The bulk update request #361 has been rejected.

remove implication fruit (41154) -> food (155550)
remove implication living_fruit (1731) -> food_creature (8117)

Reason: many of the posts tagged with fruit or living_fruit get implied/tagged on posts that contain carved pumpkins or character's with carved pumpkins as part/all of their bodies, which I wouldn't consider "food". also, the tags could potentially be used to tag inedible/poison fruits, which I feel like also shouldn't be tagged with food.

EDIT: The bulk update request #361 (forum #298955) has been rejected by @Millcore.

I feel like that last one is inappropriate. Meat is specifically muscle tissue that has been removed from a creature for the sake of eating it. It's always food. Raw meat might be unfinished food, but it's still food. Like cake batter and bread dough are still classified as food, even though they're unfinished.

darryus said:
although there are situations where raw meat could be considered food

flesh?

I still don't think I'd count raw ingredients, uncooked mixes, and unprepared meats to be "food". If it's not meant to be eaten in it's current state it's not really food.
is straight flour "food"? are raw eggs food? are whole eggs food? just because you _can_ eat them in their current state I don't think we should consider them to be food. for tagging purposes I don't think it makes much sense to tag these things as food.

darryus said:
is straight flour "food"?

At the very least a food ingredient

are raw eggs food? are whole eggs food?

Yes, context permitting.

just because you _can_ eat them in their current state I don't think we should consider them to be food. for tagging purposes I don't think it makes much sense to tag these things as food.

There should definitely be context involved but I don't think it's reasonable to exclude everything that's not 100% done-and-ready-to-eat from being considered food.
The one thing I can agree with here is that fruits shouldn't automatically be food. But meat already has to contextually be a foodstuff for the tag to apply, at least according to the wiki.

darryus said:
I still don't think I'd count raw ingredients, uncooked mixes, and unprepared meats to be "food". If it's not meant to be eaten in it's current state it's not really food.
is straight flour "food"? are raw eggs food? are whole eggs food? just because you _can_ eat them in their current state I don't think we should consider them to be food. for tagging purposes I don't think it makes much sense to tag these things as food.

So because you can't immediately eat it without preparation it isn't food? Nuts aren't food. Anything with a wrapper or plastic packaging isn't food. Anything you need to heat up before eating isn't food.
While I'll hesitantly somewhat agree on de-implicating fruit, as fruit is not implicitly edible so much as a part of a plant (Belladonna, anyone?), general usage is not botanical usage.

okay, I concede on meat, it's just fruit now

I'm not sure how to feel about this, even with it just reduced to fruit. Yes, not all fruit is edible. To humans. But even poisonous ones often look edible, and even are to some species. For example, deer and birds can eat different parts of yew just fine, despite the plants being otherwise poisonous to humans and cattle. That said, I can understand why someone might want to separate things by whether or not a human can eat them--after all, that's most intuitive to people.

...Yet, I can't help but feel like it'd be more useful to keep the implications as-is, because, again, many inedible plants look like edible ones. TWYS and all. And it would certainly make things a lot easier.

As for the examples of carved pumpkins, or pumpkin-based creatures, and things of that nature? I'd still consider those taggable as food. Even if the carved pumpkin is one of those plastic decorations. I'd still tag it as food. Because it looks like a pumpkin and pumpkins are food. Similarly, a plushie of a strawberry would still be food. Because that's what it resembles. Correct me if I'm wrong about that, but I've been under the impression that that's how tagging here works.

okay, but for tagging purposes people searching the food tag are going to want posts containing food, and reasonably, they wouldn't expect to get a whole bunch of posts that contain jack-o'-lanterns. the problem right now is that every year the food and food_creature tags are going to get flooded by a bunch of mostly irrelevant posts containing carved pumpkins.

for tagging purposes I don't think that we should be tagging Jack-o'-Lanterns should be tagged with food, and because how implications work they inevitably will be. if we want to we can add -> food implications to some/all other of the tags that imply fruit.

darryus said:
okay, but for tagging purposes people searching the food tag are going to want posts containing food, and reasonably, they wouldn't expect to get a whole bunch of posts that contain jack-o'-lanterns. the problem right now is that every year the food and food_creature tags are going to get flooded by a bunch of mostly irrelevant posts containing carved pumpkins.

for tagging purposes I don't think that we should be tagging Jack-o'-Lanterns should be tagged with food, and because how implications work they inevitably will be. if we want to we can add -> food implications to some/all other of the tags that imply fruit.

That makes no sense to me because pumpkins are still food. So if you de-implicate fruit from food, wouldn't pumpkin just get implicated to food then anyways? Which... would defeat the entire purpose. If someone's looking for food but not jack-o'-lanterns, then just... remove those from your search or blacklist them. I don't see any reason to remove fruit -> food literally just because of a single tag in the group, no matter how common of a tag it is. Maybe there's some other, better solution, but I really don't think these de-implications are it.

blacklisting pumpkin or jack-o'-lantern or halloween dosn't solve the problem. the problem isn't seeing carved pumpkins, it's not even seeing carved pumpkins on posts with the food tag. the problem is that it's much more difficult to find posts that actually contain food / food creatures for over a month per year. if I were to search for food I don't not want to see holloween-themed, I don't not want to see carved pumpkins, I just want to see all of the posts that actually have food in them.

posts tagged with pumpkin make up 22.6% all posts tagged fruit, ~88% of posts tagged with pumpkin contain jack-o'-lanterns and ~18% of those posts contain actual food, which was usually, but not always, candy. if I was searching for food I'd still want to find these posts, I wouldn't want a bunch of posts don't have food, and I wouldn't want to change my search terms so that I'd miss that 18% of posts that I do want to see.

darryus said:
blacklisting pumpkin or jack-o'-lantern or halloween dosn't solve the problem. the problem isn't seeing carved pumpkins, it's not even seeing carved pumpkins on posts with the food tag. the problem is that it's much more difficult to find posts that actually contain food / food creatures for over a month per year. if I were to search for food I don't not want to see holloween-themed, I don't not want to see carved pumpkins, I just want to see all of the posts that actually have food in them.

posts tagged with pumpkin make up 22.6% all posts tagged fruit, ~88% of posts tagged with pumpkin contain jack-o'-lanterns and ~18% of those posts contain actual food, which was usually, but not always, candy. if I was searching for food I'd still want to find these posts, I wouldn't want a bunch of posts don't have food, and I wouldn't want to change my search terms so that I'd miss that 18% of posts that I do want to see.

I'm genuinely confused as to what you're saying, sorry

strikerman said:
I'm genuinely confused as to what you're saying, sorry

okay, I'm going to say everything in the first person present this time since I think that was kind of confusing typing it in a "if I was going to" tense, also I didn't quote anything so it kinda seems like I'm talking to nothing.

so, I'm looking for posts that contain food. so, I search for food. many of the posts do contain what I'd consider "food" but since we're still kind of in Halloween season and since pumpkin implies fruit and fruit implies food most of the posts contain only Jack-o'-Lanterns and don't contain anything that I'd describe as "food". I could try searching food -pumpkin or blacklisting pumpkin, but seeing pumpkins isn't my problem, my problem is seeing posts that aren't food; if I did use that search I'd be missing out on about 2575 posts from the past month that I'd actually be interested in seeing as they contained food items.

the main part of my argument is

• the food tag should contain food items
• I don't think that most users would consider Jack-o'-Lanterns/carved pumpkins to be "food items"
• I still believe most users would consider Jack-o'-Lanterns/carved pumpkins to be "fruit"
• therefore I don't think that all posts tagged with fruit should automatically also be tagged with food
• I don't have any problem with most other fruit tags having their own individual implications to food

^{also all of this extends to the living_fruit -> food_creature situation.}

darryus said:
okay, I'm going to say everything in the first person present this time since I think that was kind of confusing typing it in a "if I was going to" tense, also I didn't quote anything so it kinda seems like I'm talking to nothing.

so, I'm looking for posts that contain food. so, I search for food. many of the posts do contain what I'd consider "food" but since we're still kind of in Halloween season and since pumpkin implies fruit and fruit implies food most of the posts contain only Jack-o'-Lanterns and don't contain anything that I'd describe as "food". I could try searching food -pumpkin or blacklisting pumpkin, but seeing pumpkins isn't my problem, my problem is seeing posts that aren't food; if I did use that search I'd be missing out on about 25 posts from the past month that I'd actually be interested in seeing as they contained food items.

the main part of my argument is

• the food tag should contain food items
• I don't think that most users would consider Jack-o'-Lanterns/carved pumpkins to be "food items"
• I still believe most users would consider Jack-o'-Lanterns/carved pumpkins to be "fruit"
• therefore I don't think that all posts tagged with fruit should automatically also be tagged with food
• I don't have any problem with most other fruit tags having their own individual implications to food

^{also all of this extends to the living_fruit -> food_creature situation.}

If I carve a face into an apple, it doesn't stop being an apple.

votp said:
If I carve a face into an apple, it doesn't stop being an apple.

yeah, but if you were to shove a candle in it and leave it on your porch for several days, you're probably not going to be able to eat it.

darryus said:
yeah, but if you were to shove a candle in it and leave it on your porch for several days, you're probably not going to be able to eat it.

Same is true of an apple

strikerman said:
Same is true of an apple

I mean, yeah?
wouldn't that support my argument that not all fruit is food?

darryus said:
I mean, yeah?
wouldn't that support my argument that not all fruit is food?

You could hollow out a pie and put a candle in it, you could mix a jug of milk with barbitals, you could decorate a cake with razors, making food inedible doesn't mean it was never food in the first place.

strikerman said:
You could hollow out a pie and put a candle in it, you could mix a jug of milk with barbitals, you could decorate a cake with razors, making food inedible doesn't mean it was never food in the first place.

I feel like the differences with these are that they're far out exceptions to the <food item> -> food implications. where as with pumpkins nearly 90% of posts tagged pumpkin are shown in an inedible state.

darryus said:
yeah, but if you were to shove a candle in it and leave it on your porch for several days, you're probably not going to be able to eat it.

I see rotting fruit or moldy bread as still being food, but after a certain point where a food item becomes unrecognisable, then it would not be food.

darryus said:
I feel like the differences with these are that they're far out exceptions to the <food item> -> food implications. where as with pumpkins nearly 90% of posts tagged pumpkin are shown in an inedible state.

So are 90% of potato posts, should we make potatoes no longer a food item?

If I look for food, I won't be surprised to find wax fruit and halloween carved pumpkins in search results. Pumpkin is food. Wax apple is essentially a food item, like Winnie the Poof cosplaying Naruto is Naruto (as well as Winnie the Poof).

I would refine my search to food -halloween to weed out the jack'o'lanterns.

Perhaps we should have a tag along the lines of decorative_food to provide for more efficient weeding.

darryus said:
blacklisting pumpkin or jack-o'-lantern or halloween dosn't solve the problem. the problem isn't seeing carved pumpkins, it's not even seeing carved pumpkins on posts with the food tag. the problem is that it's much more difficult to find posts that actually contain food / food creatures for over a month per year. if I were to search for food I don't not want to see holloween-themed, I don't not want to see carved pumpkins, I just want to see all of the posts that actually have food in them.

posts tagged with pumpkin make up 22.6% all posts tagged fruit, ~88% of posts tagged with pumpkin contain jack-o'-lanterns and ~18% of those posts contain actual food, which was usually, but not always, candy. if I was searching for food I'd still want to find these posts, I wouldn't want a bunch of posts don't have food, and I wouldn't want to change my search terms so that I'd miss that 18% of posts that I do want to see.

Wouldn't just blacklisting jack-o'-lantern -candy suffice in those situations? Correct me if I'm wrong on that--this isn't exactly something I search for.

urielfrys said:
Perhaps we should have a tag along the lines of decorative_food to provide for more efficient weeding.

+1 to this.

I can see the argument for deimplication here, though: We have, for example, a policy that a character does not imply species, because the character may be cosplayed or drawn as anthro, or in other ways as of other species. Hence, if an apple is presented as made of wax, or it is a poisonous fruit, should it likewise be left untagged as food?

It is, however, a different issue, whether or not the Gingerbread Man or Jack'o'Lantern should be tagged as (living) food or not.

Furthermore, if Jack'o'Lantern were to be considered as undead, would it still be considered as living food? Do we have undead_food for this?

urielfrys said:
Wax apple is essentially a food item, like Winnie the Poof cosplaying Naruto is Naruto (as well as Winnie the Poof).

Who in the world is Winnie the Poof?

The bulk update request #361 (forum #298955) has been rejected by @Millcore.