The tag implication #45505 helmet_only -> mostly_nude has been rejected.

Reason: Helmets are considered armor, which is considered clothing when a character is wearing it. In order to have the helmet_only tag, the character must be wearing the helmet, thus making it clothing.

Implicating headgear_only to mostly_nude is not possible. Headsets implicate headgear, yet headsets are not clothing, so a character with only a headset would be considered nude instead. Headdresses likewise implicate headgear and are not always clothing since the tag may be used for minimal ornamental jewelry worn on the head (see: Ankha being commonly tagged with headdress).

Off the top of my head, I cannot think of a helmet being worn that wouldn't constitute clothing by the definition of the armor tag.

EDIT: It may also be prudent for helmet_only to implicate clothing since armor is being worn, making it clothing.

EDIT: The tag implication helmet_only -> mostly_nude (forum #340968) has been rejected by @slyroon.

It strikes me that helmets have far more in common with hats than they do headsets, and as such should probably imply headwear instead.

post #917369
Are ferals eligible for the helmet_only or mostly_nude tags?

thegreatwolfgang said:
post #917369
Are ferals eligible for the helmet_only or mostly_nude tags?

Neither. As discussed a few months ago a year ago, the consensus seems to be that tags relating to various states of dress and undress should specifically exclude ferals, as they are expected to be nude anyway. clothed feral identifies those exceptions, and that tag combined with the particular article of clothing should be sufficient.

scaliespe said:
Neither. As discussed a few months ago a year ago, the consensus seems to be that tags relating to various states of dress and undress should specifically exclude ferals, as they are expected to be nude anyway. clothed feral identifies those exceptions, and that tag combined with the particular article of clothing should be sufficient.

I don't see what that has to do with *_only tags. If a feral is only wearing a helmet, helmet_only should apply. It would be odd to not be able to tag a feral character is wearing only a specific type of clothing when that's all they're wearing, just because an implication would apply a bad tag. That would indicate a bad implication, rather than the source tag being inapplicable.

But either way, that image shows another issue with this implication. Even if they were anthro, calling those types of helmet "clothing" for the purposes of mostly_nude would be wrong. They're still be completely nude since the helmet is transparent and not covering anything.

watsit said:
I don't see what that has to do with *_only tags. If a feral is only wearing a helmet, helmet_only should apply. It would be odd to not be able to tag a feral character is wearing only a specific type of clothing when that's all they're wearing, just because an implication would apply a bad tag. That would indicate a bad implication, rather than the source tag being inapplicable.

On the contrary, I think a feral wearing only a helmet should only be tagged helmet (or also clothed_feral if a helmet is considered clothing). The *_only tags imply a certain level of nudity which is irrelevant to ferals that are nude by default and are therefore disqualified from the nude tag.

watsit said:

But either way, that image shows another issue with this implication. Even if they were anthro, calling those types of helmet "clothing" for the purposes of mostly_nude would be wrong. They're still be completely nude since the helmet is transparent and not covering anything.

If those types of “helmets” can be considered helmets for tagging, I wouldn’t call it clothing. However, helmet currently implies armor, and those astronaut helmets are definitely not armor, so in that case it would just be a mistag. Armor helmets are covering enough that I would consider them clothing, however, and the astronaut helmet things should probably get a separate tag entirely.

scaliespe said:
However, helmet currently implies armor, and those astronaut helmets are definitely not armor, so in that case it would just be a mistag.

Unless you want to consider it armor against a hostile environment: the near vacuum of space. Arguably, it doesn't have to hide anything to be armor, just protect it.

scaliespe said:

thegreatwolfgang said:
post #917369

clothed feral identifies those exceptions, and that tag combined with the particular article of clothing should be sufficient.

yeah, but unfortunately clothed_feral implies clothed. which means it's kind of a mess when you want to use that tag for a post like this, with feral characters wearing something that'd be considered clothing, but in a state where a non-feral would be considered mostly_nude.
so there's this grey area of posts like post #1627057, post #1809981 and the one above being forced to be either tagged as clothed or not tagged as clothed_feral.

darryus said:
yeah, but unfortunately clothed_feral implies clothed. which means it's kind of a mess when you want to use that tag for a post like this, with feral characters wearing something that'd be considered clothing, but in a state where a non-feral would be considered mostly_nude.
so there's this grey area of posts like post #1627057, post #1809981 and the one above being forced to be either tagged as clothed or not tagged as clothed_feral.

‘mostly_nude‘ characters should be tagged as clothed regardless, so I don’t see that as a problem. Both of those examples are clothed. Mostly nude is, by definition, wearing clothing of some kind, otherwise we’d just tag it as nude.

scaliespe said:
As discussed a few months ago a year ago, the consensus seems to be that tags relating to various states of dress and undress should specifically exclude ferals, as they are expected to be nude anyway.

It seems though that the current definition of nude is much more complex than that of a year ago.
In the context of ferals, nude is eligible to be tagged "when the nudity status of the character is relevant to the context / nature of the scene" and that it may be considered relevant if:

• The character is in an intentionally provocative pose that sexualizes the character.
• The context suggests that nudity for that character is not normative. If an exposure theme applies, nudity is relevant.
• Etc.

So, in effect, a partially clothed_feral can be considered eligible for the mostly_nude tags and so on.

scaliespe said:
‘mostly_nude‘ characters should be tagged as clothed regardless, so I don’t see that as a problem. Both of those examples are clothed. Mostly nude is, by definition, wearing clothing of some kind, otherwise we’d just tag it as nude.

yeah, but it really dosn't seem like most anyone else agrees with that stance. mostly_nude and clothed seem like much more useful tags when one isn't implying the other.

thegreatwolfgang said:
It seems though that the current definition of nude is much more complex than that of a year ago.
In the context of ferals, nude is eligible to be tagged "when the nudity status of the character is relevant to the context / nature of the scene" and that it may be considered relevant if:

• The character is in an intentionally provocative pose that sexualizes the character.
• The context suggests that nudity for that character is not normative. If an exposure theme applies, nudity is relevant.
• Etc.

So, in effect, a partially clothed_feral can be considered eligible for the mostly_nude tags and so on.

This complicates things, and I don’t recall seeing any discussion about this change taking place.

But even so, it would still clearly not apply to the example images given above, which should not be tagged nude or mostly_nude or anything that implies these tags in any case.

darryus said:
yeah, but it really dosn't seem like most anyone else agrees with that stance.

No, but I still haven’t heard any good objections. It could garner all the downvotes in the world and that still wouldn’t make it incorrect.

mostly_nude

and clothed seem like much more useful tags when one isn't implying the other.

I’m not sure about this, either. It likewise implies that articles of clothing like socks and hat would be more useful separate from clothing which should only be for things that cover the torso. Personally, I’m thinking if I’m searching the clothed tag, I want to find characters wearing by any kind of clothing, even if it’s just socks. There are already so many specific subsets of clothed if I want anything more specific than that - topless, bottomless, fully clothed, partially clothed, and so on. Mostly_nude being just one more subset of clothed is hardly diluting the tag at this point.

scaliespe said:
This complicates things, and I don’t recall seeing any discussion about this change taking place.

But even so, it would still clearly not apply to the example images given above, which should not be tagged nude or mostly_nude or anything that implies these tags in any case.

Might want to ask @TheVileOne about that one since they wrote that section a couple of months back.

I would agree on the point that the example does not fit the criteria for nude, but it still is eligible for the helmet_only and clothed_feral tags (barring the argument on whether a helmet is considered a clothing or not).

but it still is eligible for the helmet_only and clothed_feral tags

I don’t think any of the *_only tags should apply in cases like this either - in any case where nude wouldn’t be relevant on a feral either. Simply put, people searching for *_only are most likely looking for characters in a certain state of nudity. If the nudity of the character isn’t relevant, the tag shouldn’t be used. Or, to bring back an example used last time this was discussed, a tag like collar_only generally implies a situation out of the ordinary. In general, it’s not normal for a person to only wear a collar. Same goes for basically all the *_only tags. That’s sort of the whole reason we bother tagging them - because it’s out of the ordinary. For the same reason, we don’t usually tag swimwear_only - because it’s very normal to wear only a swimsuit, and the vast majority of swimwear posts would qualify, so it’s simply not a useful tag (in fact, I think it should be aliased to swimwear). But ferals, especially of common pet species, very commonly wear only collars. It’s perfectly normal for them. So as a result, allowing collar_only on ferals is going to turn up a bunch of stuff like THIS, and it’s not doing anything that simply tagging feral + collar wouldn’t. In fact, Feral collar rating:s -clothing returns 38 pages of results, which is mostly stuff like this. It would absolutely flood collar only with results that don’t seem to agree with the purpose of the tag, even if they technically fit the definition.

Simply put, people searching for *_only are most likely looking for characters in a certain state of nudity.

I don't think that's true. People searching for x_only are most likely look for characters wearing only x. If you know a character, feral or anthro or whatever else, is wearing x and only x, searching for x_only will really help narrow down the results over searching for x.

The tag implication helmet_only -> mostly_nude (forum #340968) has been rejected by @slyroon.