(Starting this off in General, feel free to correct where this discussion would belong).

So, I discovered this conundrum while reviewing some comments I made, specifically saying stuff like "... blacklist loli and shota", but I've come to the realization that we don't have tags for intersex "children". As of now, Loli implies female, but this causes a dilemma when someone attempts to tag a female-looking dickgirl an leaves it at that; the gynomorph is not a female on our site, and yet loli would be the closest we'd have to tag them by.

This leads me to wonder a couple of things. First off: should we make implications from loli and shota? Or should we try to make new tags, such as "hermloli" or "hermshota" (clearly not good suggestions, but that's all I can come up with right now). Is this even a problem?

It's an interesting question. Loli/shota implies young characters. Such characters will typically be flat-chested and somewhat androgynous. I could imagine young gynomorph and andromorph characters causing a lot of fights, "it's a gynomorph loli!" vs "it's a shota!" and "it's an andromorph shota!" vs "it's a loli!". A herm would be a bit more clear since both bits would need to be visible, but given younger characters tend to be more androgynous, could you easily distinguish a loli-herm from a shota-herm?

I believe that loli and shota should not imply female and male respectively. They refer simply to feminine or masculine bodies, not to genitalia.
Reason: a "futa" (in e621, that term is aliased to intersex since it could be used for gynomorph or herm) would still be called a loli in Japanese usage, even if she was a herm with a visible pussy and penis at the same time.
By analogy, a similar situation could happen with shota.
Creating tags like "hermloli" would be an exercise in futility and should definitely be avoided.

I would like to turn the discussion to a different subject. Should we have kemoshota and kemololi tags? Kemoshota is currently aliased to cub, while kemololi is not. In my opinion, kemoshota should be its own tag.
Reason: a "kemoshota" is a "shota" cub drawn and/or animated in a "kemono" style. Likewise, a "kemololi" is a "loli" cub drawn and/or animated in a "kemono" style.
Shota and loli are respectively for masculine and feminine young characters (which is why both already imply young), drawn and/or animated in an "anime/manga-like" style, that can be anthro (in which case cub also applies), humanoid or human (which is why shota and loli should not imply cub).
Kemono is for anthro or feral characters drawn and/or animated in an "anime/manga-like" style.
Shota, loli and kemono are unfortunately massively undertagged at the moment. How does this tie into the kemoshota and kemololi issue?
Kemoshota and kemololi are terms commonly used by the Japanese furry fandom in Pixiv and Twitter. This means that taggers added it when it was explicitly mentioned in the source.
However, they were probably neglecting to add "cub", and kemoshota was not a part of the automatic blacklist, which was a problem for people who were not familiar with Japanese terms and did not want to see cub content.
If kemoshota is unaliased from and implicated to cub, the problem is solved. Kemoshota can also imply shota and kemono. Likewise, kemololi can imply kemono, loli and cub. That way, tagging is more simple and we can avoid undertagging. Besides, having a tag for something that is specific yet common (characters that are kemono, loli/shota and cub at the same time) is useful with no downsides.

I am going to write a BUR reflecting my opinions as expressed above. If anyone disagrees with my implication suggestions, please feel free to provide your own point of view and arguments towards different choices. topic #28156

_{※ I will give my personal view as a Japanese, but I will refer to outside sources, considering that I seem to be the only one Japanese....I wish there were other Japanese in this situation....}

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If I understand correctly, they mean as follows :
- Loli = Female characters younger than a certain age
- Shota = Male characters younger than a certain age
↓
- KemoLoli = Kemono + Loli = female cub(kemono)
- Kemoshota = Kemono + Shota = male cub(kemono)
※Cub = young furry ｜ ※Kemono = "Japanese furry"?
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The tag Kemono already exists in e6.
It means There is a distinction between Kemono and Furry here. 　(( ← We Japanese don't think much about it though. ))
So, We can have KemoShota and KemoLoli tags.
Because I think they are a genre, just like we call "Japanese Furry" as Kemono.

On the Loli or Shota page of the wiki, it says
＞＞＞ Note: This should only be tagged for explicit and sexually suggestive content.
However, KemoLoli or KemoShota just means "Kemono girl or boy", so they can be used at any time, including Rating:S.
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Therefore, I think they should be as follows :
- Implication KemoLoli ⇒ Kemono
- Implication KemoShota ⇒ Kemono
- Implication KemoLoli ⇒ cub
- Implication KemoShota ⇒ cub
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I wonder what we should do about "implication loli -> female"...

kurogi_foxsiv said:
On the Loli or Shota page of the wiki, it says
＞＞＞ Note: This should only be tagged for explicit and sexually suggestive content.
However, KemoLoli or KemoShota just means "Kemono girl or boy", so they can be used at any time, including Rating:S.

In this case, I believe that the wiki is wrong. In common Japanese usage, loli and shota can be used for rating:safe content, right?

I wonder what we should do about "implication loli -> female"...

Would you call a young "futanari" a loli? If the answer is yes, then the implication should be removed. For example, post #2163868

gattonero2001 said:
In this case, I believe that the wiki is wrong. In common Japanese usage, loli and shota can be used for rating:safe content, right?

To most westerners, loli and shota imply a level of lewdness or outright sexual context. If it just meant young_female and young_male, they'd be aliased as such (if not invalidated or removed, since I don't think tags like that are generally acceptable). Much like how kemono, anime, and manga really just mean furry, animation, and comic book in japanese, but to a western audience it carries additional implications (being in a japanese art style, in those three cases).

watsit said:
To most westerners, loli and shota imply a level of lewdness or outright sexual context. If it just meant young_female and young_male, they'd be aliased as such (if not invalidated or removed, since I don't think tags like that are generally acceptable). Much like how kemono, anime, and manga really just mean furry, animation, and comic book in japanese, but to a western audience it carries additional implications (being in a japanese art style, in those three cases).

I am a "westerner" and for me the only implication carried by loli and shota is, in parallel to kemono/anime/manga, the iconic art style.

First time for the inclusion of that phrase in the loli wiki:

https://e621.net/wiki_page_versions?search%5Bwiki_page_id%5D=258

https://e621.net/wiki_page_versions/12316

2014-11-07 04:42 by Genjar

First time for the inclusion of that phrase in the shota wiki:

https://e621.net/wiki_page_versions?search%5Bwiki_page_id%5D=257

https://e621.net/wiki_page_versions/41689

2017-06-12 23:33 by Ratte

No reason was given in both cases. I believe that the issue should be reopened for discussion.

gattonero2001 said:
I am a "westerner" and for me the only implication carried by loli and shota is, in parallel to kemono/anime/manga, the iconic art style.

A quick look at wikipedia shows:

• Lolita (term), a term for a sexually attractive, seductive or precocious young girl
• Lolicon, a Japanese portmanteau of "Lolita complex", used to describe an attraction to young girls as well as fictional works with a related theme

With shota/shotacon being the male equivalent. It's enough that Cloudfare seems to try filtering it out, so I do think there is enough of a sexual connotation to those terms to most English speakers.

watsit said:
A quick look at wikipedia shows:
With shota/shotacon being the male equivalent. It's enough that Cloudfare seems to try filtering it out, so I do think there is enough of a sexual connotation to those terms to most English speakers.

I will remove the implication kemololi -> loli from my BUR and leave that discussion for another topic.

gattonero2001 said:
In this case, I believe that the wiki is wrong. In common Japanese usage, loli and shota can be used for rating:safe content, right?

I'd like to say, "Of course". They just need to have a "youthful appearance". 　
( So there are cases like this. - Their real age is older, but they look younger )

But that's in Japan, and I can't yet judge how it should be used in e6. ( I guess it includes the impression @Watsit mentioned. )

Would you call a young "futanari" a loli? If the answer is yes, then the implication should be removed. For example, post #2163868

Hmm, I'm not sure about this.　There is no appropriate word.
It should be determined whether futa / herm is male or female. ((In my opinion : andromorph ⇒ KemoShota(male) , gynomorph ⇒ KemoLoli(female) ))

kurogi_foxsiv said:
Hmm, I'm not sure about this.　There is no appropriate word.
It should be determined whether futa / herm is male or female. ((In my opinion : andromorph ⇒ KemoShota(male) , gynomorph ⇒ KemoLoli(female) ))

As far as e6 tagging is concerned, herm is distinct from male and female (and a futa can be either a herm or gynomorph, with or without a vagina). Most people would consider a herm to be visually more toward the feminine side and default to feminine pronouns like "she/her", and consequently the maleherm tag was created for a herm that's visually more toward the masculine side, but they're not strictly male or female. I could see andromorph ⇒ KemoShota(male) and gynomorph ⇒ KemoLoli(female) in a general colloquial sense, but for tagging purposes, I think (kemo)shota and (kemo)loli should be strictly male and female, and not include intersex.

watsit said:...for tagging purposes, I think (kemo)shota and (kemo)loli should be strictly male and female, and not include intersex.

"for tagging purposes", that's important.　Our tagging must be done strictly.
Then there should be a tag for intersex....right, that's why this topic was created.

I've only thought of creating new tags such as "hermloli" and "hermshota", Or "Young_herm".

kurogi_foxsiv said:
"for tagging purposes", that's important.　Our tagging must be done strictly.
Then there should be a tag for intersex....right, that's why this topic was created.

I've only thought of creating new tags such as "hermloli" and "hermshota", Or "Young_herm".

In that case, should loli imply female and shota imply male?

gattonero2001 said:
In that case, should loli imply female and shota imply male?

Yes, I believe so.

kurogi_foxsiv said:
Yes, I believe so.

Okay, I will change the BUR again.

If you agree with the "Little Tail Bronx BUR" in its current state, please change that vote as well.