Aliasing adult → invalid_tag
Link to alias

Reason:

where we even need adult tag???

Mutisija said:
Aliasing adult → invalid_tag
Link to alias

Reason:

where we even need adult tag???

To giggle when we see new people tag posts with it.

But seriously, I'm +1 unless there's an actual use that I'm not aware of that justifies keeping it (even if things get mistagged).

why do we even need a tail tag

almost every image has one

it would be better to tag tailless images with no_tail

null0010 said:
why do we even need a tail tag

almost every image has one

it would be better to tag tailless images with no_tail

That one always reminded me of when you run into people tagging things like "teeth" (when it's a guy pencil sketched in the background who happens to smiling), colored_hair, or one I saw recently, nostril.

null0010 said:
why do we even need a tail tag

almost every image has one

it would be better to tag tailless images with no_tail

Huh, I could have sworn that we decided to nix the tail tag a while ago. I've never used it, don't see why anyone else would.

+1

The adult tag is practically invalid and serves no purpose(mostly because most furry porn is drawn with adults), it's opposite, young, is for characters in the posts that are... well.. very young in age .

while we're at it let's get rid of the fur tag

most images are of furred characters

we can just tag scalies instead

null0010 said:
while we're at it let's get rid of the fur tag

most images are of furred characters

we can just tag scalies instead

Fur is an umbrella tag for all *_fur tags. When (if?) searches like -*_fur would be correctly implemented then it would make sense to remove them. Till then they are not similar case to adult tag.

However there's one funny thing. While we're keeping fur as an umbrella tag we removed skin tag. I really have no idea why this was accepted especially since all other tags corgi bread mentioned there are still alive.

null0010 said:
while we're at it let's get rid of the fur tag

most images are of furred characters

we can just tag scalies instead

That's actually pretty useful for adding to scalies that have some fur on them (mostly feral dragons), like along the spine and tail. Or hell, completely furred dragons (who also have a species tag, but still).

Of course it's useless on species that are already expected to have fur, so that's clearly not where it should be added, but as a nuancing tag it functions just fine.

I'll start it with how adult seems to be used:

• Adult as in someone who is fully grown and developed
• Adult to mean pornographic

For the second: This is easy as it's obviously duplicating function. Most people who tag this are used to other sites where they don't have a dedicated button. This kind of goes with the tag "suggestive" in that we sometimes need to clean up tags used normally on other sites. Unlike suggestive however (IMO) adult doesn't really serve a useful or even consistent purpose right now.

For the first: I'm not sure what "adult" would accomplish. Someone would need to go back and tag hundreds of thousands of images as "adult" in order to make this feasible. Even then I think this would be harder than gender to keep up with, because unlike gender 99% of the users won't see the point. tldr: It's virtually uninforceable and has very little benefit to anyone.

Makes sense to invalidate the adult tag. Not in the least because I mostly see it used to say something has "adult content a.k.a. sex" and on this site, that is what the rating system is for.

@null0010: the tail tag was already invalidated ages ago.

And I agree with Granberia, not sure why the skin tag was invalidated. Like fur, it was an important umbrella tag and useful for searches since you can't minus wildcards and you have a limited number of search term slots (which makes listing everything manually an impossibility).

Skin would be easy to restore.
We'd just have to implicate the various <color>_skin tags to it. It was rarely tagged by itself, so not much was lost when it was invalidated.

Anyway, plus one for invalidating adult. It's a mess not worth cleaning up: tagged for mature characters, pornography, and R18 content. And it's one of those tags that'd have to be added for 90% of the content. Not worth the trouble, searching for '-old -young' is easy enough.

The_Great_Wolfgang said:
+1

The adult tag is practically invalid and serves no purpose(mostly because most furry porn is drawn with adults), it's opposite, young, is for characters in the posts that are... well.. very young in age .

What if a person doesn't just want to find an image of a youthful character, but an image that has that youthful character with an adult showing them around? Suddenly, "Young adult" no longer counts as valid, but "Young" doesn't help them find the images so easily.

furrypickle said:
@null0010: the tail tag was already invalidated ages ago.

i know, i did it

Furrin_Gok said:
What if a person doesn't just want to find an image of a youthful character, but an image that has that youthful character with an adult showing them around? Suddenly, "Young adult" no longer counts as valid, but "Young" doesn't help them find the images so easily.

This is a rare/complicated situation. If they want to find posts with 1 young & 1 adult, they will have to skim through the pages.

Besides, the adult tag is not commonly used, having it removed would be easier than having to tag every single post in e621 that has adults.

I remember tagging tail. Those were the days.

Furrin_Gok said:
What if a person doesn't just want to find an image of a youthful character, but an image that has that youthful character with an adult showing them around?

They can search for something like 'young ~parent ~teacher ~old ~age_difference -rating:explicit'.

It's better to have a small set of tags that get tagged well, than a bloaty one that's undertagged.

null0010 said:
i know, i did it

Not sure what your point was then, or how it helps discuss the adult tag. Why suggest we alias away an unrelated tag, especially one you already knew was long gone?

Furrin_Gok said:
What if a person doesn't just want to find an image of a youthful character, but an image that has that youthful character with an adult showing them around? Suddenly, "Young adult" no longer counts as valid, but "Young" doesn't help them find the images so easily.

Searching young + age_difference should narrow it down similarly to what searching young + adult would have done, if the youthfulness of the one character vs the other was that noticeable. It might even work better since adult wasn't tagged all that often.

How about using the adult tag for characters who are usually young (like miles_prower) who have been drawn as adults by the artist?

DragonFox69 said:
How about using the adult tag for characters who are usually young (like miles_prower) who have been drawn as adults by the artist?

People seems to be using older tag for this purpose.

furrypickle said:
Not sure what your point was then, or how it helps discuss the adult tag. Why suggest we alias away an unrelated tag, especially one you already knew was long gone?

all of the aliases i suggested in this topic, along with the alias this topic is about, are stupid

they remove perfectly valid tags that are useful in searches (albeit niche searches) for basically no reason

and it's all cloaked in the name of "improving the tagging system"

which is the exact opposite of what it actually does

the tail -> invalid_tag alias is fundamentally stupid and i'm amazed it was ever agreed upon by the community

the only reason i suggested it at the time was to attempt to use satire to point out how superfluous and damaging the direction that tagging policy was taking was and is

however that decision is no longer in my hands by any conceivable measure

so all i can do is voice a small opinion on occasion

@null0010

[sarcasm]
This all could be avoided if you have chosen other way to say that you are trolling/being sarcastic then writing without capital letters.
[/sarcasm]

adult has 347 pics tagged with it. There are much, much, much, much more pictures with adult characters. Practically nobody is using this tag. So who exactly benefits from this tag right now?

that is an argument to increase usage of the tag, not excise it

null0010 said:
that is an argument to increase usage of the tag, not excise it

At the expense of other tags?
Everything is always more or less undertagged, and the focus should be on important ones. If we have to tag and clean up ones like adult, that means less time for tagging other things.

Genjar said:
At the expense of other tags?
Everything is always more or less undertagged, and the focus should be on important ones. If we have to tag and clean up ones like adult, that means less time for tagging other things.

This. Plus letting adult tag stay would probably mean that sooner or later someone would suggest to unalias many other tags like anthro_on_anthro, or maybe suggest some new. In fact I just invented one - anyone for pictures with solo, duo, or group.

No, it's not slippery slope fallacy since it has happened before with bronies and stupid pony tags.

Genjar said:
everything is always more or less undertagged, and the focus should be on important ones

this is a fallacious argument

there is plenty of time to tag every image properly

null0010 said:
this is a fallacious argument

there is plenty of time to tag every image properly

Time is not a problem.
Problem is the fact that people become tired/have more serious things to do.

If you're willing to invent an AI to tag things correctly then we can talk. I look forward to replacing everyone with robots.

again the argument is fallacious

there is literally no reason being presented other than "tag bloat" which is not actually a problem as long as all tags are legitimate and applied correctly

there is no such thing as tag bloat

tags are either valid or invalid

invalid tags are subjective, inflammatory, or nonconstructive

valid tags describe the image

null0010 said:
again the argument is fallacious

there is literally no reason being presented other than "tag bloat" which is not actually a problem as long as all tags are legitimate and applied correctly

there is no such thing as tag bloat

tags are either valid or invalid

invalid tags are subjective, inflammatory, or nonconstructive

valid tags describe the image

Oh subjective tags aren't that much of a problem...

anthro
dolor
horsecock
nipples
sad
saddened
sadness
sorrow
super_spooky_skeleton

what exactly is that list of tags meant to convey

null0010 said:
what exactly is that list of tags meant to convey

Synonyms.

so nipples and super_spooky_skeleton mean the same thing

okay

null0010 said:
so nipples and super_spooky_skeleton mean the same thing

okay

Nah, it's just comedic effect.

alright so you're telling me that your last few posts had no purpose and didn't contribute anything to the discussion

roger that

null0010 said:
there is plenty of time to tag every image properly

Ahahaha. No.
The more I tag, the more obvious it becomes that I've just scratched the surface.

If I worked eight hours per day, my current projects would still keep me busy for years. And that's just a small portion of all the tags that need fixing, without even taking new posts and mistags into account.

No matter how much time I sink into those projects, they just keep growing instead of shrinking. No, there's not enough time to tag everything.

Genjar said:
Ahahaha. No.
The more I tag, the more obvious it becomes that I've just scratched the surface.

If I worked eight hours per day, my current projects would still keep me busy for years. And that's just a small portion of all the tags that need fixing, without even taking new posts and mistags into account.

No matter how much time I sink into those projects, they just keep growing instead of shrinking. No, there's not enough time to tag everything.

True. Even when I was an OCD tagger (I still am kinda) someone keeps creating invalid tags, keeps putting back a tag on a post that I just fixed, etc. From my experience, properly fixing tags is actually hard work

TheHuskyK9 said:
Even when I was an OCD tagger…

...OCD is a lot more serious than being a neat freak...

Sorry, this is a pet peeve of mine.

Genjar said:
Ahahaha. No.
The more I tag, the more obvious it becomes that I've just scratched the surface.

If I worked eight hours per day, my current projects would still keep me busy for years. And that's just a small portion of all the tags that need fixing, without even taking new posts and mistags into account.

No matter how much time I sink into those projects, they just keep growing instead of shrinking. No, there's not enough time to tag everything.

This. I think the issue may be awareness of what basic tags a posts needs and/or lazy tagging right from the posting stage. So many post are missing even these basic tags that just keeping up with them is a full time job, and then we have all these other tags to deal with as well. Fixing everything would be a herculean task even for a large group of users.

"tagging is hard" is not a reason to delete valid tags

just tag better

null0010 said:
"tagging is hard" is not a reason to delete valid tags

just tag better

Tags like this are currently not valid. Whether you were trolling people using satire when suggesting all the aliases you mentioned doesn't change the fact that they were accepted. You are suggesting to change the rules about how things are tagged. And you're not an admin anymore. So if you want to convince people that rules should be changed you probably need something more than arrogant "just tag better".

Or maybe I just don't get your posts, and you are still trolling using satire. I'm not sure now.

there is literally no argument against this tag other than "i don't want to have to tag it" or "it would be hard" and those are stupid arguments

null0010 said:
there is literally no argument against this tag other than "i don't want to have to tag it" or "it would be hard" and those are stupid arguments

But would this tag actually help anyone? It's really not that hard to find (or avoid) images with adults...
Even if the insane amount of work required is somehow not an issue, the only benefit anyone would gain from this would be making it marginally easier to find something that's already incredibly easy to find.

maybe someone's fetish is images with both grown characters and characters with the 'young' tag

"i don't know if this tag is useful" isn't a helpful yardstick, because something that may not be apparent to you or i may be considered very useful by someone else

null0010 said:
there is literally no argument against this tag other than "i don't want to have to tag it" or "it would be hard" and those are stupid arguments

I'm pretty confused by your posts in this thread. Are you for the alias, against it, or just here to argue semantics? I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just not sure what you're trying to convey, so I had to ask bluntly.

null0010 said:
maybe someone's fetish is images with both grown characters and characters with the 'young' tag

age_difference?

If someone could enlighten me as to how this could be useful, then sure! But the argument that we should have this tag for the sake of having it just isn't going to convince me.

null0010 said:
maybe someone's fetish is images with both grown characters and characters with the 'young' tag

"i don't know if this tag is useful" isn't a helpful yardstick, because something that may not be apparent to you or i may be considered very useful by someone else

By your logic should we validate all tags like <species>_<gender>? Sure there are over 20000 of them and someone should have tag them but as you said - time is not a problem. Come on guys, let's do the tagging!

I assure you that I've seen on forum much more people complaining about lack of <species>_<gender> tags than people complaining about lack of adult, or furry tag (Don't you feel bad about those people who have fetish for furry character and not furry characters?).

Oh, this was me using satire BTW.

Granberia said:
By your logic should we validate all tags like <species>_<gender>? Sure there are over 20000 of them and someone should have tag them but as you said - time is not a problem. Come on guys, let's do the tagging!

I assure you that I've seen on forum much more people complaining about lack of <species>_<gender> tags than people complaining about lack of adult, or furry tag (Don't you feel bad about those people who have fetish for furry character and not furry characters?).

Oh, this was me using satire BTW.

I think we should bring the tail tag back too :P

Tokaido said:
I think we should bring the tail tag back too :P

Dunno why we'd need it, when we can already search for *_tail.

(That's why I've been pushing for uniform tag names: wildcards are handy for many things.)

As for the adult tag? It's been said before, but since Null isn't paying attention: there are other reasons to invalidate it. Some users tag it for porn, in the same way as explicit was tagged before we got rid of that.

Not to mention that the line between young and adult, and adult and old is very vague. Especially for toony characters.

Here's a sample of what's currently tagged as adult:
post #536014 post #341150 post #513761

Granberia said:
By your logic should we validate all tags like <species>_<gender>? Sure there are over 20000 of them and someone should have tag them but as you said - time is not a problem. Come on guys, let's do the tagging!

you are correct, because it is a fault of the tagging system that species/gender tags do not exist

what if someone only wants to see pictures with female lions

you can't tag search for that now

null0010 said:
you are correct, because it is a fault of the tagging system that species/gender tags do not exist

what if someone only wants to see pictures with female lions

you can't tag search for that now

You're not the first person to feel that way...

Genjar said:
Dunno why we'd need it, when we can already search for *_tail.

(That's why I've been pushing for uniform tag names: wildcards are handy for many things.)

Heh, sorry, I was being sarcastic.

null0010 said:
you are correct, because it is a fault of the tagging system that species/gender tags do not exist

what if someone only wants to see pictures with female lions

you can't tag search for that now

The correct solution for that would be Char's 'tag groups' idea, so you can search for a group containing both tags.

Genjar said:
Dunno why we'd need it, when we can already search for *_tail.

(That's why I've been pushing for uniform tag names: wildcards are handy for many things.)

As for the adult tag? It's been said before, but since Null isn't paying attention: there are other reasons to invalidate it. Some users tag it for porn, in the same way as explicit was tagged before we got rid of that.

Not to mention that the line between young and adult, and adult and old is very vague. Especially for toony characters.

Here's a sample of what's currently tagged as adult:
post #536014 post #341150 post #513761

Exactly.

Also, @Null0010: although you've amply seen how well satire and sarcasm do not get across well in forum posts, you continue to use them. And it sabotages your points.

For what it's worth, I do agree with you that some tags have been aliased away a little too hastily. But that is true of any alias or implication proposal: if the right person doesn't speak up, then something can get overlooked. And then, eventually find out the hard way why that alias or implication wouldn't work. And then we fix it (assuming the mods are willing). But that's just hazards of the job. It means people need to clearly bring up the points that they see, and not assume other people will see it automatically or use sarcasm/"satire" to obscure the point when they're making it.

The adult tag has numerous problems with it as is, content can be found in other ways without it, and the benefits of the tag are limited and already covered by other tags. Your main arguments (the ones that seemed serious-ish) seem to be centered around thoroughness and a more-tags-the-better outlook. But functionally duplicate tags actually hurt search-ability by splitting similar content into separate piles when most people will only check one of them. It's also human nature to look at a trait, tag it once, and then move on feeling that it is tagged/handled/done. So we can get practical levels of thoroughness by making sure everything is possible to find in one way or another, but this doesn't mean keeping every tag. Thoughtfully pruning the tag system is necessary to make it more functional.

I think snipping the adult tag is one of these cases. Anything "adult" can be found searching -young -old and anything that was young + another age group can be found searching young age_difference. I don't see anything to be gained from fixing and keeping the tag though. Fact is: age is usually drawn ambiguously unless they're going for either extreme in age (young or old) so anything from older teenagers to mid-thirties often looks the same. Age traits can actually vary from one panel to another in a comic depending on how well the artist is at drawing consistently. Age can often be interpreted or debated whether that looks like a 16 year old anthro rabbit or a college aged anthro rabbit, etc. If we kept the adult tag, then those images could easily switch from one tag group to the other from time to time, making it inconsistent which search someone would need to run in order to find it. At least if a searcher is using age_difference then if the age difference is enough to be noticeable, it won't matter that some people think the image looks like an older teenager and others think it looks like a college student. The search required to find it wouldn't change no matter which way people decide to interpret the age being depicted. So using age_difference to find those images instead of "adult" might be a more stable search in the long run.

i am not being sarcastic at all

there is no sarcasm from me on this entire thread page

there is simply no valid reason to excise the tag

the only ones presented are:

a) "i don't want to tag that"

b) "tagging that would take too much time"

c) "people might abuse it"

d) "there are other tags that are almost the same thing"

i can say those things about literally any tag

please do not act like i somehow do not understand the tagging system anymore just because i am no longer site staff

I don't think anyone doubts that you understand the tagging system, I think they doubt that you understand the concept of scalability.

Genjar said:
They can search for something like 'young ~parent ~teacher ~old ~age_difference -rating:explicit'.

It's better to have a small set of tags that get tagged well, than a bloaty one that's undertagged.

Does the ~ mean "One of these"?

Furrin_Gok said:
Does the ~ mean "One of these"?

Pretty much.

If you didn't know about it, there's a pretty good cheatsheet on the wiki that can go into more detail. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions.

Durandal said:
...OCD is a lot more serious than being a neat freak...

Sorry, this is a pet peeve of mine.

I actually have OCD fyi

null0010 said:
i am not being sarcastic at all

there is no sarcasm from me on this entire thread page

there is simply no valid reason to excise the tag

the only ones presented are:

a) "i don't want to tag that"

b) "tagging that would take too much time"

c) "people might abuse it"

d) "there are other tags that are almost the same thing"

i can say those things about literally any tag

please do not act like i somehow do not understand the tagging system anymore just because i am no longer site staff

I could just as easily argue that there's also no valid reason to keep and use the tag.

It boils down to this: Tags that are not very useful and often improperly used should be invalidated because tag clutter is unnecessary and harmful to searches. Most of the people here think that adult is not very useful, and it's pretty obvious that it's used improperly a good amount of the time. If it were a small problem then we could fix the tag if it were important to enough people, but the problem is huge, would require much time and effort to fix, and provide very little payoff since no one uses the tag much, and there are already other tags that mostly take this tag's place. So it's better off being invalidated.

If keeping this particular tag is really important to you though, make a good case for it.

if y'all want to destroy the only thing that stands between us and danbooru

be my guest

TheHuskyK9 said:
I actually have OCD fyi

Oh, sorry then. It just bothers me when I hear stuff like, "I'm so ADD/OCD/whatever! Look how quirky I am!"

null0010 said:
if y'all want to destroy the only thing that stands between us and danbooru

be my guest

I prefer to imagine that we're preventing the site from turning into inkbunny.

why the adult tag havent been invalidated yet?

Mutisija said:
why the adult tag havent been invalidated yet?

That is anyone's guess. But alias of adult to --> invalid_tag is now approved because: although some tags have, and are, gotten rid of too hastily, this is not one of them. Adult is the most ambiguous age group and in a majority of cases it would be impossible to determine whether or not a character in an image is one except in a "doesn't look old, doesn't look young and doesn't look like a teenager, so it might be an adult" deductive reasoning type of logic. So we might as well tag it that way. The rest of those other age groups are more reliable to define and are already tagged. So "adult" is everything not better described with one of the other tags. Which works well for something that is difficult to reliably identify in any given image.

Another main reason the adult tag was invalidated, was because it was also commonly misused as a rating tag for maturity. So even if we'd wanted to keep the concept of tagging your average "probably/possibly fully grown" characters, it still would have been better to invalidate this one and rename the tag to something else less prone to such frequent misuse.

Quite simply put: the adult tag was messy, impractical, and easily replaced by either searching -old -young and by using age_difference to find examples where more than one age group is present. As long as the exceptions to appearing "adultlike" are tagged (young, old, teenager etc) then anything left is most likely in an adult-like range of appearance. Those who want to avoid anything not-adult can easily blacklist old, young, teenager etc to ensure anything that is better tagged younger or older than a generic "adult" doesn't show up for them.