This is kind of it's own tangent derived from the voice actors and sound thread, but it is more general overall. What is the role in which a tag is supposed to serve on e621?

I have come to view tags as "things that people might search for or block" more recently. I saw it differently in the past, but kind of just came to accept that generalist definition since that is the most all encompassing way of putting it.

Apparently that is not the whole purpose of a tag, according to how some people act around them.

I've seen entire tags removed from all posts with no apparent discussion before as well, reported for vandalism, investigation concluded no changes done. Don't want to revert all the posts because that might piss off whoever did those changes and since they were let off in the report maybe just going whole hog and removing an entire tag is acceptable here, I dunno. Don't want to step on someone's feet after they apparently got admin protection for it.

The thread referenced wants to invalidate many contributor tags with no secondary measures in place. Where is the harm of it being searchable?

This site has been making less and less sense lately.

deadoon said:
This is kind of it's own tangent derived from the voice actors and sound thread, but it is more general overall. What is the role in which a tag is supposed to serve on e621?

I have come to view tags as "things that people might search for or block" more recently. I saw it differently in the past, but kind of just came to accept that generalist definition since that is the most all encompassing way of putting it.

That is fairly accurate, actually:
https://e621.net/help/tags

Tags are keywords that you can use to describe posts.
They serve a dual purpose: they allow you to both find the content that you like, and to filter out stuff that you dislike.

Tags may belong to various categories, and may interact with each other via relationships.

deadoon said:
I've seen entire tags removed from all posts with no apparent discussion before as well, reported for vandalism, investigation concluded no changes done.

Not all tags are valid. Primarily, the site's tagging policy is Tag What You See. For most tags, if you don't see something, it shouldn't be tagged. Sometimes a tag can be deemed too specific (e.g. "forest_green_left_pinky_finger_tip") or too vague ("red") or too generic ("eyes") to be considered useful, and may be removed or aliased away.

deadoon said:
The thread referenced wants to invalidate many contributor tags with no secondary measures in place. Where is the harm of it being searchable?

Because the way they're being used now is in violation of the tagging rules, and there is no other way they can be tagged. Until such time that the rules are changed or amended, that's the state of things. The Artist category is for the person who made the post, i.e. the person who drew the artwork or animated the animation. So if we tag other people there who didn't make the post with Artist tags, it will make it harder to determine who actually made the posts since it might not be the person tagged as the Artist in spite of that being the category's purpose.

deadoon said:
This site has been making less and less sense lately.

These rules are largely the same in the years I've been here, aside from the addition of lore tags with the site revamp. This stuff may just be more apparent now with more animations being posted with custom audio work, and more people not following the rules for who to tag and how, causing more cleanup work, that such cleanup is more visible.

watsit said:
Not all tags are valid. Primarily, the site's tagging policy is Tag What You See. For most tags, if you don't see something, it shouldn't be tagged. Sometimes a tag can be deemed too specific (e.g. "forest_green_left_pinky_finger_tip") or too vague ("red") or too generic ("eyes") to be considered useful, and may be removed or aliased away.

Not even close to the situation I was referencing, in fact the tag has gotten new posts in it and never even got aliased to invalid either. I will not mention what tag it was because apparently there is admin protection on it or the person that wiped it originally and would rather not get on their bad side. If an admin says it's ok I'll post it. This wasn't intended as a callout post, but rather an anecdotal experience I encountered.

watsit said:
Because the way they're being used now is in violation of the tagging rules, and there is no other way they can be tagged. Until such time that the rules are changed or amended, that's the state of things. The Artist category is for the person who made the post, i.e. the person who drew the artwork or animated the animation. So if we tag other people there who didn't make the post with Artist tags, it will make it harder to determine who actually made the posts since it might not be the person tagged as the Artist in spite of that being the category's purpose.

So throw the baby out with the bath water? I asked what harm there is of it being searchable, which is what that thread is about, removing searchability of those tags. No the tags are not perfect, but improvement should be the goal. I made my argument over there, you should read it some time, don't bring it back over here.

deadoon said:
I have come to view tags as "things that people might search for or block"

I wish this was true and that things were tagged with that mindset. Also that tags had some sort of common sense applied to them. One problem I have is that some tags can be so convoluted or weirdly specific that the tags go underutilized rendering them useless as a way of searching or blocking. Not to mention all of the really inconsistent or missing implications.

For example I can add purple_thigh_socks and get only 57 results and it will get a whole mess of implications, but if I put ankle_socks (colored tags do not exist for this) I will get only 62 results and it isn't even implicated to socks. Another example of this would be something like white_tank_top vs white_dress_shirt. There are many more examples of this, including ones not related to clothing, but you get the idea.

For all of these tags, and others like it, there are absolutely a lot more results but most people probably just put [color]_socks or [color]_shirt or whatever and call it a day. Which is where the whole "common sense" thing comes in.

I don't even want to talk about all of the times which the tags are used wrong. That just makes things oh so much worse.

[ incoherent screeching intensifies ]
post #2778680

deadoon said:
So throw the baby out with the bath water?

I'll note the admins haven't acted on that BUR yet. It was only requested by someone trying to clean up the tags in accordance with the site rules for tagging. The admins haven't made a decision for how to handle it yet, so maybe they are waiting for some other option to be put in place first (or maybe they just haven't gotten around to it yet, I have no idea).

deadoon said:
I asked what harm there is of it being searchable, which is what that thread is about, removing searchability of those tags.

Well, I explained how tagging works here and the purpose of that category the tags are being removed from, and why they don't fit anywhere else either with the current rules.

No worries. The threads are noticed by the admins and janitors. And it is talked about. It just takes some time to get to a decision in a group.

watsit said:
I'll note the admins haven't acted on that BUR yet. It was only requested by someone trying to clean up the tags in accordance with the site rules for tagging. The admins haven't made a decision for how to handle it yet, so maybe they are waiting for some other option to be put in place first (or maybe they just haven't gotten around to it yet, I have no idea).

I've voiced my opinion on the matter in the previous discussions of that kind, and I didn't want to just repeat myself.

I would like to see a new tag category for "contributors": voice actors, 3d modellers, and so on.
Unfortunately, adding a new category is not a simple process, and it requires modifications to the site code.
We are exploring our options. There isn't an ETA on any of this, which is why we haven't said anything.

watsit said:
I'll note the admins haven't acted on that BUR yet. It was only requested by someone trying to clean up the tags in accordance with the site rules for tagging. The admins haven't made a decision for how to handle it yet, so maybe they are waiting for some other option to be put in place first (or maybe they just haven't gotten around to it yet, I have no idea).

Well, I explained how tagging works here and the purpose of that category the tags are being removed from, and why they don't fit anywhere else either with the current rules.

I am honestly confused by your actions. You are stating and supporting mutually incompatible things at the same time.

They serve a dual purpose: they allow you to both find the content that you like, and to filter out stuff that you dislike.

That is what you are trying to uphold correct as in the core of what a tag is supposed to represent? To me I interpret that as the search and blacklist functionality.

Because the way they're being used now is in violation of the tagging rules, and there is no other way they can be tagged. Until such time that the rules are changed or amended, that's the state of things. The Artist category is for the person who made the post, i.e. the person who drew the artwork or animated the animation. So if we tag other people there who didn't make the post with Artist tags, it will make it harder to determine who actually made the posts since it might not be the person tagged as the Artist in spite of that being the category's purpose.

Then this, your vote, and your initial statements in that thread are contradictory to that goal. If there is a contradiction in which you cannot follow both, follow the core intent, not the lesser details, that is my take on the situation.

Which is more important the search/blacklist functionality for finding and filtering posts, or the list of tags on the side of a post being cleanly organized?(Honestly, I'd love everyone's response to this)

dubsthefox said:
No worries. The threads are noticed by the admins and janitors. And it is talked about. It just takes some time to get to a decision in a group.

It kind of looks bad to me when a thread requesting that artists should have their searchability invalidated due to being in an edge case of the rules or their intent is still up for debate.

bitwolfy said:
I've voiced my opinion on the matter in the previous discussions of that kind, and I didn't want to just repeat myself.

I would like to see a new tag category for "contributors": voice actors, 3d modellers, and so on.
Unfortunately, adding a new category is not a simple process, and it requires modifications to the site code.
We are exploring our options. There isn't an ETA on any of this, which is why we haven't said anything.

Repeating it in threads where it is relevant can be useful, as watsit loves do demonstrate here by bringing in arguments despite trying to keep the threads separate and not responding to me over there.

Since there is a technical hurdle to overcome to create a proper solution, why not amend the flexible parts in the meantime? Rules are little more than a text document, and tags can be aliased and implicated, so a temporary framework until the big change would solve those issues for the long term.

deadoon said:
I am honestly confused by your actions. You are stating and supporting mutually incompatible things at the same time.

That is what you are trying to uphold correct as in the core of what a tag is supposed to represent? To me I interpret that as the search and blacklist functionality.
Then this, your vote, and your initial statements in that thread are contradictory to that goal. If there is a contradiction in which you cannot follow both, follow the core intent, not the lesser details, that is my take on the situation.

These are the rules. Artist tags are only for the creator of a post (the visual artist), and other tags are supposed to be based on visual elements of the image (what you can see). Then within that framework, the tags are there help you find the visual elements you want to find, or to avoid the visual elements you want to avoid.

You asked what the purpose or role of tags are on e6. This is the answer as dictated by the site itself. Not sure what else you want me to say about it.

deadoon said:
Which is more important the search/blacklist functionality for finding and filtering posts, or the list of tags on the side of a post being cleanly organized?(Honestly, I'd love everyone's response to this)

If the tag list isn't cleanly organized, it makes it that much more difficult to ensure a post is tagged correctly, which in turn affects peoples' ability to search and blacklist. That's the way I see it. If there's a mess of tags, it can be difficult to notice certain tags are missing, or that some tags are incorrectly used. We have and continue to lose useful tags because they were hard to spot being used incorrectly, due to being often buried in a messy tag list, so those tags are now flooded with irrelevant posts (far too many to practically clean out) making it impossible to easily search for or blacklist what it was intended for. Overtagging and messy tag lists can very much be a problem that negatively affects the search/blacklist functionality.

deadoon said:
Repeating it in threads where it is relevant can be useful, as watsit loves do demonstrate here by bringing in arguments despite trying to keep the threads separate and not responding to me over there.

Let's not pretend you created this thread with any intention other than continuing the argument you were already having in the other one.

watsit said:
These are the rules. Artist tags are only for the creator of a post (the visual artist), and other tags are supposed to be based on visual elements of the image (what you can see). Then within that framework, the tags are there help you find the visual elements you want to find, or to avoid the visual elements you want to avoid.

You asked what the purpose or role of tags are on e6. This is the answer as dictated by the site itself. Not sure what else you want me to say about it.

If the tag list isn't cleanly organized, it makes it that much more difficult to ensure a post is tagged correctly, which in turn affects peoples' ability to search and blacklist. That's the way I see it. If there's a mess of tags, it can be difficult to notice certain tags are missing, or that some tags are incorrectly used. We have and continue to lose useful tags because they were hard to spot being used incorrectly, due to being often buried in a messy tag list, so those tags are now flooded with irrelevant posts (far too many to practically clean out) making it impossible to easily search for or blacklist what it was intended for. Overtagging and messy tag lists can very much be a problem that negatively affects the search/blacklist functionality.

You talked right past what I said and didn't provide an explanation for your support of contradictory states beyond "it's the rules", yet to follow those rules breaks another. If you wish to uphold all rules in place while you also support breaking one rule to fulfill another you are just a hypocrite. That is what I am getting from you out of this. It is frankly infuriating to discuss this with you because of how little awareness you have of that concept.

If tagging a post "correctly" according to subsidiary rules goes against the intent of things in the post being able to be searched and filtered, doesn't that mean that it isn't tagged correctly since that is the role of tags? That's the contradiction you seem to support both sides of simultaneously which is what is confusing to me.

Yes tag lists can be a bit messy due to intricate tagging of relevant components, or tags can be ambiguous leading to them being misused, but that isn't the argument here, and is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. That is why disambiguation tags exist obviously, and could be used more often.

However having those tags, even sound related tags still has value for searching and blacklisting, so your argument of overtagging harming search/blacklist functionality by putting contributors in the artist or some other section tag for now doesn't hold water. It is almost like you are looking for an excuse to remove their searchability, finding some rules to support that stance it even if it contradicts with others.
Edit:

wat8548 said:
Let's not pretend you created this thread with any intention other than continuing the argument you were already having in the other one.

I was wanting to keep sound related discussions over there, and keep this as a generalized concept of tags themselves, but apparently that is a minority view. I still do not understand how people are allowed to just remove a general tag from all posts that had it and was relevant, and it not be considered vandalism, but apparently that question is going to be lost to the derailing by people who want to bring in discussions from other threads and don't want to respond to me there.

deadoon said:
If tagging a post "correctly" according to subsidiary rules goes against the intent of things in the post being able to be searched and filtered

It doesn't. Searching and filtering works quite well, and is in fact one of the biggest strengths this site has over others. Just because there are certain limits to it that you don't like doesn't mean the tags aren't still fulfilling their purpose.

deadoon said:
Yes tag lists can be a bit messy due to intricate tagging of relevant components, or tags can be ambiguous leading to them being misused, but that isn't the argument here, and is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Isn't it? You asked

deadoon said:
Which is more important the search/blacklist functionality for finding and filtering posts, or the list of tags on the side of a post being cleanly organized?

And I responded that a messy tag list (one that isn't cleanly organized) leads to poorer search/blacklist functionality, and giving an example of overtagging. So a cleanly organized list of tags is important for the search/blacklist functionality to do its job, which is an answer to your question, is it not?

deadoon said:
However having those tags, even sound related tags still has value for searching and blacklisting, so your argument of overtagging harming search/blacklist functionality by putting contributors in the artist or some other section tag for now doesn't hold water.

Well, I gave an example of too many tags causing problems. Simply saying "sound related tags still has value for searching and blacklisting" doesn't negate the very real problem of a messy tag list harming searching/blacklisting functionality that I brought up. If you want to say my argument doesn't hold water, you'll need to explain what it is about my argument that's faulty, rather than just asserting that your idea is fine.

watsit said:
It doesn't. Searching and filtering works quite well, and is in fact one of the biggest strengths this site has over others. Just because there are certain limits to it that you don't like doesn't mean the tags aren't still fulfilling their purpose.

, doesn't that mean that it isn't tagged correctly since that is the role of tags?

Read. You are advocating tagging incorrectly according to the intent of tags because of the specifics of some subsidiary rules and are refusing to read the whole argument.

watsit said:
Isn't it? You asked
And I responded that a messy tag list (one that isn't cleanly organized) leads to poorer search/blacklist functionality, and giving an example of overtagging. So a cleanly organized list of tags is important for the search/blacklist functionality to do its job, which is an answer to your question, is it not?

I asked if which of two things are more important

search/blacklist functionality for finding and filtering posts,

and

the list of tags on the side of a post being cleanly organized?

You still have not answered the question. Is it more important for the user to be able to search or block content, or the tag list to be pretty. Because what you advocate is the latter at the expense of the former. You can have organization that isn't "clean", heck my suggestions which you overlooked on that subject you have yet to respond to. I am advocating search functionality even if the mechanism isn't clean, through a "dirty" method akin to having (artist) on tags. Those aren't clean, but they work and differentiate characters, artists and their characters.
So answer the question instead of sidestepping it.

watsit said:
Well, I gave an example of too many tags causing problems. Simply saying "sound related tags still has value for searching and blacklisting" doesn't negate the very real problem of a messy tag list harming searching/blacklisting functionality that I brought up. If you want to say my argument doesn't hold water, you'll need to explain what it is about my argument that's faulty, rather than just asserting that your idea is fine.

You were arguing under a false assumption. How does having things tagged in a post harm search and blacklist functionality when those things are in the post?

Frankly at this point I feel you are trolling by ignoring half of what I say and refusing to respond to it.

deadoon said:
Which is more important the search/blacklist functionality for finding and filtering posts, or the list of tags on the side of a post being cleanly organized?

post #1908541

I think you're looking at this the wrong way. Is there any particular reason that search and blacklist functionality cannot be maintained and still have a concise and organized tag list? This goes back to what I said earlier about convoluted or weirdly specific tags, and the lack of common sense tagging. There are a huge number of tags which do nothing but add unnecessary bloat to the tagging system. All of that extra bloat not only makes tagging a huge pain, but also makes searching and blacklisting harder to do especially when the tags are used wrong.

shitposter said:
post #1908541

I think you're looking at this the wrong way. Is there any particular reason that search and blacklist functionality cannot be maintained and still have a concise and organized tag list? This goes back to what I said earlier about convoluted or weirdly specific tags, and the lack of common sense tagging. There are a huge number of tags which do nothing but add unnecessary bloat to the tagging system. All of that extra bloat not only makes tagging a huge pain, but also makes searching and blacklisting harder to do especially when the tags are used wrong.

As of right now technical limitations according to admin above, new categories for tags to be sorted into is not part of the design of the website, so significant work would need to be done to implement them. That kind of implies categories were probably built as they are now without consideration for more since no situation came up initially where more categories were needed, so speed of development was prioritized rather than extensibility. Focusing on everything all at once leads to "development hell", and prioritizing extensibility when no situation utilizes it would seem quite wasteful.

Creating unambiguous tags to solve issues could be a challenge. As has been demonstrated with past and continuing consequences of gender tagging rather than just accepting edge cases which could go either way. Or the now reverting species based tagging which was just plain weird and leads to more confusion than benefits. Having a simple cheat sheet and style guide for definitions of clothing, fur patterns, and the current accepted colors(yes there is drama and inconsistency involving those as well) on the site could help with tagging those. Ironically the only way to learn how to tag properly on this site it to read through massive quantities of materials, some of which is contradictory, and then try and do your best to follow them before you inevitably piss someone off. That or just do your own thing making up new tags and removing others from all posts without discussion and still come out ok. That apparently is an option too.

deadoon said:
Read. You are advocating tagging incorrectly according to the intent of tags because of the specifics of some subsidiary rules and are refusing to read the whole argument.

I asked if which of two things are more important and
You still have not answered the question. Is it more important for the user to be able to search or block content, or the tag list to be pretty. Because what you advocate is the latter at the expense of the former. You can have organization that isn't "clean", heck my suggestions which you overlooked on that subject you have yet to respond to. I am advocating search functionality even if the mechanism isn't clean, through a "dirty" method akin to having (artist) on tags. Those aren't clean, but they work and differentiate characters, artists and their characters.
So answer the question instead of sidestepping it.
You were arguing under a false assumption. How does having things tagged in a post harm search and blacklist functionality when those things are in the post?

Frankly at this point I feel you are trolling by ignoring half of what I say and refusing to respond to it.

Half of what you say is such antagonistic garbage I'm surprised admins or janitors put up with any of it.

purelyforablacklist said:
Half of what you say is such antagonistic garbage I'm surprised admins or janitors put up with any of it.

Thank you for informing me that requesting others to detangle their contradictory statements and calling them out on their own actions is "antagonistic garbage". I should be more polite and allow people to actively misrepresent what I am saying through removal of half of it because they are being professional in their wording.

In case you missed it that was sarcasm.

deadoon said:
Read. You are advocating tagging incorrectly according to the intent of tags because of the specifics of some subsidiary rules and are refusing to read the whole argument.

No I am not advocating for tagging incorrectly. Please read the page linked in the first reply:

Unlike many other art sites, e621 has a tagging policy called "Tag What You See", or TWYS for short.
With very few exceptions, TWYS states that all tags on a post must be directly evident from within the post itself.

i.e. at it's core, the tags are there to indicate what is visible in the image.

The "allow you to both find the content that you like, and to filter out stuff that you dislike" is not the absolute ultimate mission statement of tags that takes priority over all things. That if a tag can ever help someone to accomplish this in any circumstance at any time, that it must be a valid thing to tag regardless of any other stated rule. That is how you're coming across in interpreting this, and that's looking at it too rigidly. The TWYS policy and that purpose of helping find or filter out content work in tandem, the TWYS policy or other rules of tagging don't fall by the wayside because a tag may help someone find or filter out content. Plenty of tags have been invalidated and aliased away despite people saying it would help them, because they were deemed to violate TWYS or cause other tagging problems. This is not what I may or may not be advocating for, it's the way the site operates.

deadoon said:
I asked if which of two things are more important and
You still have not answered the question. Is it more important for the user to be able to search or block content, or the tag list to be pretty.

So a cleanly organized list of tags is important for the search/blacklist functionality to do its job

I'm not sure what more you want me to say.

deadoon said:
You were arguing under a false assumption. How does having things tagged in a post harm search and blacklist functionality when those things are in the post?

Having too many things tagged in a post can harm search and blacklist functionality because it becomes harder to guarantee and verify those things are in the post. It increases the chances of tags being used (or not used) incorrectly, causing incorrect search results and posts getting missed by or inadvertently caught in peoples' blacklists. That is how it can harm search and blacklist functionality.

At this point, I'm done. I've answered your questions, multiple times, showing you what the site says on these matters, what the site has done in these circumstances before, and giving my own anecdotes in regards to issues that can arise with tagging, and it's apparent you just don't like the answers.

the best, simplest explanation I can think of is that a tag is "a word or phrase describing an aspect of a piece of art or media, which helps and encourages users to narrow their searches down to ease the trouble of finding things they might be more interested in"

shitposter said:
I wish this was true and that things were tagged with that mindset. Also that tags had some sort of common sense applied to them. One problem I have is that some tags can be so convoluted or weirdly specific that the tags go underutilized rendering them useless as a way of searching or blocking. Not to mention all of the really inconsistent or missing implications.

For example I can add purple_thigh_socks and get only 57 results and it will get a whole mess of implications, but if I put ankle_socks (colored tags do not exist for this) I will get only 62 results and it isn't even implicated to socks. Another example of this would be something like white_tank_top vs white_dress_shirt. There are many more examples of this, including ones not related to clothing, but you get the idea.

For all of these tags, and others like it, there are absolutely a lot more results but most people probably just put [color]_socks or [color]_shirt or whatever and call it a day. Which is where the whole "common sense" thing comes in.

I don't even want to talk about all of the times which the tags are used wrong. That just makes things oh so much worse.

[ incoherent screeching intensifies ]
post #2778680

I use specific color tags to help me track down characters... I would absolutely not call them useless... Maybe they don't serve a use to you, but to me they do.

The only reason implications are inconsistent is because they have to be manually approved and there's a huge backlog.

desertaisha said:
I use specific color tags to help me track down characters... I would absolutely not call them useless... Maybe they don't serve a use to you, but to me they do.

The only reason implications are inconsistent is because they have to be manually approved and there's a huge backlog.

It was just an example. Personally I feel it really depends on which color tags you're talking about. I have no problem with the base level color tags, such as white_socks, as they can be applied universal across different types of that tag. Tracking something down would probably be easier with white_socks + [type]_socks than by using white_[type]_socks simply on the grounds that base level tags are far more likely to be used and because so many of them don't have those types of tags or proper implications set up.

Creating and implementing higher level tags, such as white_[type]_socks, will just add to the backlog of things. It just ends up feeling like another relatively useless tag on a tag list that can already get pretty messy.