cub_on_cub has a specific meaning for people looking for cubxcub encounters in art. This is especially important since a large portion of cub art involves age_difference encounters. Since there is no “same_age” or “close_in_age” tag, cub_on_cub would work well as its own tag since “cub” is insufficiently specific for this query.
Topic: Unalias cub_on_cub -> cub
Posted under Tag Alias and Implication Suggestions
Doesn't it work to exclude age_difference? cub sex -age_difference
watsit said:
Doesn't it work to exclude age_difference? cub sex -age_difference
In my experience that’s not specific enough because that doesn’t eliminate things like ferals, tentacles, and various other things like robots or anything else personified. There needs to be a way to specifically search for cub_on_cub that doesn’t involve some long list of eliminations.
just no
It feels like that should be an implication rather than an alias.
9001 said:
just no
Reason?
pup said:
It feels like that should be an implication rather than an alias.
Definitely. Cubs are still involved, just in a more extreme scenario. cub_on_cub could also be an explicit locked to force the cub rating:e blacklist to work on them without needing an additional cub_on_cub separately.
The bulk update request #1241 is active.
remove alias cub_on_cub (0) -> cub (0)
Reason: This was brought up in forum topic #28375, but the BUR wasn't created.
cub_on_cub would include any sexual or romantic behavior between young characters
The tag string cub sex -age_difference, as it was suggested in said forum post, wouldn't work like cub_on_cub.
age_difference isn't only used for adult + young. For instance, teen + child, is also an age difference.
EDIT: The bulk update request #1241 (forum #315540) has been approved by @gattonero2001.
Updated by auto moderator
dubsthefox said:
cub_on_cub would include any sexual or romantic behavior between young characters
Wouldn't that be young_on_young? Cub implies more than just being young, it also means being some kind of non-human(oid) animal-based creature. Having a tag just for cub_on_cub seems a bit of an overshoot, and would make for confusing situations like cub_on_young, or adult_on_young vs adult_on_cub.
watsit said:
Wouldn't that be young_on_young? Cub implies more than just being young, it also means being some kind of non-human(oid) animal-based creature. Having a tag just for cub_on_cub seems a bit of an overshoot, and would make for confusing situations like cub_on_young, or adult_on_young vs adult_on_cub.
Maybe young_on_young would be best removed, so that the young tag can be kept as a catch-all, and then the more specific tags that imply young could be used to create the pairing tags (ex: cub/cub, adult/cub, cub/teenager, etc). I also say that we should use the slash separators so as not to imply dominance or penetration (ex: I feel like adult_on_cub implies an adult penetrating a cub, or at least taking an active role).
taggin-dragon said:
Maybe young_on_young would be best removed, so that the young tag can be kept as a catch-all, and then the more specific tags that imply young could be used to create the pairing tags (ex: cub/cub, adult/cub, cub/teenager, etc).
Cub is just young + non-human(oid). If young isn't a good tag for pairing characters, cub wouldn't be either. cub/cub is just young/young with them both being non-human(oid). A cub/teenager pairing could also be cub/cub. But having cub/* tags makes for problems when you add human(oid) characters to the mix. Every cub/* or */cub tag would need a corresponding young/* or */young tag for young human(oid) characters to contrast young non-human(oid) characters, then you get into questions like if cub/* should imply young/* since cub characters are young characters, or if cubs shouldn't be tagged with young/* despite being young, so that only young human(oids) are.
watsit said:
Cub is just young + non-human(oid). If young isn't a good tag for pairing characters, cub wouldn't be either. cub/cub is just young/young with them both being non-human(oid). A cub/teenager pairing could also be cub/cub. But having cub/* tags makes for problems when you add human(oid) characters to the mix. Every cub/* or */cub tag would need a corresponding young/* or */young tag for young human(oid) characters to contrast young non-human(oid) characters, then you get into questions like if cub/* should imply young/* since cub characters are young characters, or if cubs shouldn't be tagged with young/* despite being young, so that only young human(oids) are.
I think creating implications for it doesn't sound that bad, tbh. And searching for "cub_on_cub" is way more comfortable than searching for: cub ~sex ~romantic -mature_* -humanoid -human -alien -living_machine -animate_inanimate have in mind age_difference would also count for teenager + child, not just for young + adult
Having a tag like cub for other body forms, would also be comfortable, but I can't think of a good one
Remember, Young includes teenagers. Cub and Child are "extreme young". Some people are fine with teen but not with child/cub.
watsit said:
Cub is just young + non-human(oid). If young isn't a good tag for pairing characters, cub wouldn't be either. cub/cub is just young/young with them both being non-human(oid). A cub/teenager pairing could also be cub/cub. But having cub/* tags makes for problems when you add human(oid) characters to the mix. Every cub/* or */cub tag would need a corresponding young/* or */young tag for young human(oid) characters to contrast young non-human(oid) characters, then you get into questions like if cub/* should imply young/* since cub characters are young characters, or if cubs shouldn't be tagged with young/* despite being young, so that only young human(oids) are.
I think it's worth considering what has been done in the case of gender tags. andromorph, gynomorph, herm, and maleherm all imply intersex, and their pairing tags imply various intersex pairing tags as well (such as andromorph/male implying intersex/male). Also worth noting is that tags such as andromorph/intersex alias to intersex/intersex, which could inform how we approach the situations you point out.
furrin_gok said:
Remember, Young includes teenagers. Cub and Child are "extreme young". Some people are fine with teen but not with child/cub.
The wiki as of now says that cub applies to any underage non-human(oid) character, but I more or less agree with this. I feel like the usual conception of cub is pre-pubescent characters, and it would probably benefit this situation to adopt that outlook for tagging.
(side note: also according to the wiki, a child is any character who appears 3-12 years old)
We also should consider how loli and shota play into this, if at all. Doing some wildcard searches with them in the tag listing, people don't seem to use them in the same way that they use/want to use cub (ex: there's no such thing as loli_domination in the same way there's cub_domination, there aren't any x_on_y pairing tags, etc), so we could simply let it remain that way. If anyone has better ideas, I'm listening, though.
watsit said:
Cub is just young + non-human(oid).
furrin_gok said:
Remember, Young includes teenagers. Cub and Child are "extreme young". Some people are fine with teen but not with child/cub.
taggin-dragon said:
The wiki as of now says that cub applies to any underage non-human(oid) character, but I more or less agree with [Furrin Gok].
I think the biggest problem here is that so many more people are cool with the upper-end of teens than they are with prepubescent characters or even younger teens, and so there's community resistance to applying cub to older-but-still-underage characters. With teenager so under-utilised and messy in its ranging between child edgecase and adult edgecase + people tagging characters based on lore contexts (including 18-19 age statement) and not appearance there's not really another filter-point for it.
magnuseffect said:
I think the biggest problem here is that so many more people are cool with the upper-end of teens than they are with prepubescent characters or even younger teens, and so there's community resistance to applying cub to older-but-still-underage characters. With teenager so under-utilised and messy in its ranging between child edgecase and adult edgecase + people tagging characters based on lore contexts (including 18-19 age statement) and not appearance there's not really another filter-point for it.
IMO, as far as that goes, we should establish whether or not cub really does mean all underage non-human(oid)s or if it's limited to pre-pubescents. I personally lean towards the latter, since (according to the wiki) we also limit shota and loli to pre-pubescents, but then I've also seen shota and loli applied to pubescent underage characters.
taggin-dragon said:
IMO, as far as that goes, we should establish whether or not cub really does mean all underage non-human(oid)s or if it's limited to pre-pubescents.
That's not something that can easily happen via the forums; from what I've seen administration likes as little involvement in underage discussion as they can get by with.
There will not be a big official re-straightening of underage tagging.
It would make more sense to limit cub to prepubescent characters as cub can also include ferals. The “teen” concept just doesn’t apply to them as there’s no “past pubescence but below the legal age of consent” concept with them.
I’ve also mentioned before that I think teen should be replaced with adolescent. It actually refers specifically to pubescent or post-pubescent characters who are still below the age of legal consent or legal adulthood. That’s what teen is attempting to do, but this is more specific as it doesn’t rely on somewhat arbitrary age numbers (a character can be 13 and still pre-pubescent, while characters age 18-19 get tagged young due to the teen -> young implication even though that’s not the intended purpose of the young tag).
Bumping this for attention: I'd really like that BUR seven comments in to be approved personally but if there are still more "Nos" then it does need to actually be stated why. 9001 never did say why he said no.
"cub_on_cub" is currently aliased to "cub" it seems when it might instead better imply cub. That being said, since it's been aliased for the time being and "young_on_young" already exists, perhaps that is a more appropriate tag for "cub_on_cub" to be aliased to. I'm making this suggestion because I was tagging earlier and went to tag "cub_on_cub" but had to go searching through the forums to find what other tag to use instead. "young_on_young" is more powerful since it's not specific to cubs and the species can be searched for in addition to the dynamic if people wanted to specify.
That being said, "adult_on_cub" also exists and also is not as big of a generalization as something like "adult_on_young". The "*_on_cub" sort of tags don't technically work for something where younger characters (the "cub" in this case) are shotas or lolis, since shota and loli don't imply that the characters are furry cubs, whereas "*_on_young" would work for both cubs and non-cub species. Otherwise, if we're specifying the species in a tag about the dynamic, this would set the precedent for "*_on_shota" and "*_on_loli" tags which sounds like a mess to manage. Perhaps this could be discussed further.
For now, I think it would help taggers if "cub_on_cub" was aliased to "young_on_young" instead of just "cub", because "cub" describes a character type while "young_on_young" describes a species-neutral dynamic.
Updated
bapho_met said:
For now, I think it would help taggers if "cub_on_cub" was aliased to "young_on_young" instead of just "cub", because "cub" describes a character type while "young_on_young" describes a species-neutral dynamic.
That works for me.
The bulk update request #1241 (forum #315540) has been approved by @gattonero2001.
The bulk update request #4140 is active.
create alias cub_on_cub (0) -> young_on_young (9133)
Reason: Setting up a better alias since cub_on_cub is a bit too specific about the two characters.
EDIT: The bulk update request #4140 (forum #357417) has been approved by @gattonero2001.
Updated by auto moderator
The bulk update request #4140 (forum #357417) has been approved by @gattonero2001.
magnuseffect said:
I think the biggest problem here is that so many more people are cool with the upper-end of teens
And with characters who are at the upper end of "teenager", the tag becomes pretty un-TWYS
Is she 17 or 23?
maplebytes said:
And with characters who are at the upper end of "teenager", the tag becomes pretty un-TWYS
The young tag has had this problem since forever. Technically I don't think cub has ever had a harsher maximum age requirement either.
maplebytes said:
And with characters who are at the upper end of "teenager", the tag becomes pretty un-TWYSIs she 17 or 23?
TWYS wise, I think that should be tagged "mature_female young_(lore)"