I originally sent this as a DM to the person who created the tag, but I think it would be useful to brainstorm as a community on this edge case.

I think forced_orgasm and involuntary_orgasm are now backwards.

This is redefining an IRL fetish with a specific name ("forced orgasm") which is explicitly understood to be consensual: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_orgasm (NSFW)

"involuntary orgasm" similarly is usually used to refer to non-con situations IRL: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orgasm#Involuntary_orgasm (NSFW) although wikipedia describes a forced orgasm as an involuntary one.

This is a really messy situation because of the forced_* implication on e6, however, using forced_orgasm for non-con is now backwards from every definition and other website I've been able to find.

My concern is that people (like me) looking for consensual forced orgasm play will now get non-con results for what was previously a well-understood and commonly used tag across multiple websites. I'm not looking forward to getting a bunch of very different, non-con results when I search for forced_orgasm on e6 vs other websites. Can we flip it and use involuntary_orgasm for non-con and forced_orgasm for consensual?

It's a mess but my personal suggestion:

forced_orgasm is a standalone tag for consensual BDSM play
involuntary_orgasm implies forced and is for orgasm against someone's will (for explicitly non-con scenarios)
forced_orgasm does not imply involuntary_orgasm (because of the forced implication above)

Like I said, a mess, but forced_orgasm unfortunately has a very well defined meaning IRL and on other websites among the type of people that would be searching for it (cough cough mentioning for a friend)

What do you think?

Yes, I'm being a little self-serving here. 6 out of the 8 pics who got forced_orgasm removed and replaced with involuntary_orgasm are mine. (Shameless plug about my special brand of consensual and fun BDSM artwork.) Literally nobody outside of e6 is going to search for this fetish using involuntary_orgasm.

For comparison purposes: FA has 8 results for involuntary_orgasm; 2 of them are snuff, 1 is hypno, 1 is drug use, 2 are the same image (sketch vs final) of something that looks consensual, and the last 2 are consensual. Meanwhile, FA has 827 results for forced_orgasm.

The issue I see is that forced/involuntary orgasms don't have to be in a BDSM context. In e6 terms, forced_* tags indicate a character doing something to another character without their consent. Such tags implicate forced, indicating non-consent. So here it would be that a forced orgasm is a character causing another character to orgasm non-consentually. Involuntary orgasm would be an orgasm a character didn't mean to have, which could be caused by another character, or it may be spontaneous (e.g. wet dreams), or accidental (edging too far, not pulling out in time, etc).

watsit said:
The issue I see is that forced/involuntary orgasms don't have to be in a BDSM context. In e6 terms, forced_* tags indicate a character doing something to another character without their consent. Such tags implicate forced, indicating non-consent. So here it would be that a forced orgasm is a character causing another character to orgasm non-consentually. Involuntary orgasm would be an orgasm a character didn't mean to have, which could be caused by another character, or it may be spontaneous (e.g. wet dreams), or accidental (edging too far, not pulling out in time, etc).

Right, and this makes sense in an e6 context, but it breaks outside of e6. People aren't going to search for involuntary_orgasm (or potentially be aware it exists even) when they're searching for forced_orgasm on other sites. It also is problematic because of the IRL definition.

As a more extreme example, it's like defining "red" to be tagged as blue, after "red" has been understood to have a particular meaning for years both on e6 and off it. (I don't think anyone was using forced_orgasm correctly in the past.)

e621 is different from other sites in more ways than this, and we keep a lot of junk around for legacy reasons. Like, there's this random alias from lav to looking_at_viewer which apparently a jillion users still rely on to save typing 14 characters (or it's maybe just Millcore typing very fast lol). It was dealiased 12 days ago, and had to be realiased because people were still using it.

If it was as extreme a difference as "red" and "blue", then I'd agree, but "forced" and "involuntary" are very, very close in meaning. I think it's an acceptable price to pay for having an internally consistent implication scheme; no need to throw more work at poor bitWolfy.

matrixmash said:
e621 is different from other sites in more ways than this, and we keep a lot of junk around for legacy reasons. Like, there's this random alias from lav to looking_at_viewer which apparently a jillion users still rely on to save typing 14 characters (or it's maybe just Millcore typing very fast lol). It was dealiased 12 days ago, and had to be realiased because people were still using it.

If it was as extreme a difference as "red" and "blue", then I'd agree, but "forced" and "involuntary" are very, very close in meaning. I think it's an acceptable price to pay for having an internally consistent implication scheme; no need to throw more work at poor bitWolfy.

Maybe that's the problem then. Why do we need two different tags if the meaning is so close? What was wrong with it the way it was?

sentharn said:
Right, and this makes sense in an e6 context, but it breaks outside of e6. People aren't going to search for involuntary_orgasm (or potentially be aware it exists even) when they're searching for forced_orgasm on other sites. It also is problematic because of the IRL definition.

Another issue is we already have a tag for a character causing another character to have a consensual orgasm: sex (which is assumed consensual by default, unless the forced or questionable_consent tag is also used). At the same time, if I know tags like forced transformation indicates someone being transformed against their consent, forced anal is anal stimulation against their consent, forced wedding is a wedding being performed against their consent, it would be out of place for forced orgasm to be explicitly with their consent.

sentharn said:
As a more extreme example, it's like defining "red" to be tagged as blue, after "red" has been understood to have a particular meaning for years both on e6 and off it. (I don't think anyone was using forced_orgasm correctly in the past.)

Except forced and orgasm have meanings that fit within e6's use. An orgasm that is forced on a character by another is a forced orgasm. It's not redefining an existing word, it's two sub-groups applying different nuance to a term. If anything I could say e6's interpretation is more accurate, because if an orgasm is consensual, is it really forced? To force something implies an amount of resistance, some level of unwillingness to comply. So a "forced orgasm" being consensual is a bit oxymoronic.

watsit said:

Except forced and orgasm have meanings that fit within e6's use. An orgasm that is forced on a character by another is a forced orgasm. It's not redefining an existing word, it's two sub-groups applying different nuance to a term. If anything I could say e6's interpretation is more accurate, because if an orgasm is consensual, is it really forced? To force something implies an amount of resistance, some level of unwillingness to comply. So a "forced orgasm" being consensual is a bit oxymoronic.

I don't want to derail by getting into the weeds about BDSM and consent. "Forced orgasm" is just the phrase that has been used for decades in both the furry community and BDSM community. It's definitely an oxymoron, but that doesn't change that that's what people expect to type when they want to look for this subject.

What if we just go back to having forced_orgasm only? People can differentiate if they really want to by tagging non-consensual BDSM activities with what they are: rape. Now that I think about it, I'm not seeing the need for a second tag.

sentharn said:
What if we just go back to having forced_orgasm only? People can differentiate if they really want to by tagging non-consensual BDSM activities with what they are: rape. Now that I think about it, I'm not seeing the need for a second tag.

As I said, forced orgasms don't have to be in a BDSM context. And being that forced orgasm implies forced (which indicates non-consent), I don't see how that would solve your issue of "redefining an IRL fetish with a specific name ("forced orgasm") which is explicitly understood to be consensual".

involuntary orgasm is trying to fill a separate hole. Since forced orgasm implies a non-consensual act by a second character, it would be useful to have a tag that doesn't imply that (i.e. an unexpected orgasm that is not necessarily non-con and not necessarily caused by a second character). It just so happens the word "involuntary" fits the idea, and doesn't have to be for just orgasms (involuntary_penetration, involuntary_masturbation, etc).

It seems to make sense to me to have involuntary orgasm be the base tag, and have forced orgasm imply it. I am not in tune with the subtle difference in usage, so that remark may just seem to make sense superficially. The forced concept should not apply to both usages as it will remove all of the options that we have to mark it as N/C.

The other bit I wanted to suggest is the possibility of aliasing tags with suffixes that point to the fetish concept to the tag of choice that is to be the fetish tag. This would help lead users to the tag to the concept they are looking for

Example:

alias forced_orgasm_(fetish) -> involuntary_orgasm

thevileone said:
It seems to make sense to me to have involuntary orgasm be the base tag, and have forced orgasm imply it.

According to the wiki, they're supposed to be exclusive of each other. An involuntary orgasm is one that is either consensual or has questionable consent, but never forced/rape. So someone searching involuntary_orgasm won't find clearly non-con acts.

watsit said:
According to the wiki, they're supposed to be exclusive of each other. An involuntary orgasm is one that is either consensual or has questionable consent, but never forced/rape. So someone searching involuntary_orgasm won't find clearly non-con acts.

Right, I can get behind that. I'm still having trouble though with the definitions being backward from what most people are going to expect. I don't understand how that isn't an issue. Involuntary orgasms are almost always described in the context of sexual assault or accidental_orgasm, and every porn site ever uses "forced orgasm" as the tag (whether or not the scene is explicitly consensual).

watsit said:
According to the wiki, they're supposed to be exclusive of each other. An involuntary orgasm is one that is either consensual or has questionable consent, but never forced/rape. So someone searching involuntary_orgasm won't find clearly non-con acts.

I don't recall any other fetish concepts that have managed to have an exception to [exclude] N/C. This type of restriction would be highly unusual, but if folks want to have it structured that way, we can. I just feel it isn't particularly obvious how involuntary orgasm should be used on its face, especially since the Wikipedia article associates the term involuntary orgasm with N/C, the opposing concept to the fetish. It associates the fetish with the concept as well though.

thevileone said:
I don't recall any other fetish concepts that have managed to have an exception to [exclude] N/C. This type of restriction would be highly unusual, but if folks want to have it structured that way, we can. I just feel it isn't particularly obvious how involuntary orgasm should be used on its face, especially since the Wikipedia article associates the term involuntary orgasm with N/C, the opposing concept to the fetish. It associates the fetish with the concept as well though.

If we wanted to break it out into a bunch of tags:
involuntary_orgasm -> orgasm during rape
accidental_orgasm -> wet dream, or not pulling out soon enough, etc.
forced_orgasm -> the BDSM activity, which according to Wikipedia is consensual: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_orgasm

...or just stick with forced_orgasm and have people tag it with rape or dubious_consent if those are appropriate. (Usually it'd be forced but...)

It's unfortunate but that's what it's called!

thevileone said:
I don't recall any other fetish concepts that have managed to have an exception to NC. This type of restriction would be highly unusual, but if folks want to have it structured that way, we can.

I know for myself that I've wanted a variation of forced transformation that is not non-consensual, but is also not something that can be stopped (my go to example being post #2145531). I've never been able to come up with a term that means something along those lines and that a user could figure out. If someone came up with using "involuntary" as the best term for something that isn't necessarily non-con while also having no control over it, such that it can be applied to different things like orgasms, penetration, etc, then I think it's a concept worth keeping. Granted, I do see how the term can be confusing next to forced, but as I said, I haven't been able to come up with anything better.

thevileone said:
The other bit I wanted to suggest is the possibility of aliasing tags with suffixes that point to the fetish concept to the tag of choice that is to be the fetish tag. This would help lead users to the tag to the concept they are looking for

Example:

alias forced_orgasm_(fetish) -> involuntary_orgasm

I like this but I can't find any example of it with a cursory search (I did discover that eyelash_fetish is a thing though, so uh, thanks?)

involuntary_orgasm as a base with forced_orgasm derived from it, break the forced implication from forced_orgasm (lol) and let people tag it separately?

Still a mess. Ugh. :(

sentharn said:
If we wanted to break it out into a bunch of tags:
involuntary_orgasm -> orgasm during rape
accidental_orgasm -> wet dream, or not pulling out soon enough, etc.
forced_orgasm -> the BDSM activity, which according to Wikipedia is consensual: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_orgasm

...or just stick with forced_orgasm and have people tag it with rape or dubious_consent if those are appropriate. (Usually it'd be forced but...)

It's unfortunate but that's what it's called!

Wikipedia deals with reality where rape has consequences. Artwork often deals with fantasy, which these topics don't really focus much upon. Quite a few BDSM concepts are hopelessly associated with N/C themes as well. What you want to achieve with the forced orgasm tag may not be realistic. I agree with watsit about having a concept like involuntary being a term for more consent themed concepts. My suggestion about using aliases to direct users to a tag that will get less traffic (mistags) should be considered IMO.

thevileone said:
Wikipedia deals with reality where rape has consequences. Artwork often deals with fantasy, which these topics don't really focus much upon. Quite a few BDSM concepts are hopelessly associated with N/C themes as well. What you want to achieve with the forced orgasm tag may not be realistic. I agree with watsit about having a concept like involuntary being a term for more consent themed concepts. My suggestion about using aliases to direct users to a tag that will get less traffic (mistags) should be considered IMO.

Fair, I can see that point. I like consent in my art but I realize this is fantasy.

Why don't we just use forced_orgasm like we were in the past then? Just one tag. Now that I think about it I don't think there's enough art that is unambiguously consensual to justify a second tag, at least not under TWYS.

sentharn said:
Why don't we just use forced_orgasm like we were in the past then? Just one tag. Nice and tidy.

We are, no one's changing forced_orgasm. Someone just recently started using a new tag for a different thing is all.

watsit said:
We are, no one's changing forced_orgasm. Someone just recently started using a new tag for a different thing is all.

forced_orgasm was removed from my art and others that depicts forced orgasm as a fetish. I wouldn't mind if it was tagged both forced_orgasm and involuntary_orgasm, but the definition update https://e621.net/wiki_page_versions/102363 is definitely a change to me. The guidance to use only involuntary_orgasm means that we're redefining what the tag means, effectively.

Or put another way, if this is how things will be going forward, how are people who are used to typing forced_orgasm on other sites going to find the right material?

sentharn said:
forced_orgasm was removed from my art and others that depicts forced orgasm as a fetish.

If it's consensual, then that's because it doesn't apply. forced_orgasm is and has always been for non-con/forced orgasms here ("Pictures or animations where a character of either gender is made to orgasm against their will", from over 10 years ago).

watsit said:
If it's consensual, then that's because it doesn't apply. forced_orgasm is and has always been for non-con/forced orgasms here ("Pictures or animations where a character of either gender is made to orgasm against their will", from over 10 years ago).

As an...avid fan...of the fetish, I can tell you that nobody has been paying attention to that for years. The definition for "Forced Orgasm" outside of e6 has remained unchanged for years as a consensual BDSM activity.

Enforcing this now is going to confuse people. I know I've said this several times, but nobody outside of e6 uses involuntary_orgasm. FA has 100x the forced_orgasm tags as involuntary_orgasm (800ish vs 8). This isn't saying that it's right, but I *am* saying, selfishly, that I want people to be able to discovery my art (and the other ~2000 forced orgasm pics, many of which contain situations where the character "might" be willing--how is this TWYS compatible?) without having to be "in the know" for a specific tag that no one else uses.

We're going in circles at this point, so I'm going to step away for awhile and see what other people say.

ive never heard of involuntary_orgasm until now. But my interpretation of "forced_orgasm" is somebody made/forced to orgasm.
Consent/consensual non-con is in general not always clear in art. having a seperate/different tag for a con/non-con variant of the same fetish/kink would be rather confusing in my opinion.

sentharn said:
This isn't saying that it's right, but I *am* saying, selfishly, that I want people to be able to discovery my art (and the other ~2000 forced orgasm pics, many of which contain situations where the character "might" be willing--how is this TWYS compatible?) without having to be "in the know" for a specific tag that no one else uses.

For TWYS the concent is often difficult. Orgasm face easily looks like a frown or a grin, and on appearance alone could be interpreted either way. But:

...based on TWYS, it is really difficult to say on that "probably involuntary" whether he was going for the orgasm proactively, or if it was dragged out of him.

One doesn't have to **be on the know**, but one can get on the know by reading the wiki page on forced orgasm and finding out that here involuntary orgams is the other one.

Also, most people making searches here are on the know.

I just saw this thread. I created the involuntary_orgasm tag specifically because there were a lot of situations where the character had no control, but it wasn't clear whether they were forced to do something against their will. There are plenty of situations where the character has no control over what happens NOW, but they could have agreed to be put into the situation in the first place. I agree with the interpretation that forced_orgasm is a subset of involuntary_orgasm, and I'm sorry if the wiki article I wrote didn't make that clear.

I appreciate that forced orgasm has a different meaning outside e621, but since the tag implies forced, I can only think it has to mean non-consensual. Tags in e6 have special meanings anyways, like the difference between restrained and bound that I've only ever seen here. I want the involuntary_* tags to skip over the question of consent to make it easier to tag things without having to worry about the forced implication.

urielfrys said:
...based on TWYS, it is really difficult to say on that "probably involuntary" whether he was going for the orgasm proactively, or if it was dragged out of him.

Why did we introduce a separate tag for something that is so difficult to determine?

Here's one of my pics that got changed from forced_orgasm -> involuntary_orgasm. Which one is it to you, based on visuals alone?

post #3004292

How about

post #2140719

or

post #2980802

(Actually curious what people see when they see these; I have the backstory in my head so it's interesting to see different interpretations)

In general, people looking for "forced orgasm" art (in the traditional, outside-of-e6 sense) expect to see the full gamut, from this...

post #1454646

...to this...

post #2765007

It's the same fetish. The more I think about it, the more annoyed I get. Why are we 1) splitting up an already well-defined but small pool of fetish pics by 2) something that is so subjective?

dark_phoenix said:
having a seperate/different tag for a con/non-con variant of the same fetish/kink would be rather confusing in my opinion.

This is my biggest issue with the new tag.

schisse said:
I appreciate that forced orgasm has a different meaning outside e621, but since the tag implies forced, I can only think it has to mean non-consensual. Tags in e6 have special meanings anyways, like the difference between restrained and bound that I've only ever seen here. I want the involuntary_* tags to skip over the question of consent to make it easier to tag things without having to worry about the forced implication.

The implication is actually not very old, about 2 years, and I see it as problematic. People have been populating the tag for much longer than that: https://e621.net/forum_topics/25368

I feel the implication itself is incorrect because the definition of forced orgasm itself on (the e6) wiki is incorrect. As a reminder of what people outside of e6 view as the "forced orgasm" fetish:

A forced orgasm is consensual BDSM or kinky sexual play whereby a person consents to be forced to orgasm in a way that is beyond their control. The person being brought to involuntary orgasm would typically be put in physical restraints to deprive them of the ability to control the onset and intensity of orgasm,[1] and to increase the feeling of helplessness,[2] a situation which some people find sexually arousing.[2]

from (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_orgasm) (NSFW)

Would changing the definition of forced_orgasm on the wiki to more closely match the real-world fetish be a solution? We could add a line how it may or may not be consensual. It would then more closely match the current state of the tag.

schisse said:
I want the involuntary_* tags to skip over the question of consent to make it easier to tag things without having to worry about the forced implication.

It's so subjective though. Who makes the final call on whether an image "might be" consensual or not? And it has the messy real-world connotation where involuntary_orgasm is usually a byproduct of sexual assault. I don't like that.

sentharn said:
Why did we introduce a separate tag for something that is so difficult to determine?

Here's one of my pics that got changed from forced_orgasm -> involuntary_orgasm. Which one is it to you, based on visuals alone?

post #3004292

How about

post #2140719

or

post #2980802

(Actually curious what people see when they see these; I have the backstory in my head so it's interesting to see different interpretations)

Yeah, I don't quite get the change of tags. The characters appear fully bound, if not even immobilized, so looks to me they had no say in whether they will orgasm or not. Thus, force has been applied and it's forced orgasm. It doesn't look like something that just happened to them involuntarily, but it was forced.

But then again, I often feel like I'm more sensitive and tag questionable consent and rape more often than in general here.

sentharn said:
The implication is actually not very old, about 2 years, and I see it as problematic.

There was actually two separate posts about it requesting the implication. topic #25368 and the BUR in the second post of topic #26903. In neither instance did anyone speak up about forced_orgasm->forced being a problem. Moreover, I would see the lack of implication as being itself a problem, since it means people who see a pic of someone forced (non-consensually) to orgasm and reasonably tag it as forced_orgasm, and won't think to also tag forced separately since the name already indicates it means forced. Such non-con posts will then end up missing the forced tag, which people who don't like non-con themes will complain about. It also means that people who expect 'forced_orgasm' to mean a consensual orgasm will see a mix of consensual and non-consensual orgasms, which they will complain about. No one will be happy.

Instead, with it like it is, it just means people will have to adjust the terms they use if they use terminology from elsewhere, but both concepts can be kept separated more easily.

sentharn said:
Would changing the definition of forced_orgasm on the wiki to more closely match the real-world fetish be a solution?

No, because then it would become inconsistent with the other forced tags. And not everyone on e6 is into the fetish, so aren't going to know some external groups consider 'forced orgasms' to actually mean non-forced orgasms, causing the forced_orgasm tag to work differently from all other forced tags.

urielfrys said:
Thus, force has been applied and it's forced orgasm. It doesn't look like something that just happened to them involuntarily, but it was forced.

Force would only have been applied if there was a level of resistance. A character willingly being bound and brought to orgasm isn't forced, otherwise all of BDSM would be considered forced and thus non-con/rape.

The issue with BDSM is that it's generally considered to be a consensual activity by default, even though it's designed to give the appearance of non-consensual activity. So even though BDSM activity would often look like rape from a TWYS perspective, it's most often not intended to be and many people would get upset if it was considered so for tagging purposes (it'd be like calling chibis young). It's just one of those things that are regularly on the line, but as long as no one complains, it's left alone. But if someone does bring up a disagreement on a particular image and get the mods involved, the mods will be the ones to make the final judgement call on that image.

Why is it acceptable for BDSM to have an "exception" (in that it is assumed to be consensual, because of real-life activities), but not acceptable for forced_orgasm to have an exception (in that it is assumed to be consensual, because of real-life activities)?

Yes, I know, it has "forced" in the title. That is unfortunately what it is called. Why can we not put a description of this exception in the wiki, like the bdsm entry has a note about how it is difficult to tell if something is consensual?

There are 2k forced_orgasm pics. Are they all going to be examined and potentially re-tagged? Who makes the call on what is and isn't consensual? What if someone disagrees?

sentharn said:
Why is it acceptable for BDSM to have an "exception" (in that it is assumed to be consensual, because of real-life activities), but not acceptable for forced_orgasm to have an exception (in that it is assumed to be consensual, because of real-life activities)?

Because forced_orgasm is a single specific tag, out of all the other forced_* tags, that only a few people have an issue with being considered forced/non-con. BDSM is an entire concept blanketing several activities/tags that most people recognize as being consensual. And BDSM does have signifying gear that helps separate it from normal non-con activities.

sentharn said:
Yes, I know, it has "forced" in the title. That is unfortunately what it is called. Why can we not put a description of this exception in the wiki, like the bdsm entry has a note about how it is difficult to tell if something is consensual?

Because not everyone reads the wikis, or will remember that this one forced_ tag is an exception to all the others about meaning forced. In addition to the fact that the idea of a consensual-but-not-preventable act can be extended to other things aside from orgasms, which would cause more inconsistencies if forced_orgasm is changed to fit that meaning.

sentharn said:
Who makes the call on what is and isn't consensual? What if someone disagrees?

That's what the moderators are here to handle. People tag their uploads according to what tags appear to apply according to e6's definitions, other people add or remove tags if they see some missing or erroneously used, and if people disagree on whether a tag applies or not, report the post to get a moderator to look at it (although in no circumstances should you keep changing the tag if someone else keeps changing it back; tag wars will get you in trouble, let the moderators deal with it).

Well, this is getting out of hand.
Here's what I propose.

1. Forced does not have to stand for non-consensual activities. It can simply mean not being in control of the situation.
This is better for TWYS, since consent is often difficult to determine from the image alone. This will also sidestep the negative connotations associated with tags that imply it.
The wiki will have to be edited to reflect this.

2. Alias involuntary_orgasm to forced_orgasm. The two terms are incredibly close in meaning, and the names are not obvious for the casual lurker or tagger.

3. Posts that feature forced_orgasm that are explicitly non-consensual in nature should be tagged with rape, as per that tag's definition.
Explicitly_stated_consent and explicitly_stated_nonconsent may also apply.

The bulk update request #1711 is pending approval.

create alias involuntary_orgasm (66) -> forced_orgasm (3415)

watsit said:
According to the wiki, they're supposed to be exclusive of each other. An involuntary orgasm is one that is either consensual or has questionable consent, but never forced/rape. So someone searching involuntary_orgasm won't find clearly non-con acts.

Both the wiki, and the tag edits, were done by just one person, with no input from the rest of the community.
This is one of the main reasons why you shouldn't treat the wiki pages as gospel.

@schisse You should not be forcing the definitions of well-populated tags to change without at least writing a proposal on the forums.

bitwolfy said:
1. Forced does not have to stand for non-consensual activities. It can simply mean not being in control of the situation.
This is better for TWYS, since consent is often difficult to determine from the image alone.

Difficult maybe, but not impossible. It would be useful to separate things like post #2920669 from post #2145531, or post #3062567 from post #3051061. This is what forced helps with and has always been used for, as far as I know, to separate clearly non-consensual acts from not-clearly-non-consensual.

bitwolfy said:
3. Posts that feature forced_orgasm that are explicitly non-consensual in nature should be tagged with rape, as per that tag's definition.
Explicitly_stated_consent and explicitly_stated_nonconsent may also apply.

Rape won't help for non-sex acts. And I don't think consent (or lack thereof) needs to be explicitly stated to be inferred.

watsit said:
It would be useful to separate things like post #2920669 from post #2145531, or post #3062567 from post #3051061.

Your examples don't really work.
I'll give you post #3062567 – that is clearly non-consensual, based on the facial expressions.

But in post #2145531, (vague) consent is only derived from dialogue.
And I have no idea how you can tell whether post #3051061 or post #2920669 are consensual or not. Especially the latter.

watsit said:
Rape won't help for non-sex acts. And I don't think consent (or lack thereof) needs to be explicitly stated to be inferred.

I was talking about forced_orgasm there specifically.

bitwolfy said:
But in post #2145531, (vague) consent is only derived from dialogue.

But there's no clear indication of non-consent, so at worst it's questionable consent.

bitwolfy said:
And I have no idea how you can tell whether post #3051061 or post #2920669 are consensual or not. Especially the latter.

With the former, that's the point. You can't tell that post #3051061 is or isn't consensual, compared to post #3062567 where it's clearly non-consensual. Separating these two would be nice.

With post #2920669, a character being apparently trapped in a containment room with a bruised body while appearing to be under agony as other people stoically look on kind of tips the scales toward non-consent for me.

bitwolfy said:
I was talking about forced_orgasm there specifically.

Right but the issue is that the whole forced/involuntary distinction encompasses more than just orgasms (or sex acts), so it would be preferable to have it consistent across various acts. And since forced has always meant non-consent for the 9 years the wiki page has existed (and forced_orgasm also meaning non-consent for the 10+ years its wiki page has existed), changing it now to include consensual acts seems a bit much, especially without a suitable replacement.

watsit said:
Right but the issue is that the whole forced/involuntary distinction encompasses more than just orgasms (or sex acts), so it would be preferable to have it consistent across various acts. And since forced has always meant non-consent for the 9 years the wiki page has existed (and forced_orgasm also meaning non-consent for the 10+ years its wiki page has existed), changing it now to include consensual acts seems a bit much, especially without a suitable replacement.

The problem with the forced_orgasm tag is that people have been using it improperly this whole time to have a mix of consensual and non-consensual situations, probably because of the well-understood, off-site definition. It's not being changed to include consensual acts. If anything, this was a well-intentioned attempt to clean up the tag.

But I don't think there's enough obviously consensual vs clearly not consensual forced orgasm art to justify another tag. Orgasm faces can look pained. It's very subjective and depends on things outside of the immediate picture.

some examples of likely consensual art from ages past, going only by cues (facial expressions, etc) in the art itself:

post #1188155
post #385067
post #103767
post #1198205 (maybe slightly dubious)
post #1205088 (very obviously consensual, IMHO, from expressions)

I did skip past a lot of pics where it was impossible to tell either way, and more than a few obviously non-consensual ones. It's a mix, and always has been. (Edit: and no, these weren't all the ones I could find, just my favorites)

Hell, the very first post #941 is impossible to tell. Is the dragon chained up against his will? There's a mark that says "donation" in the lower-right corner. Is that an ad from the artist? Is that the title of the pic, and the dragon is donating his seed?

I agree with the proposal to just alias the two tags and tag with rape if that's clearly what it is.

sentharn said:
The problem with the forced_orgasm tag is that people have been using it improperly this whole time to have a mix of consensual and non-consensual situations, probably because of the well-understood, off-site definition. It's not being changed to include consensual acts. If anything, this was a well-intentioned attempt to clean up the tag.

It is being changed. Some people using the tag incorrectly against the long-standing definition in the wiki and the long-standing definition of 'forced' that the tag name is built on isn't grounds to throw out how it's understood to be for an external alternate definition. Nor is it grounds to change just because some uses have flown under the radar for several years.

sentharn said:
But I don't think there's enough obviously consensual vs clearly not consensual forced orgasm art to justify another tag. Orgasm faces can look pained. It's very subjective and depends on things outside of the immediate picture.

I don't deny that consent can be difficult to discern in images. That's why the tags work the way they do. Consent is presumed with actions, so if someone has an orgasm without any reason to think it isn't consensual, it's simply tagged orgasm. If there is clear indication it's non-consensual, it's tagged forced to denote a non-consensual act (and by implication, a forced orgasm is forced_orgasm, which helps clarify it's the orgasm specifically that's forced, in contrast to, for example, if a rapist has an orgasm while raping someone, the post would have forced and orgasm but it wouldn't be the orgasm that was forced). If there's a reason to question something being consensual but you can't say it's clearly non-consensual, you have questionable_consent.

sentharn said:
some examples of likely consensual art from ages past, going only by cues (facial expressions, etc) in the art itself:

post #1188155
post #385067
post #103767
post #1198205 (maybe slightly dubious)
post #1205088 (very obviously consensual, IMHO, from expressions)

That last one I agree is consensual given the expressions, and is thus not an orgasm that was forced. All the others though I would say are at least subious, so I wouldn't really question hard if someone thought forced was appropriate given some other details I might've missed.

sentharn said:
Hell, the very first post #941 is impossible to tell. Is the dragon chained up against his will? There's a mark that says "donation" in the lower-right corner. Is that an ad from the artist? Is that the title of the pic, and the dragon is donating his seed?

Given the heavy duty chains, glowing eyes, and an angry expression, I would put that under forced, yes. There's no reason to think the word "donation" is trying to indicate the dragon is willingly donating his cum, that's a rather silly argument.

bitwolfy said:
@schisse You should not be forcing the definitions of well-populated tags to change without at least writing a proposal on the forums.

I apologize for not talking about it on the forums. I honestly wasn't aware of the forums until just a week or two ago. But that's also why I chose the path I did, creating a new tag—I was hoping to leave the "is it forced?" debate up to other taggers. I actually haven't removed forced orgasm from much, I've mostly just been adding involuntary orgasm.

I'll even volunteer to change it back, if that's the consensus. Please don't alias involuntary_orgasm to forced_orgasm, because the original set of pics tagged that way (before there was a wiki article for it) did have a more specific meaning for involuntary orgasm: orgasms that were happening completely unbidden, such as post #1286260.

sentharn said:
The problem with the forced_orgasm tag is that people have been using it improperly this whole time to have a mix of consensual and non-consensual situations, probably because of the well-understood, off-site definition. It's not being changed to include consensual acts. If anything, this was a well-intentioned attempt to clean up the tag.

But I don't think there's enough obviously consensual vs clearly not consensual forced orgasm art to justify another tag. Orgasm faces can look pained. It's very subjective and depends on things outside of the immediate picture.

That's not the point of the involuntary_orgasm tag. Watsit has the idea right—the idea isn't to remove the forced_orgasm tag, but to add the involuntary_orgasm tag to cover both forced_orgasm (forced) and questionable_consent situations, where forced_orgasm has been doing both up until now. I didn't want to tag new things I've found with forced_orgasm specifically because I didn't want the forced tag to appear, and at any rate, I didn't want to be in charge of determining consent. Let other people determine consent, I just wanted something I could safely tag.

If it's easiest for me to go back and remove involuntary orgasm and tag questionable consent, please let me do that. It won't take me long. Don't alias the other, I beg you! There was a legit other use for involuntary_orgasm.

(Also, don't forget this debate applies to all the other forced_* tags. Actually, the questionable consent path would be easier because that's a lot of forced oral I don't have to revisit.)

If we're going to have this much difficulty agreeing on meaning, maybe we ought to just alias forced_orgasm away and replace it with something like non-con_orgasm which would imply involuntary_orgasm.

schisse said:

I'll even volunteer to change it back, if that's the consensus. Please don't alias involuntary_orgasm to forced_orgasm, because the original set of pics tagged that way (before there was a wiki article for it) did have a more specific meaning for involuntary orgasm: orgasms that were happening completely unbidden, such as post #1286260.

I agree with this point, but would like the tag changed to one that isn't so easily confusable with forced_orgasm. Involuntary_orgasm could be changed into accidental_orgasm, for example. It's like peeing and wetting tags in watersports... There appears to be no forced_peeing, though.

urielfrys said:
I agree with this point, but would like the tag changed to one that isn't so easily confusable with forced_orgasm. Involuntary_orgasm could be changed into accidental_orgasm, for example. It's like peeing and wetting tags in watersports... There appears to be no forced_peeing, though.

Eh, I don't like that idea. The example I gave wasn't accidental, it was actually some kind of continuous orgasm the character couldn't stop. Let the wiki explain any differences, it's easy enough to get to.

clawstripe said:
If we're going to have this much difficulty agreeing on meaning, maybe we ought to just alias forced_orgasm away and replace it with something like non-con_orgasm which would imply involuntary_orgasm.

Rather than go that far, I'd say meet sentharn half-way: (1) remove the forced_orgasm -> forced implication, (2) alias forced to non-con, (3) I'll manually change the involuntary_orgasm tags back to the original set and add forced orgasm/questionable consent as appropriate.

schisse said:
Rather than go that far, I'd say meet sentharn half-way: (1) remove the forced_orgasm -> forced implication, (2) alias forced to non-con, (3) I'll manually change the involuntary_orgasm tags back to the original set and add forced orgasm/questionable consent as appropriate.

I may be misreading the message, but making forced_orgasm automatically imply questionable_consent automatically (if that's what you're suggesting) feels even worse than just using involuntary_orgasm. This seems wrong to me especially given the discussion above where bdsm and bondage activities are often understood to be consensual.

I have no issue with manually tagging forced_orgasm pics with questionable_consent as appropriate, and in fact that seems a better solution than automatically applying some sort of judgement based on tags alone and not by pic context.

It would be nice if we could remove the forced implication but I understand that's messy...

clawstripe said:
If we're going to have this much difficulty agreeing on meaning, maybe we ought to just alias forced_orgasm away and replace it with something like non-con_orgasm which would imply involuntary_orgasm.

Do you mean making a tag for explicitly non-consensual orgasms? Or nuking the forced_orgasm tag entirely?

If you're talking about forced orgasms as a whole, you have a discoverability problem: "forced orgasm" is the term used outside of e6. I'm sorry for harping on this so much. I don't know how to describe this properly. It's not a niche fetish. It's the term used by BDSM fans and practitioners around the world.

Yes, it's contentious, but e6 is no stranger to contentious tags. We have watersports and gore and handholding after all.

I don't want to blanket assign non-con to the tag because then we're right back to where we started.

There's not enough information in most forced_orgasm pics to determine whether or not it's non-con automatically. Let people tag it how they see it--using a separate tag (rape, questionable_consent, etc) seems so much cleaner instead of trying to pigeonhole every different type of orgasm where the character is not in direct control.

Sorry for all the edits lol.

bitwolfy said:
1. Forced does not have to stand for non-consensual activities. It can simply mean not being in control of the situation.
This is better for TWYS, since consent is often difficult to determine from the image alone. This will also sidestep the negative connotations associated with tags that imply it.
The wiki will have to be edited to reflect this.

That's what I was thinking.
Forced suggests lack of control, which doesn't always automatically equal lack of consent. Consent in general is very hard to gauge, especially for forced_oral and rough_sex. questionable_consent should be fine in forced. ^{Edit: Clarified what I meant.}

And maybe consider creating unwanted_orgasm at some point, as that name is clearer and we already have unwanted_cumshot.

genjar said:
questionable_consent should be fine under forced.

Problem then is cases where something is forced but you can also tell it's consensual or non-consensual, causing questionable_consent to be tagged on posts where it's not questionable (if I'm understanding you that it's a good implication).

I like the idea of redefining the forced tag to mean lack of control rather than lack of consent. That's the easiest way out of this, I'll get started on undoing the involuntary_* tags when I can.

I haven't seen anything come of the involuntary_orgasm -> forced_orgasm alias request, but if anyone here has the power to stop that, please do so I can set things straight and restore the original involuntary_orgasm tags.

One thing though, I won't change the "forced" wiki without hearing back. I need to hear some consensus on this. I also like the idea of using unwanted_orgasm to mark clearly non-con moments.

schisse said:
One thing though, I won't change the "forced" wiki without hearing back. I need to hear some consensus on this.

I would wait until some other tag is established for non-consensual acts. Currently nonconsensual, non-consensual, unwilling, non-con, noncon, and various others are aliased to forced, so it'd require a multi-step alias juggling to get another non-consensual tag set up. Though that then leaves the question of how to handle people who are using forced for non-consensual acts (for tagging, searching, or blacklisting); changing it will cause them to unknowingly use the tag incorrectly without warning, or be finding/blacklisting what they didn't intend to.

i think non-con would be better as its own tag instead of being an alias to forced
the meaning of Non-Con seams rather clear.
Also IMHO a lack of control can be seen better then a lack of consent in a picture.
Of course that would ruin the system in place right now where forced_* automaticly means questionable consent but thats the price we would have to pay.

How does one go about removing that alias, though? Post a topic in the forum and hope an admin sees it?

genjar said:
And maybe consider creating unwanted_orgasm at some point, as that name is clearer and we already have unwanted_cumshot.

I hate that tag. The wiki gives two completely opposite definitions. unwanted_erection is far better defined, we should be using that as a precedent instead.

wat8548 said:
I hate that tag. The wiki gives two completely opposite definitions. unwanted_erection is far better defined, we should be using that as a precedent instead.

I think I agree? My trouble with unwanted_cumshot is it doesn't distinguish between the giver and the receiver. What definition do you propose?

schisse said:
I think I agree? My trouble with unwanted_cumshot is it doesn't distinguish between the giver and the receiver. What definition do you propose?

As I said, unwanted_erection is for an erection that the owner of the penis doesn't want, so unwanted_cumshot should be analagous to that. The other definition would be better suited to a forced_* tag of some sort.

Technically, isn't a nocturnal emission involuntary? At least, in medical terms? XD