I constantly see works that are rated "questionable" become locked as "explicit" where there is nothing remotely explicit about them.

First things first: something should only be rated as heavy adult content (explicit) if there is sex, genitalia as well as devices that represent it, or mature themed bodily fluids. Or else it just comes out as questionable content where the mature theme is there but its also tame since the adult action is not fully visible. (key theme: suggesting, not doing)
The problem is that ball gags count as a "sex toy" which is obscure for this particular reason because anything can be considered a sex toy. A cloth gag reinforced with tape functions as the exact same thing as a ball gag. In other words its just a gag and its shape/material (unless its shape represents genitalia) should not determine whether tame fetish content becomes full porn tier or not. Its like saying blindfolds are not sex toys but when they are made out of leather, they need to be explicit rated

take for example this image here:
{post #3391279}

Nothing really pornographic here. Just a loosely clothed lady holding a ball gag

or this one: {post #3374462}

would this have been rated safe if the character here had tape or a muzzle?

This is quite an annoying thing for me because it defeats the purpose of searching for items that are fetish content but aren't on the same boat as full porn

Or even this one?
post #1575188
That one was originally rated Safe, but was only recently re-rated Questionable a couple months ago and then Explicit less than a month ago.

It seems a Donovan DMC was behind these re-ratings of ball gags (at least of the three examples shown in this thread). His(?) profile invites users to Dmail him if they feel he got something wrongly rating locked, so you may want to give him a poke and ask him about his logic.

kemonophonic said:
ball_gag

If you're talking about the note at the top, it was added by the same Donovan DMC that Clawstripe mentioned above, this past May.

The e621:ratings lists sex toys as explicit, regardless of usage. The question becomes whether or not ball_gags are sex toys or not; if they are then they're always explicit, and if they aren't then it remains context sensitive. Currently, ball gag doesn't imply sex_toy.

siral_exan said:
The e621:ratings lists sex toys as explicit, regardless of usage. The question becomes whether or not ball_gags are sex toys or not; if they are then they're always explicit, and if they aren't then it remains context sensitive. Currently, ball gag doesn't imply sex_toy.

I'm with barefootslavedragon on this one, a ball gag alone doesn't strike me as a sex toy.

strikerman said:
I'm with barefootslavedragon on this one, a ball gag alone doesn't strike me as a sex toy.

Likewise. To me, a ball gag is a restraint like cuffs or a blindfold. They have kinky uses, but they also have non-kink uses as well.

I'd count a ring gag as a sex toy, but a ball gag as a restraint.

Name one situation where a ball gag is seen used in a non sexual manner.

versperus said:
Name one situation where a ball gag is seen used in a non sexual explicit manner.

I think you're missing one part of the point ^^.

Can images showing a ball gag be rated safe? Dunno, but I think it's quite possible.
Are all those images explicit? I wholeheartedly agree that not all ball gag uses are inherently explicit.

barefootslavedragon said:
post #3374462
would this have been rated safe if the character here had tape or a muzzle?

I wouldn't rate that one or your alternatives (tape/muzzle) safe because of

- all content with slight (but obvious) fetishistic material
-- light teasing bondage (done with household items and similar) ... with otherwise no explicit content are acceptable under Questionable

-> see ratings

versperus said:
Name one situation where a ball gag is seen used in a non sexual manner.

https://e621.net/posts/1130137?q=Ball_gag+humor+feral

A ball gag isn't a sex toy, it's a bdsm toy

Which are still explicit

donovan_dmc said:
A ball gag isn't a sex toy, it's a bdsm toy

Which are still explicit

Is there any staff statement on the matter? I don't think it's right for a user to unilaterally edit a wiki to say something is always Explicit, then go around changing posts to and locking Explicit on ones that have the tag, when people don't completely agree. At least a forum post of an admin saying "ball gags are exclusively a BDSM toy/always Explicit" that the wiki can link to would be beneficial, but a user saying it doesn't automatically make it true.

watsit said:
Is there any staff statement on the matter? I don't think it's right for a user to unilaterally edit a wiki to say something is always Explicit, then go around changing posts to and locking Explicit on ones that have the tag, when people don't completely agree. At least a forum post of an admin saying "ball gags are exclusively a BDSM toy/always Explicit" that the wiki can link to would be beneficial, but a user saying it doesn't automatically make it true.

I discussed it in the Discord, several people agreed that ball gags are bdsm toys, which are listed under explicit
I tried messaging a few admins about it and didn't get a response from any of them

From Help: Ratings,

any content with obvious "extreme" fetish purposes (e.g. heavy BDSM and BDSM toys, hard/fatal vore, scat, watersports, etc...)

Nowhere can I find "bdsm toys" listed explicitly, but I'd think a ball gag clearly falls under that

donovan_dmc said:
I discussed it in the Discord, several people agreed that ball gags are bdsm toys, which are listed under explicit
I tried messaging a few admins about it and didn't get a response from any of them

From Help: Ratings,

The link you sent suggests light bondage is just questionable? Are the examples posted not light bondage instead of heavy bdsm?

donovan_dmc said:

Nowhere can I find "bdsm toys" listed explicitly, but I'd think a ball gag clearly falls under that

A collar and a leash can be part of bdsm play, but I'd rather not label every post with them as explicit.

versperus said:
Name one situation where a ball gag is seen used in a non sexual manner.

"The use of gags is commonly depicted in soap operas and crime fiction, particularly in comics and novels. It is also often used in movies, such as Raiders of the Lost Ark and its sequel Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull."
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, as I am lazy to point to several examples.
Though, if you mean the specific image of a ball gag that you'd typically find in an adult store... well, there's no telling of anything to the contrary. Basically, point of view on what constitutes a ball gag, as Strikerman seems to think above, I feel anyway

Speaking of, by chance, this got me thinking... don't several children's/young adult shows tend to commonly have a form of "light-hearted"(??) "torture" be a makeshift apple-duct-taped-to-mouth kind of thing, or am I the only one and probably lost track of time and inhaled too much coolant or something? We may have been gotten young--

funeralopolite said:
"The use of gags is commonly depicted in soap operas and crime fiction, particularly in comics and novels. It is also often used in movies, such as Raiders of the Lost Ark and its sequel Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull."
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, as I am lazy to point to several examples.
Though, if you mean the specific image of a ball gag that you'd typically find in an adult store... well, there's no telling of anything to the contrary. Basically, point of view on what constitutes a ball gag, as Strikerman seems to think above, I feel anyway

Speaking of, by chance, this got me thinking... don't several children's/young adult shows tend to commonly have a form of "light-hearted"(??) "torture" be a makeshift apple-duct-taped-to-mouth kind of thing, or am I the only one and probably lost track of time and inhaled too much coolant or something? We may have been gotten young--

maybe, but similar to how we mark stuff with any anus or sheath or any genital that might be generally considered "safe for work" as explicit regardless of context or "intent", it'd probably be reasonable to of extend that to BDSM stuff as well.

darryus said:
maybe, but similar to how we mark stuff with any anus or sheath or any genital that might be generally considered "safe for work" as explicit regardless of context or "intent", it'd probably be reasonable to of extend that to BDSM stuff as well.

'Aight, I can drink to that.
After all, it seems that I was more concerned with an issue of "if ball gags are tagged properly, depending on the type (makeshift or made to... Y'know... gag)" which should hopefully be managed by users by themselves.

Why else would you have a ball gag just lying around? (now I wonder about all of the possible redneck fixes...)

funeralopolite said:
"The use of gags is commonly depicted in soap operas and crime fiction, particularly in comics and novels. It is also often used in movies, such as Raiders of the Lost Ark and its sequel Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull."
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, as I am lazy to point to several examples.
Though, if you mean the specific image of a ball gag that you'd typically find in an adult store... well, there's no telling of anything to the contrary. Basically, point of view on what constitutes a ball gag, as Strikerman seems to think above, I feel anyway

Speaking of, by chance, this got me thinking... don't several children's/young adult shows tend to commonly have a form of "light-hearted"(??) "torture" be a makeshift apple-duct-taped-to-mouth kind of thing, or am I the only one and probably lost track of time and inhaled too much coolant or something? We may have been gotten young--

That's just talking about mouth obstruction in general not ball gags.

Bruh, there are horror films where ballgags are used to restrain victims in eerie ways except the gag is not red and is a different color like grey. I'm gonna go back to my previous example where blindfolds are not bdsm toys but all of a sudden when it is made out of leather it is somehow a bdsm toy and that means it has to be rated explicit when it should not be in the same class as straight up messy porn. This misuse of tagging truly shows how the questionable rating will become obsolete at this rate. E6 is already a not so safe website so even rated safe content should be taken with a grain of salt honestly

donovan_dmc said:

I really think you should revert all those rated e tags considering countless tame works have fallen under the same category as the adult ones

funeralopolite said:
"The use of gags is commonly depicted in soap operas and crime fiction, particularly in comics and novels. It is also often used in movies, such as Raiders of the Lost Ark and its sequel Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull."
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, as I am lazy to point to several examples.
Though, if you mean the specific image of a ball gag that you'd typically find in an adult store... well, there's no telling of anything to the contrary. Basically, point of view on what constitutes a ball gag, as Strikerman seems to think above, I feel anyway

Speaking of, by chance, this got me thinking... don't several children's/young adult shows tend to commonly have a form of "light-hearted"(??) "torture" be a makeshift apple-duct-taped-to-mouth kind of thing, or am I the only one and probably lost track of time and inhaled too much coolant or something? We may have been gotten young--

This ^

post #3309506
Even when the ball is red, it can be in a completely non-lewd fashion. Ball gags are simply a convenient way to forcibly gag a person, where bit-gags rely on the wearer willingly clenching their mouth shut.

The ball gag episode of Solitary had a TV-14 rating for Coarse or Crude Language
I could see them being something that would land a questionable rating but I'm not sure they're intrinsically sexual.

magnuseffect said:
The ball gag episode of Solitary had a TV-14 rating for Coarse or Crude Language
I could see them being something that would land a questionable rating but I'm not sure they're intrinsically sexual.

I could settle for Questionable.

I think it depends on the situation, the type of gag, and the way it is used. I would tag them at least questionable.

magnuseffect said:
The ball gag episode of Solitary had a TV-14 rating for Coarse or Crude Language

How about the Simpsons' episode that parodied Pulp Fiction? I think if The Simpsons can get away with showing one on TV, it's not a sex toy.

Arguing what can be shown on TV should dictate the ratings here is a bad way of arguing ratings

A fully erect animal can be shown on TV with no problems, does that mean it should be safe? No

Animal sex can be shown on TV, does that mean it should be questionable? No

dubsthefox said:
I think it depends on the situation, the type of gag, and the way it is used. I would tag them at least questionable.

Them being at least questionable should be a given, I can see being explicit as being up in the air but I cannot see them being safe

i'll pop in with my 2-cents: regular gags like duct tape and tied cloth are pretty real ways to keep someone quiet and mostly associated to crime drama, those big rubber ball-gags that are a relatively recent invention and very closely connected to the bdsm scene and kink as a whole

that's not to say i think ball gags should be locked to explicit; there are plenty of things out there that have links to kink and sex like lingerie, bedroom_eyes or this genre of pose:
post #2175077 post #1926968 post #2236820 post #2388642
that aren't default tagged to explicit or questionable (unless there's something else more explicit going on in the image) and quite frankly, i don't think need to. so why should ball gags?

jockjamdoorslam said:
How about the Simpsons' episode that parodied Pulp Fiction? I think if The Simpsons can get away with showing one on TV, it's not a sex toy.

i'll admit, that one's pretty bad example since in PF, with the gimp and what they did with marcell down there, it was pretty explicitly a sex thing

donovan_dmc said:
Them being at least questionable should be a given, I can see being explicit as being up in the air but I cannot see them being safe

Can we at least agree that ball gags shouldn't automatically be explicit?

BDSM gear is fine at questionable, including the ball gag varieties, assuming nothing else is going on. Once things go into gimp suit ranges or vacuum beds it might tip towards explicit depending on what exactly is present, and of course how it's presented. Someone posing wearing a ball gag should probably not be explicit unless something else is going on in addition to that, but should almost certainly be questionable.

Gags made from everyday items or tape would depend on the context on whether it's a sexual situation or not. Your average cartoon damsel in distress on a set of rail tracks will most likely for safe without a second thought, a character mummified in tape with a ball gag visible through the tape will less likely to be safe.

In light of the arguments presented here, I would say that ball gags probably should be rated Questionable after all. Even when used in a safe, totally non-sexual manner, they do still have an association with BDSM and its sexual connotations in the minds of people. Much of the humor in safe ball gag situations is the odd-seeming juxtaposition of safe situation with explicit concept. Questionable would thus be splitting the difference.

notmenotyou said:
BDSM gear is fine at questionable, including the ball gag varieties, assuming nothing else is going on.

Sounds good. Then back when I posted the example I linked to above, I'd originally rated it incorrectly at Safe. My only real excuse is that, at the time, to me such things were unfamiliar ground. (They still are to a large degree, but that's why you people out there are able to fix my mistakes.) I never had complaints about Donovan DMC re-rating it, but I do think that Explicit was a bit high.

I can admit when I'm wrong, and I was wrong here
I took an assumption and ran with it
Hours of fixing my own mess here I come 🙃