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Topic: Remove global tag locks

Posted under Site Bug Reports & Feature Requests

If i wanted to use a website to be forced to log into to see some content, i would use inkbunny.
Not sure why e6 would want to remove one of its greatest features to view all content while not logged in. a lot of people use private browsers on their phone.

The Defualt blacklist is good. Anyone that removes it from their list and troll / attack posts. Just be an instant ban as they know how to use blacklists. but let people be allowed to view all content without an account. otherwise another website might have to be the new go to option for a lot of users, as the devs simply want to remove users freedom for needing to log in to enjoy all content.

Sure lots of these changes will be better in the long run. but please don't remove our choices on what we are allowed to view while not logged in.
I think some of the changes are alright, it does give a generic vibe to the UI but thats my opinion.
I've always recommended e6 to others due to that flexablity, Most of us users don't want to find another website to get this option back. The devs will lose a chunk of users due to this.

The way i put it. you're treating adults like children needing to lock stuff behind a wall so they do what you want etc log in. this is an 18+ site where people are responsible for what they do and what punishments they get if they break the rules.

Some people like change; Some do not. but people "Hate" being forced restrictions on what they can or cant do.
we're on the internet, a place to escape our issues from life. Something a lot of people tend to forget in their development. so when they try to resolve issues in the masses. they forget too give both sides the option; and force site restrictions on to all users.

Apologies for the extra noise, But i really hope that this site doesn't become worse due to developers poor choices in forced restrictions to the users of the site.
Thanks for taking your time to read. Wish you all good days to come.

proxydestroyer said:
If i wanted to use a website to be forced to log into to see some content, i would use inkbunny.

Even Inkbunny allows guests to view any type of content after changing default filters. Of course sometimes logging in is required, but only because the uploader disabled guest access.

I also don't understand the login requirement for some tags and why the default blacklist is not enough. With default blacklist it's already not possible to see the "unpleasant" content accidentally. In order to see it, everyone must be fully aware of what they are doing and what they are going to see. So why log in?

After thinking it about it for most of today I think it might be for the best. It stops idiots who scream about cub being "literally pedophilia" from harassing artists and anyone who likes said content in the comments, and stops people who will happily click on a gore/scat image to tell everyone how disgusting they are from seeing it unless they remove it from their blacklists and basically give away that they are intentionally trying to start drama, which will get them a record, and a ban if they keep it up.

Also remember, a lot of the people off-site that were complaining about the content e6 allows have never actually had an account to begin with. This way, they get to avoid seeing stuff that would make them throw a capital-T Tantrum on twitter, while people who like said content can view it with only a small blacklist edit (Or in the case of people who have had an account before, can view it with no changes required)

The tiny, easily anxious, paranoid part of me does worry that this is only the beginning of an eventual "purge" of "problematic" content. But the staff assured me that again, unless U.S Law changes to deal with the topic of art involving anthropomorphic characters, and changes in such a way where such content becomes illegal, it's not going anywhere.

Updated

proxydestroyer said:
Some people like change; Some do not. but people "Hate" being forced restrictions on what they can or cant do.
we're on the internet, a place to escape our issues from life. Something a lot of people tend to forget in their development. so when they try to resolve issues in the masses. they forget too give both sides the option; and force site restrictions on to all users.

As someone who has been asking for default blacklist for years, thing is that less intellectual people don't know or refuse to block/blacklist content they do not like or even despice, which leads into mass downvotes on content only because it's containing specific kind of content, even if it's well made, which also leads into ordering by votes being unuseable with specific tags. Stuff like cub continues also being contriversal with there already being laws in place for loli and shota stuff and many furries and artists making the connection that cub = pedophilia, so as some of these individuals might or might be part of that less intellectual group they should never see that content again and intellectuals who know how to use password managers and blacklist of the site should see zero difference when they use the site.

I have seen at least several people being hyped about this change, even if I would also prefer the blacklist items to be removeable (guests can remove them from their blacklist, but they are not properly removed until login) with suggestions of most blacklisted items instead. But at the same time, just login.

ebea57 said:
Even Inkbunny allows guests to view any type of content after changing default filters. Of course sometimes logging in is required, but only because the uploader disabled guest access.

I was not aware of this, every time I have bumped into explicit post I have been told to login.

mairo said:
As someone who has been asking for default blacklist for years, thing is that less intellectual people don't know or refuse to block/blacklist content they do not like or even despice, which leads into mass downvotes on content only because it's containing specific kind of content, even if it's well made, which also leads into ordering by votes being unuseable with specific tags.

I have seen this so i know it's true, there surely are people out there who don't want to take the time to configure their blacklist. But also, there are people who seek it out content specifically to hate on it, and no amount of automatic blacklisting is going to prevent that. The nice thing is if a guest sees the content, they don't immediately have the ability to comment, and seeing that it's rather inconvenient to make a new account passes it by. Now, perhaps there's a scenario where someone new joins the site without knowing about the content being hosted and stumbles upon it and thinks it's unsavory, as a hypothetical. Now not only are they invested in the community but they also have decided that they dislike the content, so they perhaps might feel more obligated to comment negatively if they dislike it than the average passing guests who stumbles upon it. I feel like it can go both ways.

I have seen at least several people being hyped about this change, even if I would also prefer the blacklist items to be removeable (guests can remove them from their blacklist, but they are not properly removed until login) with suggestions of most blacklisted items instead.

I feel like it still serves to alienate people further in this manner, because to me it feels like the site is singling out these interests and there are many similarly controversial tags the automatic blacklist doesn't cover. It would be less controversial to just let people configure their own blacklists.

I must agree, certain tags being blocked from view without signing in is a fairly great deal annoying, and I can't imagine it stopping the people who refuse to use blacklist either.

mairo said:
I was not aware of this, every time I have bumped into explicit post I have been told to login.

That's because many artists choose to block guest access to explicit content. So either you didn't have a chance to bump into post that was not blocked or you have overlooked that option.
Here you have an example of explicit post that can be viewed by guests: https://inkbunny.net/s/2049512

"stops idiots" This is actually impossible. Why appease people that literally want you to disappear of the face of the EarthInternet, if they're just going to keep being insufferable and incurably ignorant bigots? There's a reason that terms like 'Dunning-Kruger effect' exist. They are not mentally equiped to remove their blinders or do critical thinking outside of their narrow experiences. It's like making a fish out of water breath... chlorine gas. You'll never get it to work with repeated attempts, or it already would have.

On E-Hentai, 'mass downvotes' were made irrelevant, and you get banned from abused features very quickly. Brigaders and sock puppets are a different issue, and require sterner measures like reverting and shadow banning. The admin resorted to delaying uploads showing up for an hour in search for 'those' IP address blocks. :/ If I was being sneaky, I could track how often you downvote galleries with a given tag, after explicitly looking for 200 of them and mass downvoting. Some sites actually warn you against this as abusive behavior. It's the philosophy behind "use blacklists or STFU" attitude on this site, hehe. Thing is, misery loves company, and people that don't like to make everyone miserable get annoyed with those that do (and those that help them!). There's a thing where if you constantly downvote comments on E-H, it weakens your effective mod power to near 0, so you HAVE to find something better to do or waste your time upvoting other comments, which is actually kind of clever. This tries to annoy the "people who seek it out content specifically to hate on it" types.

In my opinion, the default blacklist is good. I think it should stay.

I suspect it's good for the site owners legally. Showing a little discretion makes the furry community look better. As far as I know, it's not the site's mission to cater to people who don't have accounts.

Making it mandatory is rude, though.

The legality aspect... it doesn't really help you at all. As other have pointed out, this site is band in Chinabanned in most countries. I'm not sure where that myth came from about it 'helping'. If they clicked through an 18+ dialogue, and manually edited blacklist stored in browser, requiring yet another step is kind of redundant.

I don't understand the gripes. All you need to do is create an account. e621 doesn't use your email or put it on a list to sell your shit with. The only time I've ever received an email from them is when I forgot my password and requested a password reset.

This isn't a big deal like people are making it out to be. You could even just make a throwaway email specifically for the site, and this *should* take less than 10 minutes of your time. It's a small bump in the road and not a mountain.

indigoheat said:
I don't understand the gripes. All you need to do is create an account. e621 doesn't use your email or put it on a list to sell your shit with. The only time I've ever received an email from them is when I forgot my password and requested a password reset.

This isn't a big deal like people are making it out to be. You could even just make a throwaway email specifically for the site, and this *should* take less than 10 minutes of your time. It's a small bump in the road and not a mountain.

People just want to complain to make themselves feel valid and unique. But when the same thread keeps being posted over and over again, it loses whatever validity and uniqueness it had

waba said:
People just want to complain to make themselves feel valid and unique. But when the same thread keeps being posted over and over again, it loses whatever validity and uniqueness it had

Since when did validity and uniqueness have anything to do with speaking your mind or enacting change? Are you saying that if it conflicts with what YOU and other like-minded people think, then it's not valid? Is that it?

indigoheat said:
I don't understand the gripes. All you need to do is create an account. e621 doesn't use your email or put it on a list to sell your shit with. The only time I've ever received an email from them is when I forgot my password and requested a password reset.

This isn't a big deal like people are making it out to be. You could even just make a throwaway email specifically for the site, and this *should* take less than 10 minutes of your time. It's a small bump in the road and not a mountain.

They don't like it because it is yet another goddamn account to keep track of and remember login details for and because many people do use incognito mode when they browse adult content that means logging in every single goddamn time and life is hard.
Also some were permabanned so now they can't access those posts at all as we also ban their new accounts immidiately.

So yeah, I can definitely understand counterargumentation, because for some reason people aren't just using password managers like they should to make their life easier and more secure, this message is sponsored by... (seriously, just get password manager, also helps with sourcing on e621 as almost literally all furry gallery sites require account to see mature content)

Also there are bunch of other things that are effecting these decsions.
Here's btw what you get if you search for lolicon on gelbooru, site which hosts japanese artwork and japanese love their lolicon:
https://puu.sh/FibNm/43331d3746.png
Many piracy sites which I won't mention have identical approach.

Updated

Okay, so, I'll try to shed some light on it, especially now that I've had a chance to talk a bit more about things with the others at Dragonfruit (the company that actually deals with the page since most of Bad Dragon isn't actually doing anything with us).

There are currently two blacklists existing. The user blacklist (which is also available to anons and can be freely edited) and the global blacklist (which is only active for anons).

These have both been made to deal with two irrelevant issues:

The user blacklist has had default items added to it because those are the big items that cause people to cause a ruckus in comments over nothing, and cause us to spend quite some wasted time constantly having to explain how to use the blacklist, issue records for insulting the people that like the content, and watching trolls troll because low hanging fruits. We may actually some more things to it, like rape, but this list will always be fully editable to everybody, and is simply there to help the newest newcomers who are vanilla to protect their eye balls.
It's also there so that the people that enjoy the content can do so in peace without some vanilla dudes crying up a stink about how terrible the pixels hurt their feelings.

Now to the less pleasant blacklist, the global one. This blacklist has been added because we've been constantly getting heckled by government officials of foreign nations that our content is illegal in their jurisdiction, and that we need to comply or they'll ban us, send the feds on us, set our crops on fire, and generally be annoying. And it's not just been us, but also our host that has gotten these legitimate threats. So in order to protect our (and your) asses we've had to take a rather drastic step to curb those people from bothering us.
As such we absolutely intent to have that blacklist continue to exist simply so we can stop having to play whack-a-mole with those people.

However, I'm not quite happy with the current iteration on how it's implemented, but for the time being it'll serve it's purpose. We will likely iterate on this and allow, somehow, to bypass this blacklist via a toggle. However, this won't happen this week (or next).
For the time being, please put up with making a throwaway account via an email you don't care about, and then abandon it the moment it's no longer needed. The only data we collect is an email address (which we won't sell or spam with anything unless you explicitly request it) and IP addresses so we can actually send you what you're looking for.

Thank you for finally giving a full response to this issue. I would highly recommend reposting this in its own sticky to avoid these threads proliferating (and also just to have it be easy to find). Also, good to hear that we aren't the only ones not happy with the global anon BL. Hopefully that toggle comes sooner than later.

rambunctiousreptile said:
Thank you for finally giving a full response to this issue. I would highly recommend reposting this in its own sticky to avoid these threads proliferating (and also just to have it be easy to find). Also, good to hear that we aren't the only ones not happy with the global anon BL. Hopefully that toggle comes sooner than later.

Seems like this entire launch would've gone better if the staff were more forthcoming with information.

Anyhow, I hope a toggle is added that can also be toggled by users that aren't logged in.

notmenotyou said:
Now to the less pleasant blacklist, the global one. This blacklist has been added because we've been constantly getting heckled by government officials of foreign nations that our content is illegal in their jurisdiction, and that we need to comply...

So how does hiding this content behind an account-wall satisfy their demand? The content is still there, people from those countries can still create accounts and access it. Are you blocking account creation from these oppressive nations as well?

Well, I'm glad that an account-less toggle is likely to be coming in the future, even if it's not immediate. That's good news.

typeofscorpion said:
Well, I'm glad that an account-less toggle is likely to be coming in the future, even if it's not immediate. That's good news.

If only they'd have waited a bit more until it was actually finished in the first place...

Hey guys, I don't wanna make a thread on this cause I might get blocked but can someone help me?

Now, I don't mind the global blacklist, actually. It's what we gotta do to survive. But everytime some site bans c*b or l*li, I'm left wondering... why don't they go after other types of material? Why is there so much p*do hysteria? Why don't they go after bestiality, or disabled fetish, or senile fetish? Okay, I made up the last two, I don't think they're real, but if they were no one would bat an eye! But mainly feral/beastly, no one is bothered by it and it ticks me off cause I'm a c*b fan and we're literally singled out. I checked the other tags already, only things that may allude to p*do are on the global blacklist.

So in conclusion, no I don't mind if people hate c*bs or whatever, just go after the other controversial tags, too!

fuckforcedblacklists said:
So how does hiding this content behind an account-wall satisfy their demand? The content is still there, people from those countries can still create accounts and access it. Are you blocking account creation from these oppressive nations as well?

A website can only have so much responsibility. If someone in such a country were to create an account and log in to view these images, then the user in question would be violating the laws of said country and not e621.

It's the equivalent of buying illegal fireworks outside of one's home state, bringing it to your own state, and then setting them off even though doing so is against the law there. If the person gets caught lighting those illegal fireworks, it's not really the fault of the one who sold those fireworks, as there is an expectation that the fireworks--or in this case, the content--are being used legally, or in a zone where they can be used without legal repurcussions.

Updated

notmenotyou said:
Now to the less pleasant blacklist, the global one. This blacklist has been added because we've been constantly getting heckled by government officials of foreign nations that our content is illegal in their jurisdiction, and that we need to comply or they'll ban us, send the feds on us, set our crops on fire, and generally be annoying. And it's not just been us, but also our host that has gotten these legitimate threats. So in order to protect our (and your) asses we've had to take a rather drastic step to curb those people from bothering us.
As such we absolutely intent to have that blacklist continue to exist simply so we can stop having to play whack-a-mole with those people.

Thank you very much for clarification!

However I can see this line of thinking leading in another direction entirely: deleting all of the offending content (ala Discord and SoFurry) to make the site (and its ad revenue) accessible in more markets.

Please consider the possibility that these "foreign nations" will likely continue to object to e6 and portions of its content in general -- the site can keep ceding ground to these people and it'll still be a perpetual game of whack-a-mole -- and that a large part of e6's core audience is USA based, where this kind of drawn content is quite legal.

Cheers!

notmenotyou said:
However, I'm not quite happy with the current iteration on how it's implemented, but for the time being it'll serve it's purpose. We will likely iterate on this and allow, somehow, to bypass this blacklist via a toggle. However, this won't happen this week (or next).
For the time being, please put up with making a throwaway account via an email you don't care about, and then abandon it the moment it's no longer needed. The only data we collect is an email address (which we won't sell or spam with anything unless you explicitly request it) and IP addresses so we can actually send you what you're looking for.

Does this refer to the "more pleasant blacklist" or the "less pleasant blacklist"?

Because I can't imagine that this barrier:

  • face-rolling the account registration feature when told to and clicking through a google captcha

vs this one:

  • clicking the "Disable" option on the blacklist when linked to an image page directly, or going to an anonymous-user settings page (which doesn't exist yet) to remove the blacklist entries before searching

is the difference between any legal issues or not. Especially when image hotlinks will load up fine, and the image pages themselves (with both a link to source image, and also have a handy notice telling you to login to see said image) are also available.

That is: I don't think forcing people to click through a google captcha and face-roll their keyboard is more more of a barrier to seeing the image vs clicking the disable blacklist link for some ISP abuse contact who got a crazed e-mail and a link to e621 saying "omg they're hosting captain planet!" -- assuming they didn't just get linked to the image directly in the first place.

I don't think that tiny chance of some possible benefit out-weighs the many problems people have with it, including:

  • Making incognito mode a hassle to use
  • Forcing users to flood the system with one-time use accounts if they don't want to trust that e621 isn't logging information that would tie all of their browsing habits across VPNs etc. to a single account, especially since we are talking about "potentially illegal to some people in some countries" content here
  • The mild inconvenience where I now have to remember to copy the image link before sharing a post on e621 with someone, rather than linking the page itself, so that the majority of people who don't have e621 accounts can actually see what I linked to
  • The feeling of being treated as user too dumb to know what they actually want when they explicitly click "Disable" on their blacklist and the page still won't show them the picture.

Great, a cop out to people that ban everything else, too. And yes, the puritans are westerners, if anyone's wondering. This is how it all dies.

As far as "All you need to do is create an account", yeah, this is the plague that was popular a decade ago. Apparently, now they make it even more awful. No one wanted to make 500 accounts, and they now make sure you have to deal with horrible 3rd parties who want to abuse their users, try to use phone numbers as a proxy for uniquely identifying and linking pseudonyms, and so on. This kind of thing has gotten out of hand.

waba said:
People just want to complain to make themselves feel valid and unique. But when the same thread keeps being posted over and over again, it loses whatever validity and uniqueness it had

Or maybe because people are dismissing even the possibility that it's a problem.

As far as direct linking... Do an MD5 search and see what happens. Searching explicitly for a post or tag seems to be sensible not to block.

Updated

There better be a way to turn off the stupid blacklist soon, because having to make a throwaway is goddamn annoying, especially since e6 seems to hate temporary email providers.

vixelkit said:

Please consider the possibility that these "foreign nations" will likely continue to object to e6 and portions of its content in general -- the site can keep ceding ground to these people and it'll still be a perpetual game of whack-a-mole -- and that a large part of e6's core audience is USA based, where this kind of drawn content is quite legal.

Our ISP isn't going to look at it that way forever. If they get enough heat on them they can potentially drag us into doing this exact thing all the same, regardless of the law. This is unfortunately something we can barely avoid as it is, and it's not the most ideal solution but this is just the unfortunate reality of the internet these days.

Literally made this account because they made the default blacklist permanent without one. Refer to my name.

Updated

proxydestroyer said:
If i wanted to use a website to be forced to log into to see some content, i would use inkbunny.

ebea57 said:
Even Inkbunny allows guests to view any type of content after changing default filters. Of course sometimes logging in is required, but only because the uploader disabled guest access.

ebea57 said:
That's because many artists choose to block guest access to explicit content. So either you didn't have a chance to bump into post that was not blocked or you have overlooked that option.
Here you have an example of explicit post that can be viewed by guests: https://inkbunny.net/s/2049512

Apologies for the tangent, but just to clear this up: Guest access to mature submissions on IB is blocked by default, in a less-than-obvious way. As in, as soon as you check one of the 'Mature' boxes during upload, the 'Block Guests' checkbox (which can be off-screen) is automatically checked. You have to remember to uncheck this explicitly, or it'll be blocked by default - so I'll wager a good chunk of artists just don't bother with the extra step.

tokaitori said:
After thinking it about it for most of today I think it might be for the best. It stops idiots who scream about cub being "literally pedophilia"

Oh no, not identifying and removing idiots right away.

How about the damn site stops trying to think for people?

e621_hates_anons said:
Literally made this account because they made the default blacklist permanent without one. Refer to my name.

All too true. e621 has gotten way more hostile to people without an account. Such a dumb move.

notmenotyou said:

There are currently two blacklists existing. The user blacklist (which is also available to anons and can be freely edited) and the global blacklist (which is only active for anons).

Now to the less pleasant blacklist, the global one. This blacklist has been added because we've been constantly getting heckled by government officials of foreign nations that our content is illegal in their jurisdiction, and that we need to comply or they'll ban us, send the feds on us, set our crops on fire, and generally be annoying. And it's not just been us, but also our host that has gotten these legitimate threats. So in order to protect our (and your) asses we've had to take a rather drastic step to curb those people from bothering us.
As such we absolutely intent to have that blacklist continue to exist simply so we can stop having to play whack-a-mole with those people.

However, I'm not quite happy with the current iteration on how it's implemented, but for the time being it'll serve it's purpose. We will likely iterate on this and allow, somehow, to bypass this blacklist via a toggle. However, this won't happen this week (or next).
For the time being

Thanks for the clarification. Hope development runs smoothly with the new changes.

we've been constantly getting heckled by government officials of foreign nations that our content is illegal in their jurisdiction

Y'all keeping track of who, exactly, does this? Might come in handy to know who the bad guys are.

thegentilehunter said:
is their anyway to generate a shortcut that can automatically log someone in when they open it…
people like me use incognito mode because we dont want people to easily see our sex fetish activities. but a shortcut hidden away on a hhd is a lower risk.

how about creating a separate browser profile (which can be 'hidden away'), and a shortcut to launch the browser with the alternate profile loaded.
that way you don't lose your session cookies every time you close it.

bipface said:
how about creating a separate browser profile (which can be 'hidden away'), and a shortcut to launch the browser with the alternate profile loaded.
that way you don't lose your session cookies every time you close it.

might work

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