Implicating league_of_legends → video_games
Link to implication

Reason:

League of Legends is a MOBA game.
http://leagueoflegends.com/

the video games tag is for people playing video games in the image, not for characters from a video game.

Halite said:
the video games tag is for people playing video games in the image, not for characters from a video game.

That's...not accurate.

video_games is a broad tag that should probably be split into video_game_characters and playing_video_games (or tags like that) to make it 80% more useful.

But currently it's used for all of the above and just about anything related to video games in general. That's what the wiki says, what almost all of the dozens of implications to video_games are about, what almost all of the images tagged with video_games are about, and what every forum thread on the topic seems to say.

furrypickle said:
That's...not accurate.

video_games is a broad tag that should probably be split into video_game_characters and playing_video_games (or tags like that) to make it 80% more useful.

But currently it's used for all of the above and just about anything related to video games in general. That's what the wiki says, what almost all of the dozens of implications to video_games are about, what almost all of the images tagged with video_games are about, and what every forum thread on the topic seems to say.

Damn it, when did that change?
That didn't used to be the way it was used.

Halite said:
Damn it, when did that change?
That didn't used to be the way it was used.

I don't know. It's been that way for at least a year, probably longer. Like I said, I think it's overly broad to the point of being useless, and that it needs split at the very least just to be useful again. It's probably a good thing that it's come up again, since it's been a mess for quite awhile now apparently.

Not only is it overly broad, it's pointless in concept.
Who is going to search for, or black list, literally every character from every video game, ever.
That's just silly.

furrypickle said:
I don't know. It's been that way for at least a year, probably longer. Like I said, I think it's overly broad to the point of being useless, and that it needs split at the very least just to be useful again. It's probably a good thing that it's come up again, since it's been a mess for quite awhile now apparently.

So, I was right, one person, without discussion(I looked for the thread) changed the entire meaning of this tag a while ago.
And despite the discussion a year ago that we should fix this problem, it has continued to be used incorrectly.

So, how about we fix the damn thing?

Halite said:
Not only is it overly broad, it's pointless in concept.
Who is going to search for, or black list, literally every character from every video game, ever.
That's just silly.

Yeah. I was leaving benefit of the doubt because some tags that I don't get are really useful to someone else. But this one? I'm not sure anyone uses it to search for all video game characters ever.

But I do think things like people playing video games should be under a slightly different more clearly worded tag, or else habit alone will mess it up very quickly. Something like "playing_videogames" would be a whole lot clearer what it's actually supposed to be used for, and prevent someone from just adding "video_games" out of habit.

Halite said:
So, I was right, one person, without discussion(I looked for the thread) changed the entire meaning of this tag a while ago.
And despite the discussion a year ago that we should fix this problem, it has continued to be used incorrectly.

So, how about we fix the damn thing?

Tag discussions getting dropped has been the source of so much angst and frustration...At this point we'd need a whole lot of implications undone before anything could be changed.

Also, because video_games got messed up for so long, the tag gaming was invented and used for instances of someone playing a video game. Though I'm not a fan of it as a tag name because it doesn't seem very intuitive or clear to me. Maybe that's because I'm not a gamer though. Would most people use "gaming" for that without thinking about it? I just know that it wouldn't be my first guess of what tag to use when faced with an image of a character playing a videogame. I'd try something more straightforward like "playing_videogame" first. Especially since...

We also have while_playing_videogame for when people are having sex while playing a video game. That's probably the most functional out of all these tags right now. It probably won't even need any clean up in fact. But it also would make the most sense to have the regular "non-sex while playing videogames" tag be similar in format/structure, so something like playing_videogame might be the better tag for all pictures of characters playing videogames? And then implicate while_playing_videogame to -> playing_videogame. And alias gaming to --> playing_videogame, and then clean out video_games (including DE-implicating all the video game franchises from video_games, and maybe sending video_games to --> invalid tag to prevent misuse out of habit after all this time [it's a broadly named tag that's been used for all things associated with video games for at least a year now]), etc.

Seems like it would work. What do you think?

Halite said:
So, how about we fix the damn thing?

Good luck with that. I've already tried twice to do something about it, and am not going to waste time on third try. (See forum #94710)

For what it's worth, I agree with furrypickle's suggestion. But actually putting that into action would require over two dozen unimplications. Which we obviously can't do ourselves.

This seems like a pretty big issue that needs a lot of fixing, but I kind of have to agree with Genjar. It's been tried before, but it's still obviously not been resolved. Regardless, I'll throw my two cents in.

Calling the "playing video games" tag gaming seems pretty intuitive to me! It was in fact the first thing tag I tried searching for when I uploaded an image of a duo playing games while doin' it. I'm a gamer though, so it may be because if my hobby. I'm fine with using gaming for that purpose, but I could understand if others thought it was too vague. For what it's worth, I'm fairly certain other avid video game players would understand the tag's intent without a second thought.

I think that having a tag for "content originating from a video game" is worth while, but probably not going to be the most searched tag ever. I've used video_games for that purpose before. Specifically, looking for video game characters being gender swapped, and game characters being "furrified." I can't see anyone blacklisting it... But then again I can't see why anyone would blacklist herm and I know that many people do it :P

Another problem with the video_games tag is the chain of implications from character to copyright to video_games. The question is where, and how, to break the chain.

SaimonPSmith said:
Another problem with the video_games tag is the chain of implications from character to copyright to video_games. The question is where, and how, to break the chain.

I think the implications of character to copyright is fine, just stop it at copyright being the final implication.

Though since Tokaido mentions using this tag to search for all-video-game-characters sometimes then maybe there's a use for creating a videogame_characters tag and just transferring over those implications to that tag. It just depends if people have a use for a tag that has 'all characters from all video games' tagged under it or not? Is this something people use? Or is it not really useful and no one would miss it if we aliased the all-video-game-characters-under-one-tag part of it away? I'd like to see a few more opinions from people on this point.

I'd also like to see a few more people's preferences on whether "gaming" or "playing_videogame" is the preferable tag name to use for images where a character is playing a video game in the image. (As long as they're aliased together, then both will work, but just which one should be the "face" of the tag that everyone sees in the tag lists, etc. Or if anyone has a preference on it at all. It might be simpler to stick with gaming since it already exists. Either one will do the job, I think.)

Halite said:
So, I was right, one person, without discussion(I looked for the thread) changed the entire meaning of this tag a while ago.
And despite the discussion a year ago that we should fix this problem, it has continued to be used incorrectly.

So, how about we fix the damn thing?

I figured out how to view the histories of the video_games wiki with a url workaround. =)

version 1, (posted July, 1, 2011) - defined it as "Any image or animation which shows a Video Game, or characters playing one." --- so it looks like it started out as a broad tag to begin with. Any video game screenshot, any video game case or cover artwork, etc as well as any character being shown playing one would have been valid use of the tag under that description.
version 2, (posted June 25 2012) - defined it as "Any image or animation which shows a video game, characters playing one, or characters from video games." --so that's when it was broadened even further to explicitly include any character who originated from a video game. So it was already too broad and then got taken one step further a mere year later. I'm going to guess that the tag's usage had probably already broadened before that wiki edit and it was just reflecting and reinforcing what they'd seen being tagged under it already.
version 3, (posted May 24 2014 and is the current version) - is the same as above, just someone added a tiny link at the bottom: "see also: gaming" --so that's good. Someone was trying to at least connect the two tags so that people could easily find both.

But it looks like, if there was ever a time when it was only used for characters being shown playing videogames and nothing else, then that use predates the July 2011 wiki. Which means, all the more reason why the video_games tag should probably be aliased away to invalid_tag once every usage we'd like to keep has been separated out into clearer and more specific tags. After all, that's three and a half years (at minimum) of habit that was reinforced by dozens of implications. "video_games" was already an overly broad tag to begin with, but trying to repurpose it at this point would be both uphill and messy. It's just easier to pick clearer tags to replace it with, like gaming/playing_videogame (we'll pick one and alias the other to it) and while_playing_videogame (for sex while playing videogames) and maybe videogame_characters (if there's a use for that last one still).

I'm all for fixing this. And I understand Genjar's valid frustrations. But I think we've got a shot if:
1, we hammer out all the details so that there really is no reason to hang back from implementing it yet.
2, we do have to allow some time for people to see it and say their piece. So we can't do it immediately, but maybe two weeks from now? Surely that's enough time for people to wander through and get the chance to add their perspective and discuss it.
3, Hopefully, we can then get an admin involved to help us pull this off by removing the existing problem implications. We do need their help, but I don't think they're unreasonable. Just maybe busy and need asking.
4, Massive tag cleanup project. But if we use the copyright and game names that were formerly implicated and then mass remove video_games from them, then that should take care of the worst of it rather painlessly. I'm pretty sure the majority of images under video_games are the characters. Searches like nintendo video_games and warcraft video_games etc should help sift out the bulk of the characters under the video_game tag and make them easier to clear out/move. Whatever's left over after cleaning out the former implications and common videogame franchises should be more manageable. What the best strategy is for the cleanup of bad implications is the part I am the least experienced with though, so if there's a better strategy for that we can come up with, then that would work too. First though, we have to hammer out for sure what goes where.

furrypickle said:
I'd also like to see a few more people's preferences on whether "gaming" or "playing_videogame" is the preferable tag name to use for images where a character is playing a video game in the image.

I like the gaming tag, but it's always been slightly problematic: is it only for video games, or do we also tag it for other games, such as card or board? If the latter, then we shouldn't alias playing_videogame to it.

Anyway, if these changes ever get implemented, I can definitely help with the clean up. Sounds like more fun than most of my projects.

I agree with all your points furrypickle, but I have to ask why you think we should have two separate tags for playing_videogames and while_playing_videogames? Wouldn't just searching for "playing_videogames rating:e" do effectively the same thing? There might be a few images that don't exactly fit the bill, but I doubt there would be enough to warrant dividing up the tag itself.

Also, I'll say that losing a tag to search for general videogame characters would be sad, since I do use it every now and then, bug not the end if the world.

Tokaido said:
I agree with all your points furrypickle, but I have to ask why you think we should have two separate tags for playing_videogames and while_playing_videogames? Wouldn't just searching for "playing_videogames rating:e" do effectively the same thing? There might be a few images that don't exactly fit the bill, but I doubt there would be enough to warrant dividing up the tag itself.

Also, I'll say that losing a tag to search for general videogame characters would be sad, since I do use it every now and then, bug not the end if the world.

That makes sense. Since it was the most functional tag out of the bunch, I was just going to leave it. But you do make a good point. It had more use when it was really difficult to find people playing videogames at all, because it gathered together some of those under one tag on a theme (sex). But once there's a consistent tag for all instances of someone playing a videogame then the separate tag for sexy-times-while-playing-a-videogame probably isn't needed. It can simply be searched for those.

I'm also fine with keeping a tag like videogame_characters since it sounds like that usage does get used sometimes. That might be easier when it comes to changing the implications since most could probably just be transferred. I just want it separated out from those playing a videogame and any other uses. Because having them all under one tag doesn't really help anyone find what they're looking for. That's my main motivation is to get them all sorted out into more usable and clearer tags.

Genjar said:
I like the gaming tag, but it's always been slightly problematic: is it only for video games, or do we also tag it for other games, such as card or board? If the latter, then we shouldn't alias playing_videogame to it.

Anyway, if these changes ever get implemented, I can definitely help with the clean up. Sounds like more fun than most of my projects.

Excellent!
And this is exactly the type of factors we need brought up. So maybe it isn't an either/or for gaming vs playing_videogame but instead would an implication work? So:

gaming - all instances of people playing a game, like poker, videogames, etc
--playing_videogame (implicating gaming) - for people being shown playing a videogame

And then tokaido made a good point that while_playing_videogame might no longer be needed once we have playing_videogame since having that tag makes it possible to search it for sexy situations within it. Searches like playing_videogame sex and playing_videogame rating:e should be able to find those types of images within the playing_videogame tag without needing a separate tag for it anymore. So unless there's another angle on that to consider, I'm thinking those two could be aliased together and count on searchability being the way to separate the sex + playing_videogame images out of it. Does that sound like it would work to everyone?

And then have videogame_characters for all the franchises and copyrights to implicate off of, since it sounds like a tag for all-videogame-characters-together is useful for some types of searching. And I'm fine with keeping that function because it gets used, just under a clearer tag (videogame_characters).

Just to keep everything straight so far, here's what it sounds like we may be ending up with:

gaming - for all pictures showing characters playing any type of game, (chess in the park, poker in the basement, videogames in the livingroom etc.).
--playing_videogame (implicating gaming) - for all instances of characters shown playing a videogame, as a type of gaming

(also alias while_playing_videogame to --> playing_videogame because from now on the sex during it can be found through searching it, separate tag no longer needed)

videogame_characters - for all characters which originate from videogames. (videogame copyrights and franchises would be implicated to this tag)
--ratchet_and_clank - 300
--donkey_kong_(series) - 320
--shining_(series) - 323
--spyro_the_dragon - 459
--puzzle_&_dragons - 145
--starbound - 160
--animal_crossing - 1508
--halo_(series) - 393
--the_elder_scrolls - 1480
--street_fighter - 181
--star_fox - 3635
--dust:_an_elysian_tail - 149
--final_fantasy - 2286
--cave_story - 277
--silent_hill - 108
--Ōkami - 470
--left_4_dead_(series) - 99
--the_legend_of_zelda - 2124
--world_of_warcraft - 3218
--mortal_kombat - 123
--monster_hunter - 641
--nintendo - 54210
--crash_bandicoot_(series) - 244
--warcraft - 3653
--capcom - 605
--darkstalkers - 986
--everquest - 266
--minecraft - 455
--assassin's_creed - 64
--guild_wars -366
and --league_of_legends - 928 - the implication being proposed at the top of this thread
(Note: these are just what's currently implicated to video_games that could be simply transferred over to a tag like videgame_characters to retain that search ability.
The number after each one is the number of images tagged with it currently, as listed on its wiki as of last night. Some might have changed, but it's to give a general idea of how much work it would actually take to change any of these implications. It makes it less of an intimidating "unknown" what-would-this-entail for both admins and taggers alike to see that most of these tags aren't that big. I thought it would be useful information to see at a glance.)

And then after everything, video_games would be aliased away to --> invalid_tag for being too broad and messy usage to be useful anymore, the valid uses having been replaced by the clearer set of tags listed above.

Unless we can see other things that need looked at.
For instance, most of the current implications to video_games are a mixture of actual game titles (like final_fantasy) and on other things it's the copyright company (like nintendo). Should all of these game titles instead be implicating directly to a company first, and then only implicate the companies to videogame_characters? Or should we not mess with that at this time and just transfer the implications as-is? I don't actually know that much about videogame companies and who owns what, so someone more familiar with that stuff will have to weigh in on what the best implication path would be on these games.

That sounds great. It makes good sense, seems intuitive, and will hopefully clean up all the tags related to video games. If I could give you fake internet points I would!

Tokaido said:
That sounds great. It makes good sense, seems intuitive, and will hopefully clean up all the tags related to video games. If I could give you fake internet points I would!

Excellent.

Seeing as we're getting into the second week of discussing this, I want to make sure everyone's had a chance to see this, and to say their piece. After this week, I'll be asking admins about getting the implications and aliases end of it completed so that we can handle the cleanup from there. So if you think there's any way to improve the proposed plan, or you think something's being overlooked, now is the perfect time to bring it up for discussion.

So, after furrypickle brought this to my attention, and me reading through the thing, I'm going to tackle this until Spight gives me my *girl and *boy lists.

Anyway, there is one problem, franchise and/or copyright can't implicate videogame_character, since stuff like a pokeball would then force the videogame_character tag, which is probably not something we should have.

So, I'd say we scrap videogame_character and use video_games for anything that is from a videogame, weapons (master sword, pokeball, character, you name it).
Most stuff tagged would still be characters, but this way we don't force a tag where it doesn't belong.

So, if you guys are okay with that solution (everything else that furrypickle said is okay) then I'm going to clean this up.

Also, I'm going to say here what I already told furrypickle, I generally tend to stay away from alias/implication threads since I still fear that my english knowledge is not good enough to be of much use in these threads, but if all you need is an admin to sanity check and finally implement stuff then just ping me somehow and I'll get to it.
Best ways to reach me are, in no particular order, dmail, IRC, and email ([email protected] or [email protected]).

Yay! Thanks NMNY, we appreciate it :3

Edit: And by the way, your English is better than many native English speakers' I've met online. But I'm sure that some of the less common lingo can get weird for someone who didn't grow up speaking it.

NotMeNotYou said:

So, after furrypickle brought this to my attention, and me reading through the thing, I'm going to tackle this until Spight gives me my *girl and *boy lists.

Anyway, there is one problem, franchise and/or copyright can't implicate videogame_character, since stuff like a pokeball would then force the videogame_character tag, which is probably not something we should have.

So, I'd say we scrap videogame_character and use video_games for anything that is from a videogame, weapons (master sword, pokeball, character, you name it).
Most stuff tagged would still be characters, but this way we don't force a tag where it doesn't belong.

So, if you guys are okay with that solution (everything else that furrypickle said is okay) then I'm going to clean this up.

Also, I'm going to say here what I already told furrypickle, I generally tend to stay away from alias/implication threads since I still fear that my english knowledge is not good enough to be of much use in these threads, but if all you need is an admin to sanity check and finally implement stuff then just ping me somehow and I'll get to it.
Best ways to reach me are, in no particular order, dmail, IRC, and email ([email protected] or [email protected]).

Ah, I can see what you said about logic error on that one aspect. I didn't even think of that so I'm glad you caught it. Those changes would work, I think. It also greatly reduces the amount of cleanup that'll be needed too. So I guess, now it's mostly just the changes between gaming, playing_videogame and while_playing_videogame (one UN/implication, and then one implication and one alias).

And also the original poster's implication of league_of_legends to --> video_games. They've been a very good sport about having their thread become a much bigger discussion about how the related tags should be, but I want to make sure their implication doesn't end up getting lost and overlooked.

So yeah, it sounds like a good solution.

Ok, I just finished the ones agreed on here that got lost:

implicating playing_videogame to --> gaming
aliasing while_playing_videogame to --> playing_videogame since now that there's a tag for the circumstances, we don't need a separate tag for playing_videogame + explicit or sexy scenarios, because that can be searched now. And getting them tagged with multitasking will just have to happen manually.

I know this one has been waiting to be finished for far too long, and I apologise for not getting it done sooner.