The tag alias #55131 surprised_expression -> surprise has been rejected.

Reason: These tags are redundant as they refer to the same thing.

EDIT: The tag alias surprised_expression -> surprise (forum #320162) has been rejected by @NotMeNotYou.

Should be reversed. Surprise is more vague, as it can refer to an attempt to surprise or shock someone (which may or may not be successful), or an unexpected present/gift. Surprised_expression clearly indicates it's for a character having a surprised expression on their face.

watsit said:
Should be reversed. Surprise is more vague, as it can refer to an attempt to surprise or shock someone (which may or may not be successful), or an unexpected present/gift. Surprised_expression clearly indicates it's for a character having a surprised expression on their face.

It follows the format of the other expression tags. Would that mean we have to add "expression" to the end of all the others?

angry
annoyed
bored
disappointed
disgust
disturbed
embarrassed
envious
flustered
grumpy
guilty
fear
happy
jealous
love
lust
proud
sad
scared
serious
shocked
skeptical
smug
surprise
unimpressed
worried

scaliespe said:
It follows the format of the other expression tags. Would that mean we have to add "expression" to the end of all the others?

It's been brought up before. IMO, it would be beneficial to standardize on x_expression for facial expressions, since many of those can have alternate meanings. In fact, a number of the ones you listed aren't for expressions:

shocked
Shock is the intense feeling of being surprised and upset at the same time, because of a traumatic event or discovery.

A feeling of surprise and upset, which can be conveyed through mood and other visual devices, not necessarily facial expression. This can also be easily confused for electrocution or electrostimulation.

love
As a tag on e621, it's kind of vague where to put "love"; but try to focus on images and animations where characters are overtly displaying their love for each other, i.e. kissing while cartoon hearts dance above their heads, saying "I love you" to each other, etc. More or less synonymous with romantic.

More about what they're doing and what's surrounding them, rather than their facial expression.

lust
Not exactly the same as love, though the two can overlap. Lust typically lacks the depth of emotion beyond mere need for sex that love is characterized by.

Plenty of depictions of this being just characters wanting to get laid, without any set facial expression.

Much of these can be portrayed by visual means to create a mood, such as muted colors or over-saturated colors, paneling, actions, etc, without facial expressions coming into it.

I only took that list from tag_group:facial_expressions.

Regardless, it probably comes down to whether or not these actually are being mistagged or not. Quickly browsing through shocked, I didn’t see any posts depicting electrocution (that didn’t also include a shocked expression, anyway - you could see why the two would often go hand-in-hand) - nor did I see any instances of surprise that didn’t depict a character expressing a state of surprise via bodily language. At a cursory glance, it doesn’t appear like these tags are having many mistagging problems as-is.

The main issue is that this solution would require all these tags to have their aliases and implications removed and moved over to new tags. If someone writes a BUR for it, I’ll support it, but I’m not convinced that it’s necessary.

The tag alias surprised_expression -> surprise (forum #320162) has been rejected by @NotMeNotYou.

The bulk update request #6064 is active.

remove alias surprised (835) -> surprise (40793)
remove alias suprised (0) -> surprise (40793)
remove alias suprise (0) -> surprise (40793)

Reason: Recreation of alias #55131 due to the recent mass rejection.
I still believe the term is unambiguous enough on its own that adding "surprise" to the end isn't necessary.

Edit: changed to remove the surprised alias to use as the new tag name instead

EDIT: The bulk update request #6064 (forum #385324) has been approved by @slyroon.

I still think this should be reversed, as well as standardizing/aliasing all the other facial expression-based tags to use x_expression

watsit said:
I still think this should be reversed, as well as standardizing/aliasing all the other facial expression-based tags to use x_expression

As said two years ago, if someone wants to make a BUR to standardize all of them in that way, I'd be fine with that too. I don't really care which way it goes, it just needs to be standardized. I do think that way of doing it is just more work and isn't really necessary, though.

You could have surprise without an expression being visible, so if this has to be standardized, I would alias to surprise. I do think Watsit presented valid concerns, but I would like to see examples of posts which demonstrate those concerns.

diligentdragon said:
You could have surprise without an expression being visible, so if this has to be standardized, I would alias to surprise. I do think Watsit presented valid concerns, but I would like to see examples of posts which demonstrate those concerns.

That's... a good point, actually. Does post #3828481 have a "surprised expression"? The guy doesn't even have a face. But other contextual clues such as the motion_lines and the character's posture make it clear that he's surprised, even though he lacks a face.

That said, I feel like the tag name should have just been surprised rather than surprise. That sounds better to me, and is more in line with most of the other expression tags in that it's an adjective rather than a noun.

scaliespe said:
That's... a good point, actually. Does post #3828481 have a "surprised expression"? The guy doesn't even have a face. But other contextual clues such as the motion_lines and the character's posture make it clear that he's surprised, even though he lacks a face.

Is that even "surprised"? Being surprised means encountering something unexpected, but neither the visuals or even the dialog indicate being surprised. Maybe some kind of shock as a physical response to something unseen.

The bulk update request #6068 is pending approval.

create alias surprise (40793) -> surprised_expression (14938) # duplicate of has blocking transitive relationships, cannot be applied through BUR
create alias surprised_look (617) -> surprised_expression (14938)
create alias surprised_eyes (150) -> surprised_expression (14938)
create alias surprised_face (1040) -> surprised_expression (14938)
create alias angry (55667) -> angry_expression (6) # duplicate of has blocking transitive relationships, cannot be applied through BUR
create alias angry_face (1) -> angry_expression (6)
create alias angry_eyes (2) -> angry_expression (6)
create alias angry_look (1) -> angry_expression (6)
create alias annoyed (18124) -> annoyed_expression (6) # duplicate of has blocking transitive relationships, cannot be applied through BUR
create alias shocked_face (2) -> shocked_expression (6)
create alias shocked_eyes (1) -> shocked_expression (6)

Reason: As mentioned above, x_expression is a better fit for these tags. Bare tags like surprise are more ambiguous, either potentially meaning something different or by being a subjective mood one might interpret. x_expression makes it clear it's pertaining to a character's expression. x_eyes tags are included since it's rarely just the eyes that convey an expression, but the whole face (and the same eyes can convey multiple different expressions given the rest of the face or even pose).

Technically "expression" doesn't have to be confined to the face either, body language can also influence the overall expression a character is portraying, so it works best for the intent of these tags, IMO.

FYI, I left shocked off since it's easily confused for electrocution, and may need a disambiguation, or a cleanup before it can be aliased.

The bulk update request #6069 is pending approval.

remove alias suprise (0) -> surprise (40793)
remove alias surprised (835) -> surprise (40793)
remove alias suprised (0) -> surprise (40793)
remove alias anger (0) -> angry (55667)
remove alias pissed (0) -> angry (55667)
remove alias rage (0) -> angry (55667)
remove alias pissed_off (0) -> angry (55667)
remove alias mad (0) -> angry (55667)
remove implication angry_sex (1578) -> angry (55667)
remove alias irritated (0) -> annoyed (18124)

Reason: So the previous BUR can be applied

I really do not like the *_expression tags. They never should have been created. They are redundant tags people add because they appear on autocomplete under the emotion tag they were actually looking for. Yes, an emotion can be conveyed without seeing a character's face. That <5% of exceptions do not justify the existence of a subtag describing the >95% common case. Honestly, expressions do not even need to be facial. Dialogue-based expressions are still expressions. And clarifying in the tag name that emotions are "expressed" is redundant English. That's how we know to tag them at all. In fact, unexpressed emotions (suppressed anger) would be an interesting tag, and those would still get tagged with the base emotion.

The tag name should be surprised.

abadbird said:
The tag name should be surprised.

+1

abadbird said:
The tag name should be surprised.

+1

abadbird said:
I really do not like the *_expression tags. They never should have been created. They are redundant tags people add because they appear on autocomplete under the emotion tag they were actually looking for. Yes, an emotion can be conveyed without seeing a character's face. That <5% of exceptions do not justify the existence of a subtag describing the >95% common case. Honestly, expressions do not even need to be facial. Dialogue-based expressions are still expressions. And clarifying in the tag name that emotions are "expressed" is redundant English. That's how we know to tag them at all. In fact, unexpressed emotions (suppressed anger) would be an interesting tag, and those would still get tagged with the base emotion.

The tag name should be surprised.

if we do have the *_expression tags they probably should be saved for the qualities of a character's expression rather than the emotion displayed.

I rewrote my BUR to remove the surprised -> surprise alias.

sipothac said:
if we do have the *_expression tags they probably should be saved for the qualities of a character's expression rather than the emotion displayed.

That was my idea too, either that or make it invalid becourse they ain't ever gonna be tagged right without that.

sipothac said:
if we do have the *_expression tags they probably should be saved for the qualities of a character's expression rather than the emotion displayed.

I'm not sure what this means. What is "the qualities of a character's expression", and how does it differ from "the emotion displayed" in a TWYS context?

In either case, regardless if we go with x instead of x_expression for expressions, all the various x_look, x_eyes, x_face, etc, should be aliased together with it.

watsit said:
I'm not sure what this means. What is "the qualities of a character's expression", and how does it differ from "the emotion displayed" in a TWYS context?

I meant mostly for facial expressions that aren't really necessarily communicating any emotions/state directly, like cute_expression, or like frozen_expression which describes something that happened to a character's expression but isn't, in itself, an expression.

sipothac said:
I meant mostly for facial expressions that aren't really necessarily communicating any emotions/state directly, like cute_expression, or like frozen_expression which describes something that happened to a character's expression but isn't, in itself, an expression.

cute_expression should be invalidated just as cute is, since it's a subjective impression for how a character's face appears. frozen_expression doesn't sound very TWYS given a static image. I'm not sure that creates a problem with the _expression suffix either way, though.

The bulk update request #6064 (forum #385324) has been approved by @slyroon.