I was recently cleaning up the gender/sex tags on several images of a trans male character. I was tagging all of the appropriate images trans_man_(lore), but noticed that the original uploader tagged an image where no gender specific genitalia were visible as male_(lore). Is this the correct usage of the tag? I read the wiki page of both male_(lore) and trans_man_(lore) and I am still confused as to when male_(lore) would be used and not trans_man_(lore).

Here are some of the posts I was editing for reference:
post #2970778
This is the one the original uploader tagged male_(lore)
post #2653513

I assume the male_(lore) and female_(lore) tags are ONLY used for characters that are BOTH:
A) ambiguous_gender
And
B) not canonically transgender (otherwise you would use one of the trans lore tags)

That being said, is the lore not that the first Jolteon is trans-male but the second Jolteon is cis-male? At the Inkbunny sources, only the first one is tagged "trans male". So, I think they might be different Jolteons. The artist does draw some Jolteons with a penis and some with a pussy.

crocogator said:
I assume the male_(lore) and female_(lore) tags are ONLY used for characters that are BOTH:
A) ambiguous_gender
And
B) not canonically transgender (otherwise you would use one of the trans lore tags)

That being said, is the lore not that the first Jolteon is trans-male but the second Jolteon is cis-male? At the Inkbunny sources, only the first one is tagged "trans male". So, I think they might be different Jolteons. The artist does draw some Jolteons with a penis and some with a pussy.

That makes sense. Although, if this is correct, I think the wiki should be edited to make it more clear.
The artist has drawn very similar looking jolteons with male, female, and herm genitalia. I assumed that is was supposed to be the same character with the genitals swapped around (maybe a sona/self insert character since the artist's name is JolteonTravis and they use what appears to be this character as their pfp on Twitter), but I didn't tag trans male on ones where the artist didn't specify that they were trans. I think I tagged it correctly, but I'll go double check to make sure.

Speaking of herm, what about this image? I know that this character identifies as male since the image is tagged as intersex_male on Inkbunny. Would male_(lore) be used here?
post #2638601

crocogator said:
I assume the male_(lore) and female_(lore) tags are ONLY used for characters that are BOTH:

I'm sorry to say, but that's not correct. The lore tags were created as a compromise to all the users screaming and shouting that their character's being "misgendered" in the post, when TWYS is only meant to represent the visual gender present in the image, and not the canonical gender of a character. Ergo, they are used whenever the TWYS tags contradict the character's canonical gender. If a character is canonically female, but appears to be a male or gynomorph (etc.), then by TWYS they get tagged the visual gender and by TWYK (Tag What You Know) they get tagged their canonical gender, in this case female_(lore).

The reason we need the contradiction is to avoid redundancy. The lore tags exist to "correct" e6 on stuff that involve TWYS, or with tags that only work with TWYK like incest; to add the lore tags to a post when the character's gender is already "correct" is redundant, and using it like that worsens the lore tag by watering down the results you'd expect to get.

Now, as for the trans tags, I don't know anything about how they should be used. A staff member would probably know, what I do feel is that they're being overused and tagged whenever they're redundant.

siral_exan said:
A bunch of stuff…

In this instance, I think a lore tag is appropriate (at least for the first image) because the artist was *very* adamant that these characters were canonically male on Twitter. So should I just change the trans_male_(lore) tags to male_(lore)? Is trans_man_(lore) just not used? From how you describe the usage of male_(lore), these tags just seem redundant…

siral_exan said:
I'm sorry to say, but that's not correct. The lore tags were created as a compromise to all the users screaming and shouting that their character's being "misgendered" in the post, when TWYS is only meant to represent the visual gender present in the image, and not the canonical gender of a character. Ergo, they are used whenever the TWYS tags contradict the character's canonical gender. If a character is canonically female, but appears to be a male or gynomorph (etc.), then by TWYS they get tagged the visual gender and by TWYK (Tag What You Know) they get tagged their canonical gender, in this case female_(lore).

I'm pretty sure the male_(lore), female_(lore), etc, tags are for when the visual indicators of a character's sex don't match the character's canonical physical sex. e.g. a character appears to have just breasts and penis gets tagged gynomorph, but if the character canonically has a vagina too that we can't see in the image, it would also be tagged herm_(lore). Or if a character is canonically male, but is super girly and we can't see their penis, they may get tagged ambiguous_gender or female, along with male_(lore). Or a scalie with a genital slit that looks like a vagina, or an avian with a cloaca, may get tagged ambiguous or female when they're actually male. These are about their physical sex, not their gender identity. Gender identity is handled with the trans tags, which are used when it doesn't match their physical sex.

watsit said:
I'm pretty sure the male_(lore), female_(lore), etc, tags are for when the visual indicators of a character's sex don't match the character's canonical physical sex. e.g. a character appears to have just breasts and penis gets tagged gynomorph, but if the character canonically has a vagina too that we can't see in the image, it would also be tagged herm_(lore). Or if a character is canonically male, but is super girly and we can't see their penis, they may get tagged ambiguous_gender or female, along with male_(lore). Or a scalie with a genital slit that looks like a vagina, or an avian with a cloaca, may get tagged ambiguous or female when they're actually male. These are about their physical sex, not their gender identity. Gender identity is handled with the trans tags, which are used when it doesn't match their physical sex.

What are you trying to say here? Everything you just said was a more complicated way to say what I just said, and I already admitted that I don't know how the trans tags work around here. I'm sorry, but I wasn't there to see the trans tags get added to the lore category, all I know is that if for any reason, any whatsoever, a character does not look like their canonical gender, they get their lore gender tagged on top of their TWYS gender tag.

siral_exan said:
What are you trying to say here? Everything you just said was a more complicated way to say what I just said, and I already admitted that I don't know how the trans tags work around here.

You were talking about a character's gender, with people being upset that their characters are being "misgendered" (e.g. a trans man being tagged female, because they have a female body but identify as a man and use male pronouns). I and CrocoGator were talking about physical sex. Though CrocoGator was a bit inaccurate that male_(lore) can only apply when they're tagged ambiguous_gender; that's often the case, but it can also apply when they're tagged female due to looking very girly or appear to have breasts that were intended to be pecs or moobs, but the idea was right. male_(lore) would apply when the character is canonically physically male, but their appearance is indeterminate or suggests something other than male.

In SecretFox's first example, for instance, I don't think male_(lore) would apply since they are clearly physically female and not intended to be physically male (unless that's supposed to be a genital slit hiding a penis), but would be tagged trans_man_(lore) since they use male pronouns. The second example is ambiguous since the artist keeps saying the character is male but we can't actually see if the appear male or not. Doesn't help that the character is sometimes drawn male, female, or ambiguous, with the artist continually saying "character is male", making it confusing what they actually mean. Maybe they mean the character is a trans man (and is sometimes just depicted as male), or alternatively, the character occasionally gets drawn crossgender but is normally male and intended to be male most of the time.

Ah, so male_(lore) should be used in instances where the character is physically male, and identifies as such, but you can’t tell from the image because they look feminine, and trans_man_(lore) should be used when the character is physically female, but identifies as male. That makes sense

secretfox said:
Ah, so male_(lore) should be used in instances where the character is physically male, and identifies as such, but you can’t tell from the image because they look feminine, and trans_man_(lore) should be used when the character is physically female, but identifies as male. That makes sense

As far as I understand, at least. I could be mistaken, but that's how I interpreted the discussion.