Topic: Lore tags

Posted under Tag/Wiki Projects and Questions

What happened to those. Did they get abolished or have big restrictions or something?
I would like to use those though.Did it lead to some problems in the past?
Ot can we just use them?
Or are they still getting set up?

That thread looks like on back fire, isn't it? I just would want to know if that project is still alive, because it feels like there is absolutely no response from it.

bitWolfy

Former Staff

agiant said:
That thread looks like on back fire, isn't it? I just would want to know if that project is still alive, because it feels like there is absolutely no response from it.

Lore tags exist, and there are quite a few posts with them: https://e621.net/tags?search[category]=8&search[hide_empty]=no&search[order]=count
They are not widely used because they are just not needed all that often, in my opinion. Usually, they come up when people come to a disagreement regarding TWYS.
You can use them like you use any other tag, though.

bitwolfy said:
Lore tags exist, and there are quite a few posts with them: https://e621.net/tags?search[category]=8&search[hide_empty]=no&search[order]=count
They are not widely used because they are just not needed all that often, in my opinion. Usually, they come up when people come to a disagreement regarding TWYS.
You can use them like you use any other tag, though.

What I meant is there are 12 tags black_panther_(lore) included while some tags like the partnering tags or the penetration tags are not included. Also there is no change since some time. So I thought that it's just on the back burner.

bitWolfy

Former Staff

agiant said:
What I meant is there are 12 tags black_panther_(lore) included while some tags like the partnering tags or the penetration tags are not included. Also there is no change since some time. So I thought that it's just on the back burner.

First of all, what are you on about?
There is exactly one (1) post tagged black_panther_(lore).

Penetration lore tags are generally not needed. I'm pretty sure those came to be exclusively because some people won't stop whining about what gender the characters "really" are. They aren't really useful for search purposes anyways.

bitwolfy said:
First of all, what are you on about?
There is exactly one (1) post tagged black_panther_(lore).

Penetration lore tags are generally not needed. I'm pretty sure those came to be exclusively because some people won't stop whining about what gender the characters "really" are. They aren't really useful for search purposes anyways.

For your information I'm not complaining. Just stating why I deduct that lore tags might be a back burner or not. I would like them to get established. So I'm asking for information.

The problem about that panther is that it has a tag. If lore tags need approval why does that have one while the ones I stated have not and many others either. If I'm wrong with this approval thing and I can just add my own lore tags which then get created because I added them would already solve everything.
By the way I came along maaaany posts I would tag with penetration lore tags.

I'm not whining about those but I think lore tags are important and definitively a great improvement. TWYS is pretty restrictive but actually easy to understand but this wishi washi behavior leads to loosing TWYSs purpose. Those restrictions also raises many complaints with its biggest part know as "tag wars". Even if there were no people whining there should be lore tags. If you don't feel the need for lore tags it's because TWYS is not really applied.
Also I'm one of the persons who gave up following TWYS at least in the form of correcting wrong tags because I don't want to trouble myself and worst cases get into another dispute or even more trouble than the correcting already was.

Updated

bitwolfy said:

Penetration lore tags are generally not needed. [...] They aren't really useful for search purposes anyways.

I have to preface that I ultimately agree,
but in the interest of being thorough, it is theoretically possible to produce artwork in which neither posing, scene context, or character expression is sufficient evidence to determine whether penetration is even happening.

agiant said:
For your information I'm not complaining. Just stating why I deduct that lore tags might be a back burner or not. I would like them to get established. So I'm asking for information.

The main thing with lore tags is there's not supposed to be many of them. Lore tags aren't intended to be a mirror of general tags that you don't have to see in the picture to apply.

The sex/gender lore tags are there because, especially with comics or where the character appears in many posts, the way a character appears for TWYS can change between pages, and someone might want to know that a character that looks female on one post will actually have a penis that might show up in other posts, or that an ambiguous-looking character is actually female, rather than making assumptions about their sex and getting invested in those assumptions before seeing to the contrary. The gender identity tags are there to help people know how to refer to a character (e.g. a female or andromorph-looking character that identifies as a man). Incest is there because characters that look similar doesn't inherently mean they're related, and current TWYS rules say text/dialog is external information, so it helps people know the characters are related if they like or are put off by that kind of thing.

In contrast, penetration/penetrating lore tags wouldn't serve as useful of a purpose, compared to the existing lore tags. There's not much of a reason people should know, unlike the aforementioned lore tags.

bitWolfy

Former Staff

agiant said: ...

To clarify, I did not say that you were whining about lore gender tags. I apologize if it appeared that way.
I was talking about the myriad of edit wars waged over reasons like "but the artist stated that the character is male".

agiant said: By the way I came along maaaany posts I would tag with penetration lore tags.

Why? What's the benefit of those extraneous tags?
I am not asking for much, just hoping that you would provide a reason for their existence.

magnuseffect said:
I have to preface that I ultimately agree,
but in the interest of being thorough, it is theoretically possible to produce artwork in which neither posing, scene context, or character expression is sufficient evidence to determine whether penetration is even happening.

That is true. Although, I am not certain if character expression is sufficient evidence for penetration either, but that is a whole other discussion.

Updated

watsit said:
The main thing with lore tags is there's not supposed to be many of them. Lore tags aren't intended to be a mirror of general tags that you don't have to see in the picture to apply.

The sex/gender lore tags are there because, especially with comics or where the character appears in many posts, the way a character appears for TWYS can change between pages, and someone might want to know that a character that looks female on one post will actually have a penis that might show up in other posts, or that an ambiguous-looking character is actually female, rather than making assumptions about their sex and getting invested in those assumptions before seeing to the contrary. The gender identity tags are there to help people know how to refer to a character (e.g. a female or andromorph-looking character that identifies as a man). Incest is there because characters that look similar doesn't inherently mean they're related, and current TWYS rules say text/dialog is external information, so it helps people know the characters are related if they like or are put off by that kind of thing.

In contrast, penetration/penetrating lore tags wouldn't serve as useful of a purpose, compared to the existing lore tags. There's not much of a reason people should know, unlike the aforementioned lore tags.

I don't really know how to respond to this. I deleted my text a few times already.

I'll keep it short a lore tag that isn't the mirror for information you can't see but get from somewhere else on the site is IMO not worth the effort and subjective.

agiant said:
a lore tag that isn't the mirror for information you can't see but get from somewhere else on the site is IMO not worth the effort and subjective.

What I mean is, "The artist says the image has X and I want to tag X, but I can't because of TWYS, so I want to tag X_(lore) instead", isn't a good reason. Every X_(lore) tag that gets approved should have a useful purpose on its own, aside from "TWYS doesn't let me tag X on this post".

bitwolfy said:
To clarify, I did not say that you were whining about lore gender tags. I apologize if it appeared that way.
I was talking about the myriad of edit wars waged over reasons like "but the artist stated that they are male".

I didn't take it as you calling me whining but was a clarification because what I say would go into the "but the real character is" kinda point. I think it's important what the character really is and not restricted to gender or something. Personally I would like a complete copy of the general and species tags but I know that that is ridiculous.

bitwolfy said:
Why? What's the benefit of those extraneous tags?
I am not asking for much, just hoping that you would provide a reason for their existence.

People get into disputes and while you will not be able to change an a** from being one you'll have a compromise for those who are not but have some points both. I for example have some favorites which I only found because I coincidentally stumbled upon. and penetration is also one of those where I personally get many hits. Also like I said penetration is just an example.

The current lore tags are subjective and the ones I want are subjective. There might be a count difference but I would not lean to far out the window if I said the count would make its existence just.

watsit said:
What I mean is, "The artist says the image has X and I want to tag X, but I can't because of TWYS, so I want to tag X_(lore) instead", isn't a good reason. Every X_(lore) tag that gets approved should have a useful purpose on its own, aside from "TWYS doesn't let me tag X on this post".

But who decides that the reason is good enough. It's subjective. There is no transparency or weighting system you can see or a discussion why it's not done or done.
If there is a description from the artist added to the post itself it's a good enough reason IMO. If there is one parent/child/pool post which gives you more information that's a reason good enough IMO.
Establishments are not a good enough reason IMO. We are at an open art site where everybody posts everything with any kind of alterations. How can there be an establishment. Will you revoke the lore tag the moment that establishment is proven wrong.

If posting examples at the thread will solve that I could also post examples with my requests.

agiant said:
But who decides that the reason is good enough.

Ultimately, the admins. Typically someone will propose a lore tag, users will debate it throwing in their 2 cents for why/why not, and the admins will make a judgment based on whether or not it would be beneficial enough.

agiant said:
If there is a description from the artist added to the post itself it's a good enough reason IMO. If there is one parent/child/pool post which gives you more information that's a reason good enough IMO.

As it is, this site works on a TWYS policy, with few exceptions. The reason is because if someone wants to see X or doesn't want to see X, they can search for or blacklist it, without dealing with technicalities like "it may look uncomfortably like a cub, but the artist said they were over 18!" or "it may look like they're enjoying it, but really it's rape". Lore tags don't help searches or blacklists based on what's visually seen in an image, so instead, a lore tag would need to serve some other purpose. General information can be provided in the description, without clogging up the tag list.

watsit said:
Ultimately, the admins. Typically someone will propose a lore tag, users will debate it throwing in their 2 cents for why/why not, and the admins will make a judgment based on whether or not it would be beneficial enough.

So it stays as plain subjective.

watsit said:
As it is, this site works on a TWYS policy, with few exceptions. The reason is because if someone wants to see X or doesn't want to see X, they can search for or blacklist it, without dealing with technicalities like "it may look uncomfortably like a cub, but the artist said they were over 18!" or "it may look like they're enjoying it, but really it's rape". Lore tags don't help searches or blacklists based on what's visually seen in an image, so instead, a lore tag would need to serve some other purpose. General information can be provided in the description, without clogging up the tag list.

Can you explain me what is the difference in the current lore tags? They are just clogging the tag list without showing what it is tagged as.
Please stay consistent. Just cancel the lore tags completely or make them what they are or say that's a subjective project where no logical rules are behind. I don't see any other possibility how you can explain the current lore tags and what they are for.

Story and "reality" play a role for everyone and on average it's quiet big. For some it's smaller for others it's the most important and I wouldn't again go too far with saying for the least people it's irrelevant. Also TWYS is not applied on e621 anyways. Even I who is here since just 6 months knows that TWYS is not applied. e621 has not the means to hold that policy up. IMO mainly because of the lack of lore tags. I personally don't like the TWYS policy either because reality is disregarded but I understand why it's done like that: It's easy to maintain and it's clear what to do. If there were not those people thinking that some posts don't deserve to be tagged what you can see but more. Until recently I did like my best to go against the current but I gave up. Mainly with two reasons it's too much of a hassle and it's not rewarding to tag something as something what it isn't. So I will not go against the current again if I can't even see a little reward behind it.

agiant said:
Can you explain me what is the difference in the current lore tags?

I did earlier:

watsit said:
The sex/gender lore tags are there because, especially with comics or where the character appears in many posts, the way a character appears for TWYS can change between pages, and someone might want to know that a character that looks female on one post will actually have a penis that might show up in other posts, or that an ambiguous-looking character is actually female, rather than making assumptions about their sex and getting invested in those assumptions before seeing to the contrary. The gender identity tags are there to help people know how to refer to a character (e.g. a female or andromorph-looking character that identifies as a man). Incest is there because characters that look similar doesn't inherently mean they're related, and current TWYS rules say text/dialog is external information, so it helps people know the characters are related if they like or are put off by that kind of thing.

In other words, the tags help provide information that apply outside of a specific image, and details that can significantly affect a person's enjoyment of those images. "Man, I was really interested in her, then she whipped out a dick. :(" or "Wait, they're a girl?? Boner ruined..." or "I'm confused, she's his sister? Gross." In contrast, whether or not someone is penetrating or penetrated in a given post doesn't matter as much. If there aren't other tells, like positioning and expressions, and there aren't other relevant tags like x_on_y or romantic_couple, it generally doesn't affect things to the same degree.

watsit said:
I did earlier:

[...]

In other words, the tags help provide information that apply outside of a specific image, and details that can significantly affect a person's enjoyment of those images. "Man, I was really interested in her, then she whipped out a dick. :(" or "Wait, they're a girl?? Boner ruined..." or "I'm confused, she's his sister? Gross." In contrast, whether or not someone is penetrating or penetrated in a given post doesn't matter as much. If there aren't other tells, like positioning and expressions, and there aren't other relevant tags like x_on_y or romantic_couple, it generally doesn't affect things to the same degree.

Ok. I give up. You stay subjective. I gave you the answer to those, too, and also not only once. Also it's now the 3rd time that I say that penetration is just an example. I also said the amount of posts of the lore tags even for penetration would make them just. I also explained that they have importance as mirror tags for many people. So naturally following the importance, those would play a role in many ways searching and blacklisting included.
Also it's not if someone is getting penetrated or is penetrating. While that would surely play a role, too, I was thinking about: is it anal or vaginal or something else (there are those, too). And it is still just an example. An example I gave against the black_panther_(lore) tag. An example that has 15k under ambiguous_penetration with a much bigger amount as a black number (+mistagged and missing tag).

Also I never did compare gender or incest lore tags with another. They deserve to be the top ones for the lore tags but not to be the only ones.

And here you are still repeating to me almost the same things since square one. You didn't answer ONE of my questions. You come to me with some child like examples for reasoning why the gender tags should be in there which I never questioned. Should or do I have to do the same? I'm really trying but you don't make it easy for me. I'm reloading since 3 hours to see if there is maybe more to it than just this message to no avail.

I also reread the thread about lore tags which also showed me that following that you are just talking with nothing backing you up. If you have a source for your points I would be happy if you share those. If not from where do you take all this information?
So if you are talking the truth, than the thread of lore tags is more than just misleading, than lore tags are a back burner, than it doesn't change the fact that the lore tags are just a subjective "my rules, my limits" project.

Pls this time anybody who is replying to this, answer my questions, too, in your reply or just don't reply.

EDIT: Sorry I forgott to include that some kind of actions and other things could affect a persons enjoyment positively or negatively.

Updated

I'm sry if I hurt someone with my previous comments. I'm not sure why but somehow I caught myself taking things the wrong way or at least responding aggressively. So like I said I'm sorry if somebody felt the same way.

To get to my point.
What is the status of lore tags currently?
Is further work on it cancelled with having the gender tags and the incest tag?
Is it accepted as finished like it is? If yes why?
Is there a way to get it (back) started?

Why do I ask? On personal level my reason is that lore is really important for me. In the same way a gender or being incest could turn off or on somebody I feel many times the same about things you can't see but are fact. I don't think that I'm alone with that, too.
IMO it would also improve blacklisting and exploring the site. Some tag wars would get to an end, too. I'm not expecting the results fast. I even think it would take some years maybe to really blossom but it would be a step into the right direction.

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