mostly correct, and focus on the family-member tags.

mother solo should have no results, yet I have something like 2000 posts, which mostly look like "a mother aged character" or "a character who is a mother" ... there's a few oddballs though--a woman giving birth,a bird looking happily at an egg, a character exchanging dialog with an offscreen mother... or visversa.. some multi-iamge pages, etc... but a looottt of them loook like they don't apply.

So

Important note:

Tags like father_and_son currently imply both father and son .. and father implies parent.. so while tidying the above tags, make sure you remove any father_and_son-styled tags, as well as the father and son and parent tags. :)

That seems like a good first step. I'm about out of time for the afternoon, so I"ll see if I can go through father solo over the next few hours while I"m busy otherwise.

then we'll need mother -solo etc... but those should be MOSTLY correct. .. we'll look after we finish step 1 :)

SnowWolf said:
mother solo should have no results, yet I have something like 2000 posts

Nobody ever got around to cleaning all the leftovers from the old milf implications (used to be implicated to mother). Hence the high count for mother and parent.

Though I'm sure there's some new ones, too.

Genjar said:
Nobody ever got around to cleaning all the leftovers from the old milf implications (used to be implicated to mother). Hence the high count for mother and parent.

Though I'm sure there's some new ones, too.

That would do it. Do we have a tag for like "this is a dad being a dad, with refernce to kids, but the kids aren't here"?

Cleaned out father solo --everything there should be okay, I think, to get the father -> father_and_child alias.

as another note: Tags like father_and_son currently imply both father and son .. and father implies parent.. so while tidying the above tags, make sure you remove any father_and_son-styled tags, as well as the father and son and parent tags. :)

temporary sets...

Quite honestly, since I didn't know if we have a tag for posts where a character is heavily implied to be communicating with an off screen child (or parent)... or where the state of dad-ness is established by a sign or a bit of dialog...

but I made set:dadsbeingdads for some of those cases as well as set:kidsbeingkids ... hopefully those can be tagged correctly and moved along. :)

mother_and_father

ALSO!: There is mother_and_father which currently implies mother and father.
Which is kind of interesting. because in most cases, you need a child to also imply that they ARE parents and not jsut a couple... So any mother-and-father pictures should also have a mother_and_child and father_and_child in the picture too. (especially as husband_and_wife is a tag already...)

so post #404777 would have mother_and_father, mother_and_child, father_and_child as well as mother_and_daughter and father_and_daughter tags... geeze.

Maybe mother_and_father should be aliased to something like parents_and_child? On the downside, it's one letter off from parent_and_child... on the plus side, it also accommodates for homosexual families. :)
There should be something else for a picture of a couple with offspring?

there is family but that's a very big umbrella of things there.

SnowWolf said:
ALSO!: There is mother_and_father which currently implies mother and father. Which is kind of interesting. because in most cases, you need a child to also imply that they ARE parents and not jsut a couple...

Be extra careful with implications like that. Majority is not enough. Implied tag cannot be removed in those cases where it does not apply.

Imagine a post with a parent (or parents) holding a picture of a child.
And somehow it's made clear that it is indeed a picture of their child.

This should better be re-tagged or cleaned up, leaving space for case-by-case decisions. Not leveled flat with a sledgehammer that is the e6's automatic implication feature.

New suggestion:
Disambiguate father
Split into implied_father (offscreen kids, photos etc) and father_and_child and add these to father_(disambiguation) wiki. And obviously do about the same with mother, son and daughter. Implicate as mentioned above and disregard aliases above.

Also, all disambiguations from this should be easy for any decent tagger.

MyNameIsOver20charac said:
New suggestion:
Split into implied_father (offscreen kids, photos etc)

If you can see a clear sign of the character being a parent (such as a photograph of the family), they should be tagged as a parent. Never really liked the 'implied_*' tags because it seems like they tap-dance on the line of TWYK/TWYS.

hslugs said:
Be extra careful with implications like that. Majority is not enough. Implied tag cannot be removed in those cases where it does not apply.

Uh... Yes, I am aware of that, thank you.

Imagine a post with a parent (or parents) holding a picture of a child.
And somehow it's made clear that it is indeed a picture of their child.

Yes, situations like this are why I did, if you'll look, say, "in most cases"

This should better be re-tagged or cleaned up, leaving space for case-by-case decisions. Not leveled flat with a sledgehammer that is the e6's automatic implication feature.

e621's sledgehammer here is looking at 33 posts, not 3300. I will list any that do not firmly meet the criteria of a mother, a father AND a child together in the same picture:

post #1611787 - this is a comic strips, and the framing doesn't ever feature them in the same image.
post #1290008 - A pregnancy post. Of course, we have no way of knowing that the male is responsible in any way and could be an older brother, or a friend. Shouldn't be tagged with mother_and_father

MyNameIsOver20charac said:
New suggestion:
Disambiguate father
Split into implied_father (offscreen kids, photos etc) and father_and_child and add these to father_(disambiguation) wiki. And obviously do about the same with mother, son and daughter. Implicate as mentioned above and disregard aliases above.

Also, all disambiguations from this should be easy for any decent tagger.

Problem is, we don't really like implied tags... plus, everyone is someone's kid.

SnowWolf said:
Problem is, we don't really like implied tags

Isn't that exactly what you asked for here?

Quite honestly, since I didn't know if we have a tag for posts where a character is heavily implied to be communicating with an off screen child (or parent)... or where the state of dad-ness is established by a sign or a bit of dialog...

MyNameIsOver20charac said:
Isn't that exactly what you asked for here?

More asking about rather than asking for.

This is either one of those things where it jsut goes untagged, or there is already a tag that exists for it (and Genjar seems to know a loooot of random tags :) ) and I don't know.

Plus, I can't remember if incest is one of those things that kinda violates the TWYS rules, or the role that text plays in tags like this, since we ussssually ignore text, I think??

SnowWolf said:
More asking about rather than asking for.

This is either one of those things where it jsut goes untagged, or there is already a tag that exists for it (and Genjar seems to know a loooot of random tags :) ) and I don't know.

Plus, I can't remember if incest is one of those things that kinda violates the TWYS rules, or the role that text plays in tags like this, since we ussssually ignore text, I think??

Well then, original suggestion stands.

SnowWolf said:
Plus, I can't remember if incest is one of those things that kinda violates the TWYS rules, or the role that text plays in tags like this, since we ussssually ignore text, I think??

Incest used to be a rare exception to TWYS, because tagging it does require outside information and it's too major fetish to just ignore. Probably still is.

No idea about the text. Used to be that we were supposed to think of all text content as unreadable ("when tagging, assume that the text is in foreign language that you can't understand"), but that has got very fuzzy lately.

I feel like a lot of these are just tag bloat without any real searching utility.

Why do we need fully specified tags (ex: mother_and_son), half-specified tags (ex: parent_and_daughter), and fully unspecified tags (ex: parent_and_child)?

Personally I feel like you'd retain almost full searching capability by aliasing all of those to parent_and_child, since users are more than capable of specifying together with tags like mother, son, etc. But even assuming I'm wrong about that and further specification is needed, the half-specified tags seem pretty terrible.

Not to mention the mess that would be created if these tags attempted to deal with intersex combinations.

Generally we ought to try to get the maximum utility out of the minimum tags, and stop once we've hit the point of diminishing returns. This seems way beyond that point.

Clawdragons said:
I feel like a lot of these are just tag bloat without any real searching utility.

Why do we need fully specified tags (ex: mother_and_son), half-specified tags (ex: parent_and_daughter), and fully unspecified tags (ex: parent_and_child)?

Personally I feel like you'd retain almost full searching capability by aliasing all of those to parent_and_child, since users are more than capable of specifying together with tags like mother, son, etc. But even assuming I'm wrong about that and further specification is needed, the half-specified tags seem pretty terrible.

Not to mention the mess that would be created if these tags attempted to deal with intersex combinations.

Generally we ought to try to get the maximum utility out of the minimum tags, and stop once we've hit the point of diminishing returns. This seems way beyond that point.

I think you're missing one of my intentions with this suggestion. mother should never be tagged without atleast one offspring, meaning it's actually the same as mother_and_child. I want mother aliased to mother_and_child to avoid any ambiguity regarding the usage of the tag.

The only tags I see as possibly redundant are mother_and_daughter and the other [specified_parent]_and_[specified_offspring] tags, and while I'm in favour of keeping them I see your point and I'm open for discussion.

Genjar said:
Incest used to be a rare exception to TWYS, because tagging it does require outside information and it's too major fetish to just ignore. Probably still is.

No idea about the text. Used to be that we were supposed to think of all text content as unreadable ("when tagging, assume that the text is in foreign language that you can't understand"), but that has got very fuzzy lately.

Well, that helps clarify things, in the exact time that it also doesn't. Hm. Thank you, Tag guru <3

Clawdragons said:
I feel like a lot of these are just tag bloat without any real searching utility.

Why do we need fully specified tags (ex: mother_and_son), half-specified tags (ex: parent_and_daughter), and fully unspecified tags (ex: parent_and_child)?

Well... because people have particular tastes. some people want to see mothers interacting with kids. SOme people want to see daughters interacting with parents. some people want mother/daughter interaction specifically. others might not care and are just interested in the family bond existing.

I mean, I like cute family pictures. I've been having fun looking at some of the domestic life illustrations we have. I don't 'enjoy' fathers playing ball with sons as much as I do moms being moms. it reminds me of the few times i got to enjoy that. Yes, I have mommy issues. To me, it's totally reasonable to divide this up like that.

It has the benefit that if you tag mother_and_son you get all of the sub implications: mother_and_child, parent_and_son, parent_and_child without any effort.

Personally I feel like you'd retain almost full searching capability by aliasing all of those to parent_and_child, since users are more than capable of specifying together with tags like mother, son, etc. But even assuming I'm wrong about that and further specification is needed, the half-specified tags seem pretty terrible.

The problem is that people will tag "dad' on a picture of a dude sitting in an office after hours, with no pants on and an erection, smirking at the camera suggestively as "dad" because he's drinking out of a mug that says "#1 dad" .. people tag 'mom' on this-character-who-is-a-mom, even though it's a solo image.

these are not moms:

post #1388674 post #1276028 post #1153473

these are moms:

post #1779910 post #1746086 post #1751912 (and also, yes, the rating:e ones)

requireing there to be 'proof' of parenthood is not unreasonable. I don't care of the canon says that bara-boar over here is shota-boar's dad. I don't care if the mug suggests that he's a dad.

Plus, this requires tagging an additional tag, rather than a single tag that will imply everything for you.

Not to mention the mess that would be created if these tags attempted to deal with intersex combinations.

The intersex combinations ARE a problem that we've yet to confront.. however, there are only about 600-700 parent intersex posts, so we could probably make do with intersex_parent_and_son, intersex_parent_and_daughter, intersex_parent_and_child, intersex_parent_and_intersex_child..... and parent_and_intersex_child, mother_and_intersex_child, father_and_intersex_child

I believe that's covers everything....

and, as I've said, there's nothing wrong with having more tags. dickgirl/cuntboy has 114 pictures, yet it has all right to exist :P

SnowWolf said:
The problem is that people will tag "dad' on a picture of a dude sitting in an office after hours, with no pants on and an erection, smirking at the camera suggestively as "dad" because he's drinking out of a mug that says "#1 dad"

There's also the stupid 'daddy' meme that recently plagued the furry fandom and I'm certain that at least a handful uses of that tag got thrown about by new/misinformed uploaders into pictures of gay and/or buff men.

Okay, so I noticed that this has recieved a bunch of implications, which makes me happy :D However, unless the tag meanings have changed, mother and mother_and_child (and the father equivalent) still mean the same thing, meaning that mother should alias to mother_and_child instead of implying it.

SnowWolf said:
The intersex combinations ARE a problem that we've yet to confront.. however, there are only about 600-700 parent intersex posts, so we could probably make do with intersex_parent_and_son, intersex_parent_and_daughter, intersex_parent_and_child, intersex_parent_and_intersex_child..... and parent_and_intersex_child, mother_and_intersex_child, father_and_intersex_child

I'm not against specificity in tagging but I like the idea of keeping the system both clean and specific. since herm parents could be either mother or father, parent_and_child seems fine for ambiguous stuff. for more specificity and less clutter maybe use intersex_parent as an add on tag with *_and_* family tags. also intersex_offspring(or child, but this is less likely to be confused with young posts). if a character only has one set of genitals and there's no context/dialog it would probably still be mother/father_and_child imo. if a herm is in a scene and there's enough context to tell if they are the mother/father of the child then mother/father_and_* would probably be fine too.

question: would there be some way to make it so that a tag can only be applied if another tag is present? so if a user tries to apply the mother tag but doesn't apply the child tag(or it isn't auto tagged from a son, daughter, intersex_child tag implication) the tag wouldn't be applied when the user saved their tag edits? add a 3rd tag connection to the system, "dependencies".

-----------------
Dependency Suggestion:

intersex_parent
parent
mother
father
dependent->
child

daughter
son
child
intersex_child
dependent->
parent

Reason :
forum #268378