Topic: are comics an exception to TWYS?

Posted under Tag/Wiki Projects and Questions

Would a comic pose an exception to TWYS (specifically regarding character gender), since the expectation is that a user will read the other pages?

Example:
Page 1 - ambiguous_gender skirt
Page 2 - male penis skirt skirt_lift

In Page 2, the character's gender is visibly obvious.

However, in Page 1, the character's apparent gender should be tagged as female according strictly to TWYS, ambiguous_gender would still fit the TWYS guidelines without contradicting Page 2, but tags that would be in present beyond Page 1 would not be applicable in Page 1 despite knowing the character's gender the very next page.

From the wiki page for girly:

...Never use the girly tag for ambiguous_gender, female, herm, or gynomorph characters.

Rant about gender tagging technicality

I understand that it would be outside information, but TWYS leaves a lot of room for ambiguity and can be highly subjective as long there's no genitals visible. One case that is quite common: many rating:safe images could be tagged as ambiguous gender, as a male character without evidence of having a penis could be tagged as andromorph, thus ambiguous_gender could be applicable. Despite that, even when male characters do not appear specifically masculine and could even just be female, they are tagged as male anyways instead of ambiguous_gender. Similar arguments for gynomorph characters, when evidence of their genitals (ie. a bulge) is not present, they should be tagged as female. And the same for herm, they should be tagged as female in the same circumstances, and gynomorph when their female sex organs aren't visible.

Regarding the above, there are numerous examples of either approach to gender tagging in both comics and standalone posts.

And unless it says elsewhere, I am under the impression that gender tags are strictly TWYS and not making exception for established characters (which can have vary in gender anyways)

DISCLAIMER: Tags are just reflection of what's visible in an image, not the label of character's actual gender.

Regarding ambiguous_gender specifically:
1. It makes sense and has use cases
2. It is a very broad tag that should be used instead of specific genders (and this is hand-waved in countless posts).
3. Gender lore tags are meant to alleviate this whole fiasco, but those are also not consistently used.

Given the current state of gender tagging:
Is it justifiable to tag a character's gender on page 1 of a comic if it's visibly obvious in page 2 and is obvious in most pages onwards from that point?
Or is this something that is a major problem that needs correction in the post's tags on the site rather than in the rules?

I usually tag posts in a comic individually, leading to a whole lot of ambiguous_gender (especially for ferals).

That said, it's not too big of a deal if a more specific gender is used, though not correct.

So they aren't a exception, but that particular violation of TWYS doesn't usually cause major issues.

scth said:
I usually tag posts in a comic individually, leading to a whole lot of ambiguous_gender (especially for ferals).

That said, it's not too big of a deal if a more specific gender is used, though not correct.

So they aren't a exception, but that particular violation of TWYS doesn't usually cause major issues.

This, yes. Tags are always for individual images with zero outside info, even for comics.

werideatdawn said:
This, yes. Tags are always for individual images with zero outside info, even for comics.

However, for multiple panels in the same page (or frames of video for that matter), we treat them as one image, apparently. i.e. If one panel has 2 people, another has those 2 and a third, I don't tag duo, but only trio. If it's a crowd in only one panel, tag group, even if there is a [solo focus] for say, a musician performing. This seems to be more a scene thing than a multiple-panels thing, as some comics don't use the traditional hard panels. I guess if in doubt, checking the Wiki articles for the tags isn't a bad idea.

alphamule said:
However, for multiple panels in the same page (or frames of video for that matter), we treat them as one image, apparently. i.e. If one panel has 2 people, another has those 2 and a third, I don't tag duo, but only trio. If it's a crowd in only one panel, tag group, even if there is a [solo focus] for say, a musician performing. This seems to be more a scene thing than a multiple-panels thing, as some comics don't use the traditional hard panels. I guess if in doubt, checking the Wiki articles for the tags isn't a bad idea.

The multiple panels/frames are still in one post, so you have context directly in the content of the post. This is 100% in accordance with TWYS because you you can literally see it. No confusion there.

My question is about any arbitrary comic. If a character's gender is ambiguous for the first half of a comic and the other characters seem to be unaware of their actual gender as well then I might use the ambiguous gender tag in that case, as it fits the context.

Thinking about my specific example though, why not use both male AND ambiguous_gender?

The viewer is unaware, but to a different effect, other character's may also be unaware and the potential surprise of the character's gender being revealed later on could be an integral and objectively taggable part of the comic's appeal. ambiguous_gender would be an emotion/plot device instead of strictly a gender tag.

Thanks to the other replies confirming my assumption that it isn't particularly egregious, Ilmy current standpoint is to include both tags when it is unclear beforehand but the character's gender is confirmed early in a series of images. Feel free to talk me out of this though lol.

magikarp said:
The multiple panels/frames are still in one post, so you have context directly in the content of the post. This is 100% in accordance with TWYS because you you can literally see it. No confusion there.

My question is about any arbitrary comic. If a character's gender is ambiguous for the first half of a comic and the other characters seem to be unaware of their actual gender as well then I might use the ambiguous gender tag in that case, as it fits the context.

Thinking about my specific example though, why not use both male AND ambiguous_gender?

The viewer is unaware, but to a different effect, other character's may also be unaware and the potential surprise of the character's gender being revealed later on could be an integral and objectively taggable part of the comic's appeal. ambiguous_gender would be an emotion/plot device instead of strictly a gender tag.

Thanks to the other replies confirming my assumption that it isn't particularly egregious, Ilmy current standpoint is to include both tags when it is unclear beforehand but the character's gender is confirmed early in a series of images. Feel free to talk me out of this though lol.

There is also lore tags to consider. If the comic author really cares, they can add it to the ambiguous cases, I guess. The reason we don't use other pages in a comic to rely on this is because TWYS is supposed to not only be a visual search, but to prevent trolling. Someone can entirely change the physical gender of a character between drawings, as well.

alphamule said:
There is also lore tags to consider. If the comic author really cares, they can add it to the ambiguous cases, I guess. The reason we don't use other pages in a comic to rely on this is because TWYS is supposed to not only be a visual search, but to prevent trolling. Someone can entirely change the physical gender of a character between drawings, as well.

Fair, re-reading the wording of wiki for lore tags makes ot clear that they would be more applicable in this case. Considering this, I actually like this solution more even if I never use lore tags in my searches (they're not used commonly enough and e621 does not have OR operator grouping like gelbooru does so even if theyre standard it would be rare that I could even use it because it would add further inaccuracy to relational tags (ie. in threesome images it is difficult to specify who is doing what to who before getting so specific that half the posts you want to find are filtered out. Relational tags are great, but they're not used often enough to be useful.))

magikarp said:
Fair, re-reading the wording of wiki for lore tags makes ot clear that they would be more applicable in this case. Considering this, I actually like this solution more even if I never use lore tags in my searches (they're not used commonly enough and e621 does not have OR operator grouping like gelbooru does so even if theyre standard it would be rare that I could even use it because it would add further inaccuracy to relational tags (ie. in threesome images it is difficult to specify who is doing what to who before getting so specific that half the posts you want to find are filtered out. Relational tags are great, but they're not used often enough to be useful.))

Well, they are new(some) tags, so people are still catching up.

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