Posted under Tag Alias and Implication Suggestions
The tag implication #50131 zebesian -> space_pirate_(species) is pending approval.
Reason: Zebesians are one of multiple races that make up the space pirates as an organization.
In addition, the "species" part of the tag should probably be changed to "space_pirate_(metroid)", seeing as that name doesn't strictly refer to any one species.
I'm still not sure about distinguishing them. As you quoted in the previous thread, Sakamoto said "the Pirates that invaded Zebes took "Zebesian" as a general name for themselves after the conquest of the planet", but that's only a sub-group of the species, and they're still the same as they were before taking over the planet. There's no mention of how long they had control of the planet, but it doesn't seem to have been more than a generation since Ridley was involved in the conquest.
Incidentally, the wiki also says:
Ridley is said to have been the "original Zebesian" according to the information in the first game's instruction manual. The Virtual Console re-translation of the manual says that he is "an indigenous life-form of Zebes".
Meaning that Ridley's unnamed species would be a better fit for "Zebesian", not the other pirates.
And in any case, the zebesian tag seems to be functionally synonymous with space_pirate_(species), aside from some posts of ridley erroneously tagged space_pirate_(species) (Ridley's species is not the same as the other pirates'), so they're better aliased together.
watsit said:
And in any case, the zebesian tag seems to be functionally synonymous with space_pirate_(species), aside from some posts of ridley erroneously tagged space_pirate_(species) (Ridley's species is not the same as the other pirates'), so they're better aliased together.
This was why I made that last thread, but after your responses, including you outright suggesting that this be an alias instead, I reconsidered and agreed. I'm... rather confused, you seemed pretty strongly against the idea of aliasing them before. I feel like I've misunderstood you somewhere?
Edit: That said, there are space pirates who are definitively not the creatures who call themselves zebestians, which is why I ultimately changed my mind and created this instead.
nevannedall said:
This was why I made that last thread, but after your responses, including you outright suggesting that this be an alias instead, I reconsidered and agreed. I'm... rather confused, you seemed pretty strongly against the idea of aliasing them before. I feel like I've misunderstood you somewhere?
I said that, at best, the "Zebesian" Space Pirates would be a sub-group of the Space Pirate "species". But considering even that sub-group of Space Pirates aren't from Zebes (while there are other species, apparently including Ridley's species, that are), and the distinction between those on Zebes compared to those on Tallon IV, Aether, and even their homeworld, isn't easily to quantify (we don't know if the differences are biological or cybernetic, natural or artificial), trying to separate them out isn't easy, if possible at all. There's no telling how much any visual differences are meant as distinguishing separate sub-groups, compared to being a result of different developers and design teams.
I disagreed with the space_pirate_(species) -> zebesian alias, due to them not being referred to as Zebesian in official media and because they're not native to Zebes, but a zebesian -> space_pirate_(species) alias may make more sense if there isn't more official/canonical information and people will use the tags interchangeably anyway.
watsit said:
I said that, at best, the "Zebesian" Space Pirates would be a sub-group of the Space Pirate "species". But considering even that sub-group of Space Pirates aren't from Zebes (while there are other species, apparently including Ridley's species, that are), and the distinction between those on Zebes compared to those on Tallon IV, Aether, and even their homeworld, isn't easily to quantify (we don't know if the differences are biological or cybernetic, natural or artificial), trying to separate them out isn't easy, if possible at all. There's no telling how much any visual differences are meant as distinguishing separate sub-groups, compared to being a result of different developers and design teams.I disagreed with the space_pirate_(species) -> zebesian alias, due to them not being referred to as Zebesian in official media and because they're not native to Zebes, but a zebesian -> space_pirate_(species) alias may make more sense if there isn't more official/canonical information and people will use the tags interchangeably anyway.
I don't really agree with using space pirate as the species for all of them, because that's the one thing we know they're not called as a species.
Zebesians having stolen the name they use for themselves in-universe doesn't really change that that's what they're called as a species, now. We're not the UN, we don't need to weigh in on the legitimacy of their claim, it's what they call themselves and what the rest of the universe probably calls them, so it's what I feel they should be tagged as.
The other races of space pirates, while they don't have any known official names that I'm aware of, aren't exactly posted often either, from what I can tell. The few times they come up, they can simply be tagged as space_pirate_(metroid) as well as unknown_species, since that's what they are.
If we're going to tag them all under space pirate, I still insist on changing it from "species" to "metroid" at the bare minimum to be accurate to what we do definitely know. The Space Pirates are not a race of people, they're a criminal enterpise.
Updated
nevannedall said:
Zebesians having stolen the name they use for themselves in-universe doesn't really change that that's what they're called as a species, now.
Which was only mentioned out-of-game in an interview with a developer, which I don't think counts as canonical information since he doesn't own the series (it's up to Nintendo, not him, about what becomes canon). And it doesn't clarify what distinguishes the sub-groups, which ones are "Zebesian" and which ones aren't.
nevannedall said:
If we're going to tag them all under space pirate, I still insist on changing it from "species" to "metroid" at the bare minimum to be accurate to what we do definitely know. Space pirates are not a race of people, they're a criminal enterpise.
I would agree with changing the "_(species)" to "_(metroid)", to clarify it's talking about the things in the Metroid series (other series can have space pirates, that may or may not also make up a species). But I'd still leave it as a species tag since it's referring to that unnamed species that make up the bulk of space pirate forces we see/fight.
Further research/sources
Super Metroid Manual:
https://www.nintendo.co.jp/clvs/manuals/common/pdf/CLV-P-SAAHE.pdf Page 34
Frankly, I think even if this some how still wasn't 100% official canon (some manuals have mistakes/incorrect information), it's the most widely accepted name by the community, with supporting evidence from, while not ironclad, still good, first hand sources, with no reasonable alternative. I see no reason not to use it.
Edit: Other-M also refers to them as "Zebes" in the un-translated guidebook
https://metroid.fandom.com/wiki/Super_Zebesian?file=JP_Other_M_Guide_164.jpg
Updated
nevannedall said:
Further research/sources
Super Metroid Manual:
https://www.nintendo.co.jp/clvs/manuals/common/pdf/CLV-P-SAAHE.pdf Page 34
[...]
Edit: Other-M also refers to them as "Zebes" in the un-translated guidebook
https://metroid.fandom.com/wiki/Super_Zebesian?file=JP_Other_M_Guide_164.jpg
Well, I guess I can't argue with that. In that case I'm not sure it makes sense to have a space_pirate_(species) or space_pirate_(metroid) tag at all, unless we're expecting art of other non-Zebesian pirate species. And even if so, it shouldn't be a species tag for reasons you've previously stated.
Bump
