When tagging posts, we often focus on TWYS (tag what you see). However, when it comes to family members and relatives, how can you be absolutely certain that the characters are related just by looking at the artwork? Of course an artist may draw some characters similar to one another or include dialogue that suggests they are related, but how can you be certain that it’s a parent, grandparent, sibling, uncle/aunt, nephew/niece, cousin, an in-law, or just unrelated characters?

In short, it’s practically not possible to assume that certain characters are related just via TWYS. We somehow have to rely on what an artist says or what the canon is.

E621 has a set of tags known as ‘lore’ tags. In general, they don’t necessarily comply with TWYS, but depend more on what the original canon is. For example, a character may look young, but they are canonically speaking an adult (see adult_(lore)).

In conclusion, it would probably make more sense if all family-related tags are categorized as ‘lore’ tags, since TWYS alone can’t define if certain characters are related.

What are your thoughts on this?

+1 moving relationship tags to the lore category.

+1
I can see that being usefull in comics where the relatives aren't visible in the same image.

They're technically already supposed to be lore tags, if I recall correctly the first BUR failed because it tried to change their category without adding the (lore) suffix, and adding the suffix has a whole mess of aliases/implications that first need to be deleted and then added again at the new (lore) tag. It just seems like nobody has wanted to take the time to sort out that mess.

faucet said:
They're technically already supposed to be lore tags, if I recall correctly the first BUR failed because it tried to change their category without adding the (lore) suffix, and adding the suffix has a whole mess of aliases/implications that first need to be deleted and then added again at the new (lore) tag. It just seems like nobody has wanted to take the time to sort out that mess.

Oh, I wasn't aware. I might try to take a look at that once I finish posting my pokemon burs

If any of you fancy making a BUR for this, good luck.

wat8548 said:
If any of you fancy making a BUR for this, good luck.

Can do, the final result must be aliasing it all to grandparent_and_grandchild_(lore), correct?

m3g4p0n1 said:
Can do, the final result must be aliasing it all to grandparent_and_grandchild_(lore), correct?

Yes, but that's far from all that needs to be done. As I mentioned last time this topic came up, about a week ago, the annoying part is going to be making sure you've tracked down every familial relation tag, since we don't have any sort of umbrella tag linking an implication hierarchy together. My preference would be for related_(lore), with topic #3969 repealed and aliased incest-style instead. Right now all we have is this wiki which itself claims to be incomplete.

wat8548 said:
Yes, but that's far from all that needs to be done. As I mentioned last time this topic came up, about a week ago, the annoying part is going to be making sure you've tracked down every familial relation tag, since we don't have any sort of umbrella tag linking an implication hierarchy together. My preference would be for related_(lore), with topic #3969 repealed and aliased incest-style instead. Right now all we have is this wiki which itself claims to be incomplete.

Hmm, I see, one connects to the other in a rather messy network of tags.

But can't we do one at a time?
1) First doing grandparent_and_grandchild -> grandparent_and_grandchild_(lore).
-remove all aliases and implications
-alias and imply all previous tags as they currently are to the new lore one.

2) Then going to grandfather_and_grandchild -> grandfather_and_grandchild_(lore).
repeat previous.

Sure, that means for a while we will have mixed lore and non-lore tags, but progress is being done.

Other than making requests, I’m not so familiar how e621 functions with regards to tags. Isn’t there a tool that can somehow make this alias/implication removal process faster? Any admin/janitor/contributor who might have a program that can help with that?

What about the ‘Edit Tag’ button on the wikis? Can you change the tag category from there?

It’s understandable that not every tag can be changed at once, but we can at least try to do as many as possible. If certain tags are discovered later, they can be changed then.

Might actually be easier with multiple aliases rather than BURs since those handle all the transitives automatically. It would end up spamming the forums with threads though, since the ability to assign a topic to a single alias request isn't implemented yet.

+1 finnaly someone said it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5znpQLH8vE

Alright, I’ve made a list of as many tags as I could find that are family-related (including stepfamily members and in-laws). Some of these tags don’t have posts, but are still relevant. There are probably more tags out there, but for now this list should give a basic idea of how many ‘relatives’ tags e621 has.

The list does not include aliased/implicated tags or any explicit tags like ‘xxx_penetrating_xxx’.

============

^^^
What we have are various tags that describe a single character (see ‘single’) and the different pairs (see ‘pair’). I see how this might frighten admin users to even try and change the tags.

m3g4p0n1 said:
1) First doing grandparent_and_grandchild -> grandparent_and_grandchild_(lore).
-remove all aliases and implications
-alias and imply all previous tags as they currently are to the new lore one.

2) Then going to grandfather_and_grandchild -> grandfather_and_grandchild_(lore).
repeat previous.

Sure, that means for a while we will have mixed lore and non-lore tags, but progress is being done.

That’s actually not a bad idea. All that needs to be done is to keep track on all the aliases/implications and then add them to the new xxx_(lore) tags. It will indeed take time, but it’s a step forward.
What if we start with changing the ‘single’ tags first and then proceed with the ‘pairs’? At least the single tags can already suggest that a certain character is related to another.

Even though the ‘single’ tags describe a specific character, it should be noted that these tags are only to be used if there are two or more characters in a post.

faucet said:
Might actually be easier with multiple aliases rather than BURs since those handle all the transitives automatically. It would end up spamming the forums with threads though, since the ability to assign a topic to a single alias request isn't implemented yet.

It would be a lot easier for an admin to do than users making BURs, so maybe we can just hope somebody will take it upon themselves to do it for us.

Hopefully the BURs will be updated with this feature soon and this whole process can be done in an instant. Doing separate aliases would be a severe headache.