The tag alias #50867 succubus -> demon has been rejected.

Reason:

EDIT: The tag alias succubus -> demon (forum #305072) has been rejected by @Millcore.

Please provide a reason.

incubus is he male equivalent of a succubus and is aliased to demon, so it makes sense for succubus to be as well.

Good point.
'Female sex demon' is pretty subjective by TWYS, should just alias this to demon.

Succubus and Incubus are based on the Jewish mythology of Lilin, "Night spirits" who would attack people (At that point, men, but Cubi were modified to attack both) in a sexual nature. Presently, Lilin is aliased to demon itself, but I think it could be worth having a tag that centers around this concept, so unaliasing Lilin and then aliasing Incubus and Succubus to Lilin would help.

I think a more robust definition for lilin (along with succubus and incubus) would need to be written if this tag is utilized.

Asides from the sexual aspect to the tag, I'm not sure how to visually distinguish between a lilin and a demon. Would it strictly apply to humanoid depictions, or would it apply to anthro characters and other body types as well? Would any sexualized demon character be applicable for being tagged as a lilin? What traits would a demon character need in order to be considered a lilin?

I'm currently in favor of aliasing away succubus, since succubus seems indistinguishable from any sexualized demon character in the tag's current format.

I know this was already an alias once, does anybody know when it was deleted or why?

faucet said:
I know this was already an alias once, does anybody know when it was deleted or why?

Here: https://e621.net/tag_aliases/24293

Yet a few months later they say in topic #24704 that it was 'aliased for a reason'. To be frank, I can't make much sense of many of the (un)aliases and implications that they made without discussion. We've had to undo something like fifty of them by now.

Maybe it should be a lore tag? Some posts have depictions of characters that are not outwardly demonic in appearance but are apparently demonic in nature. Case-and-Point: Vivzmind. So it would stand to reason that certain details regarding the subspecies would only be revealed by dialogue, character interactions, etcetera.

foolysh said:
Maybe it should be a lore tag? Some posts have depictions of characters that are not outwardly demonic in appearance but are apparently demonic in nature. Case-and-Point: Vivzmind. So it would stand to reason that certain details regarding the subspecies would only be revealed by dialogue, character interactions, etcetera.

Yeah, that makes sense. It's something I'd like to know, but it's not necessarily something visible.

foolysh said:
Maybe it should be a lore tag? Some posts have depictions of characters that are not outwardly demonic in appearance but are apparently demonic in nature. Case-and-Point: Vivzmind. So it would stand to reason that certain details regarding the subspecies would only be revealed by dialogue, character interactions, etcetera.

How would the tag work? Would it be a character trait, a species trait, an activity trait, ...? For instance, would all pics of loona (vivzmind) be tagged succubus_(lore) regardless of what they look like or what they're doing, because they're a sexually-appealing feminine demon? Or would they need to be actively seducing someone? Would they need to be visibly demonic, or as long as someone says they're a demon? Could get extra tricky with certain characters, like irbeth, who can be either male or female with more or less apparent demonic traits... there's nothing saying demons can't change how they look, or that they have to be fixed to one apparent sex. Seems to me it'd end up being too random or vague to be a useful tag (such information can always go into a character or species wiki entry, if needed).

watsit said:
How would the tag work? Would it be a character trait, a species trait, an activity trait, ...? For instance, would all pics of loona (vivzmind) be tagged succubus_(lore) regardless of what they look like or what they're doing, because they're a sexually-appealing feminine demon? Or would they need to be actively seducing someone? Would they need to be visibly demonic, or as long as someone says they're a demon? Could get extra tricky with certain characters, like irbeth, who can be either male or female with more or less apparent demonic traits... there's nothing saying demons can't change how they look, or that they have to be fixed to one apparent sex. Seems to me it'd end up being too random or vague to be a useful tag (such information can always go into a character or species wiki entry, if needed).

A lore tag just gets applied in general, I believe. Unless the artist's intention is separate from the standard lore, such as "They are a cupid here," then the lore follows their norm, which is that they are a succubus, even if they're sitting in a diner enjoying a burger.

and incubus_(lore) might be a bit too specific due to adding in gender, but lilin_(lore) wouldn't have that problem.

Even going by modern usage of the terms succubus and incubus, this alias doesn't make sense, nor does the already-existing incubus -> demon one. That'n ought to be de-aliased, so that both tags could be implicated, instead. Or, perhaps aliased to lilin, like Furrin is suggesting, so THAT can be implicated to demon? Dunno'. But either way, aliasing succubus and incubus to demon, given their modern-day usage, would be like aliasing lion, tiger, and leopard to pantherine. Or great_dane, dalmatian, and shih_tzu to domestic_dog. Or...well, any set of species being aliased to a larger group they are mere members of, instead of simply being implicated.

jacob said:
But either way, aliasing succubus and incubus to demon, given their modern-day usage, would be like aliasing lion, tiger, and leopard to pantherine. Or great_dane, dalmatian, and shih_tzu to domestic_dog. Or...well, any set of species being aliased to a larger group they are mere members of, instead of simply being implicated.

Problem is, succubus/incubus aren't TWYS, unlike lion/tiger/leopard. Demon is barely TWYS (playing on the trope that horns, red and/or black coloring, and firey/underworld themes = demonic, and demonic character = demon). There is no way to visually distinguish a succubus/incubus, because those terms are about what the demon does rather than looks like. Succubus and incubus are demons and visually indistinguishable from them.

If you have a typical anthro having sex that the creator says is an incubus/succubus/lilin, what does tagging that achieve? Even as a lore tag, I don't see where that helps any more than simply mentioning it in the character's wiki entry.

watsit said:
If you have a typical anthro having sex that the creator says is an incubus/succubus/lilin, what does tagging that achieve? Even as a lore tag, I don't see where that helps any more than simply mentioning it in the character's wiki entry.

I agree that from TWYS's standpoint, the succubus/incubus tags would be unusable. But as far as a lore tag... Personally, I'd find "species-based" lore tags useful for creatures that aren't really definable by TWYS's standards. It'd provide a way of potentially searching for more of a type of character you might like--which is useful when there's characters out there that are succubi/incubi or some other undefinable species, but don't look like it, because again, it can't be defined. So basically for the people who might want to look for the characterizations of a species. Or for people who know a specific character is supposed to be a succubus/whatever else but can't remember enough to search them without literally searching succubus.

...Or at least, that's my take on it, because sometimes I find a character's background and lore more interesting than just a standalone picture, and this sort of information isn't always searchable by the description. ...Although I entirely understand if the staff deems these kinds of lore tags unnecessary, given the site's focus on art. It'd just be nice to have, I guess.

Folks interested in utilizing lilin/succubus/incubus as tags should first write a rough draft for their wikis here, then edit and refine these wiki definitions. Clear and functional wiki definitions are needed first if these tags are going to be used.

Making use of these tags as Lore category tags (lilin_(lore)/succubus_(lore)/incubus_(lore)) does appear to be a viable alternative, but I feel these will still need wiki definitions for the average user to reference.

d.d.m. said:
Folks interested in utilizing lilin/succubus/incubus as tags should first write a rough draft for their wikis here, then edit and refine these wiki definitions. Clear and functional wiki definitions are needed first if these tags are going to be used.

Making use of these tags as Lore category tags (lilin_(lore)/succubus_(lore)/incubus_(lore)) does appear to be a viable alternative, but I feel these will still need wiki definitions for the average user to reference.

Okay, I defined Lilin, sort of. Now someone just needs to establish the lore tags and their respective implications. If they want to.

While this wiki helps with the lore and mythology behind lilin, it still needs a clear and concise description for users on how to utilize lilin on this site (specifically, how to determine if a character in a post should be tagged as a lilin). I've added a small section to the wiki for this purpose, but there are some important lingering questions on how to use this tag. While answering these questions may not be necessary for tagging established characters like loona_(vivzmind) as a lilin (particularly if lilin becomes a Lore category tag), they will be important for developing the wiki and preventing the lilin tag from functionally becoming a duplicate of the demon tag.

• Should lilin be used only for humanoid characters, or should it be used for all body types (anthro, feral, taur, etc).
• What kind of traits (physical or behavioral) must a demon character exhibit in order to be considered a lilin, a succubus, or an incubus.
• Would any sexualized demon character be considered a lilin? Would any demon character engaged in sexual activity be considered a lilin?

The tag alias succubus -> demon (forum #305072) has been rejected by @Millcore.