gender isnt really something you can see?
you can see genitals and breasts and such but you can't actually infer gender from those.

should there even be tags like female and male and cuntboy and such? i feel like you could just use various combinations of genitals and yes or no breasts.

Gender on e621 is specifically for gender appearance. Gender identity, where it differs, is what the lore tags are for.

appelsaus said:
gender isnt really something you can see?
you can see genitals and breasts and such but you can't actually infer gender from those.

should there even be tags like female and male and cuntboy and such? i feel like you could just use various combinations of genitals and yes or no breasts.

You are correct on grammar, it should be refer to it as sex, not gender. The various gender tags simply refer to different sets of genitals and masc/fem body types

fem (usually with boobs)
+ pussy: female
+ dick: gynomorph
+ both: herm

masc (usually without boobs)
+ pussy: andromorph
+ dick: male
+ both: maleherm

there's also ambiguous_gender and null

Canon gender identity can always be expressed via lore tags, the normal gender tags are strictly for what's visible, and also attributes it all to a single chara ter. Picking individual features as individual tags would apply to any character in an image, so if you wanted to find a gynomorph character and searched boobs and dick, then you wouldn't necessairly get them on the same character.

Essentially, the rules are such to improve search and blacklisting. howto:tag_genders might make it clearer why things are tagged the way they are:

Tags are just reflection of what's visible in an image, not the label of character's actual gender. Such information should be written in the post's Description and/or Wiki, as well as the lore tags instead. Non-lore tags are meant to be used for searching and blacklist, Not and Never for describing the character.

There's also tag group:genders if you want to see the many more specific tags, and the lore tags if you want to specify the "accurate" gender rather than the visually apparent one.

appelsaus said:
gender isnt really something you can see?
you can see genitals and breasts and such but you can't actually infer gender from those.

"Gender" is a convenient way to distinguish from the broad category of sex acts (a discussion about "gender tags" will imply very different things than a discussion about "sex tags".) This conflation of gender with sex is also pretty consistent with similar sites (danbooru, Furaffinity, F-List), which use "gender" even when discussing intersex characters who might not have a gender identity distinct from "male" or "female".
Even if this use is, in a prescriptivist sense, incorrect, it's still a way to communicate the minimum necessary information about a character's bodily makeup vs. the act of sex.

appelsaus said:
should there even be tags like female and male and cuntboy and such? i feel like you could just use various combinations of genitals and yes or no breasts.

Under TWYS this doesn't quite work. An image may obscure a character's breasts while showing off their pussy, but that doesn't necessarily guarantee the character is an andromorph. A duo image including breasts, penis, and pussy as tags could also depict any of the following combinations of genders:

• andromorph + gynomorph
• andromorph + herm
• female + gynomorph
• herm + herm
• herm + gynomorph
• male + female
• male + herm
• maleherm + female
• maleherm + gynomorph
• maleherm + herm

A trio could even add combos like andromorph + gynomorph + andromorph.
There also is no broad "masculinity" or "femininity" tag at this time, so even a search based on individual features will include intersexes when the user only wants intrasexes, or vice versa.

... What is this obsession people seem to fuckin' have with making it impossible to search on this site? Seriously, I want you to actually try what you just suggested.

Calling them "gender tags" is a bit of a misnomer but there's not really anything better. "Sex tags" would easily be confused with tags that refer to sexual acts.

Whenever it comes to the topic of gender in general, there is literally no solution that will make everybody happy. But there's many solutions that can make searching tags work functionally.

appelsaus said:
should there even be tags like female and male and cuntboy and such? i feel like you could just use various combinations of genitals and yes or no breasts.

This would work on solo images, but the moment it involves more than one character it won't work. Let's say I want to find an image of two herms having sex - penis pussy breasts sex duo

Oh look, the majority of the results contain a male character and a female character, instead of any herms. Of course you'll find some, but they'll be drowned out.
post #4181838 post #4181752 post #4181692

Or I can search it the reasonable way and search herm/herm duo sex and all of the results are correct.

Overloaded words for $1000, Alex

Yeah, should be stating physical gender, gender identity, etc. explicitely but English happened.

scth said:
Gender on e621 is specifically for gender appearance. Gender identity, where it differs, is what the lore tags are for.

Lore tags are for artists/commissioners/authors/etc., technically. It really is not meant specifically for identity.

BTW: Character bios in Wiki entries allow you to be very specific about things like this. They're kind of the point. You definitely should be using the Wiki more if your characters don't have entries.

Gender is still used as a synonym for sex sometimes.
But even ignoring that

appelsaus said:
should there even be tags like female and male and cuntboy and such? i feel like you could just use various combinations of genitals and yes or no breasts.

What possible benefit would there be to breaking tags down even further like that?
The sex tags are there to make searching & blacklisting easier, not harder.

appelsaus said:
gender isnt really something you can see?
you can see genitals and breasts and such but you can't actually infer gender from those.

should there even be tags like female and male and cuntboy and such? i feel like you could just use various combinations of genitals and yes or no breasts.

Female and male are sexes, not genders. "Gender" has sometimes colloquially applied to "biological sex", usually to avoid confusing the act of sex with the biological trait of sex.
There's absolutely no reason to not have tags that describe a character's visually apparently sex/gender.

topic: 39578

popoto said:
Gender is still used as a synonym for sex sometimes.
But even ignoring that

What possible benefit would there be to breaking tags down even further like that?
The sex tags are there to make searching & blacklisting easier, not harder.

because it feels incredibly insensitive to assume a character is cisgender and there is a clear solution that would make that not happen.

lafcadio said:
"Gender" is a convenient way to distinguish from the broad category of sex acts (a discussion about "gender tags" will imply very different things than a discussion about "sex tags".) This conflation of gender with sex is also pretty consistent with similar sites (danbooru, Furaffinity, F-List), which use "gender" even when discussing intersex characters who might not have a gender identity distinct from "male" or "female".
Even if this use is, in a prescriptivist sense, incorrect, it's still a way to communicate the minimum necessary information about a character's bodily makeup vs. the act of sex.

Under TWYS this doesn't quite work. An image may obscure a character's breasts while showing off their pussy, but that doesn't necessarily guarantee the character is an andromorph. A duo image including breasts, penis, and pussy as tags could also depict any of the following combinations of genders:

• andromorph + gynomorph
• andromorph + herm
• female + gynomorph
• herm + herm
• herm + gynomorph
• male + female
• male + herm
• maleherm + female
• maleherm + gynomorph
• maleherm + herm

A trio could even add combos like andromorph + gynomorph + andromorph.
There also is no broad "masculinity" or "femininity" tag at this time, so even a search based on individual features will include intersexes when the user only wants intrasexes, or vice versa.

then why not have a masc or fem tag? like just change "male" to "masc" and "female" to "fem" and those combinations still work, but now they're based on body type and not assuming that the characters are cisgender.
at the end of the day male and female are inherently NOT sex tags. they are gender tags. we don’t actually need to have those. removing them and replacing them with body type tags would make it feel a lot more inclusive.

thefakenamefive said:
then why not have a masc or fem tag? like just change "male" to "masc" and "female" to "fem" and those combinations still work, but now they're based on body type and not assuming that the characters are cisgender.
at the end of the day male and female are inherently NOT sex tags. they are gender tags. we don’t actually need to have those. removing them and replacing them with body type tags would make it feel a lot more inclusive.

because "masc" and "fem" would be ambiguous tagnames; there are 7 genders, 3 fall under "fem", 3 fall under "masc", one falls under neither. male, andromorph, and maleherm are masculine and fenale, gynomorph, and herm are feminine.

tagging a character's visible gender based on their visibly expressed gender is easiest for everyone. we do need gender tags, they're pretty much the most essential tag group on the entire website.

thefakenamefive said:
topic: 39578
because it feels incredibly insensitive to assume a character is cisgender and there is a clear solution that would make that not happen.

then why not have a masc or fem tag? like just change "male" to "masc" and "female" to "fem" and those combinations still work, but now they're based on body type and not assuming that the characters are cisgender.
at the end of the day male and female are inherently NOT sex tags. they are gender tags. we don’t actually need to have those. removing them and replacing them with body type tags would make it feel a lot more inclusive.

Poe's Law strikes again, I can't tell if this is genuine or a false-flag.

thefakenamefive said:
topic: 39578
because it feels incredibly insensitive to assume a character is cisgender and there is a clear solution that would make that not happen.

then why not have a masc or fem tag? like just change "male" to "masc" and "female" to "fem" and those combinations still work, but now they're based on body type and not assuming that the characters are cisgender.
at the end of the day male and female are inherently NOT sex tags. they are gender tags. we don’t actually need to have those. removing them and replacing them with body type tags would make it feel a lot more inclusive.

Okay, so let's say for the sake of argument that broad "feminine" and "masculine" tags get added. A duo image including penis, pussy, a masculine character, and a feminine character may contain any of the following sets of sex features:

• andromorph + gynomorph
• andromorph + herm
• male + female
• male + herm
• maleherm + female
• maleherm + gynomorph
• maleherm + herm

Surely you see what the issue is here.

lafcadio said:
Okay, so let's say for the sake of argument that broad "feminine" and "masculine" tags get added. A duo image including penis, pussy, a masculine character, and a feminine character may contain any of the following sets of sex features:

• andromorph + gynomorph
• andromorph + herm
• male + female
• male + herm
• maleherm + female
• maleherm + gynomorph
• maleherm + herm

Surely you see what the issue is here.

Like I said, folks who suggest this need to actually try to search using the methods they bring up before they bring them up to see how it turns out. While e6 seems to have a long, long-running tradition of killing "combo" tags, sex/gender (regardless of how you feel about Money/Stoller) on here are synonymous for the purpose of tagging and serve as a useful combination of traits indicative of a singular subject in the artwork itself, as defined in their wiki entries. This is much the same as asking that, say, we no longer use the body type tags such as Feral/Anthro/Taur/Humanoid and instead enforce a combination of quadruped/biped/hexapod with relevant body textures such as fur/skin/scales/exoskeleton and anatomical extras as nullbrachial/bibrachial...

... and I'm going to stop right there because I think I made my point.

As much as tagging is, in the end, a necessary part of this site, there surely must be a better naming system than what has been provided. At the end of the day, blatantly separating the two and forcing the usage of lore tags that often do not get added until well after the fact, if at all, is nothing short of insensitive to those with the gender identities in question. It isn't a matter of it being difficult to search as much as it is adamantly refusing to provide any alternative to ignoring the problem and pretending it doesn't exist. The lore tags are a very weak fixture that only patches half the problem while also creating new ones in that the tags are misunderstood, abused by hateful individuals, or outright ignored or missed when adding tags. If nothing else, consideration should be made to at least try to alter this system to be friendlier to those who do not fit the rigid binary system that "male" and "female" define, and in the end, exclude. I've spent a very long time adding thousands of trans lore tags onto posts only to see some of them removed by people who do not understand what they mean, and at this point I just want some sort of good thing going for us on this platform, even if it's only slightly better than excluding us from "female" and throwing us in the strangely formal and unsettling "gynomorph" instead (same with male and andromorph). Just please consider a change in name at least.

thedragonrider said:
As much as tagging is, in the end, a necessary part of this site, there surely must be a better naming system than what has been provided. At the end of the day, blatantly separating the two and forcing the usage of lore tags that often do not get added until well after the fact, if at all, is nothing short of insensitive to those with the gender identities in question. It isn't a matter of it being difficult to search as much as it is adamantly refusing to provide any alternative to ignoring the problem and pretending it doesn't exist. The lore tags are a very weak fixture that only patches half the problem while also creating new ones in that the tags are misunderstood, abused by hateful individuals, or outright ignored or missed when adding tags. If nothing else, consideration should be made to at least try to alter this system to be friendlier to those who do not fit the rigid binary system that "male" and "female" define, and in the end, exclude. I've spent a very long time adding thousands of trans lore tags onto posts only to see some of them removed by people who do not understand what they mean, and at this point I just want some sort of good thing going for us on this platform, even if it's only slightly better than excluding us from "female" and throwing us in the strangely formal and unsettling "gynomorph" instead (same with male and andromorph). Just please consider a change in name at least.

If you think someone is repeatedly adding or removing lore tags for invalid reasons (or with no edit reason), then file a ticket on the post or user’s profile.

Andromorph and gynomorph used to be called cuntboy and dickgirl, respectively, so I don’t know why some people are asking for another rename.

I've kind of wondered for a while if naming the tags male_with_pussy and female_with_penis or something like that would help cut down on some of the controversy

cloudpie said:
I've kind of wondered for a while if naming the tags male_with_pussy and female_with_penis or something like that would help cut down on some of the controversy

probably not.

personally, I really kinda like that we pushed gynomorph and andromorph into the lexicon to replace what we had before. I know that it sounds a bit ridiculous, since this is 99% smut we're talking about, but it's just nice to have single-word nouns that aren't quite so outwardly objectifying used for characters with these body types. seeing the words slowly spread outward to at least the rest of the furry community has been pretty cool.

...also male_with_pussy and female_with_penis would kinda conflict with the definition of herm and maleherm.

What if we had a tag included all masculine body types (male, andromorph, maleherm) and one for all feminine body types (female, gynomorph, herm)? That way we can have tags that include trans and intersex characters along with cis characters while also still having the more specific body type tags?

cyclone said:
What if we had a tag included all masculine body types (male, andromorph, maleherm) and one for all feminine body types (female, gynomorph, herm)? That way we can have tags that include trans and intersex characters along with cis characters while also still having the more specific body type tags?

So if someone wanted to specifically look for a maleherm in a non-solo post, how would that work?

cyclone said:
What if we had a tag included all masculine body types (male, andromorph, maleherm) and one for all feminine body types (female, gynomorph, herm)? That way we can have tags that include trans and intersex characters along with cis characters while also still having the more specific body type tags?

And what of the amazons and the femboys?

strikerman said:
So if someone wanted to specifically look for a maleherm in a non-solo post, how would that work?

I don't think that they're saying to get rid of the existing gender tags but to add catchalls for m, a, mh and f, g, h.

honestly, it would be kinda useful to be able to condense references to just a single <masc> tag in place of "male, andromorph, or maleherm" or "male bodied" for stuff like the girly wiki and have a single coherent definition for a user to read.

votp said:
And what of the amazons and the femboys?

Amazons would be put in with the women and femboys would be put in with the men.

sipothac said:
I don't think that they're saying to get rid of the existing gender tags but to add catchalls for m, a, mh and f, g, h.

honestly, it would be kinda useful to be able to condense references to just a single <masc> tag in place of "male, andromorph, or maleherm" or "male bodied" for stuff like the girly wiki and have a single coherent definition for a user to read.

Yeah this is what I’m saying, sorry if I didn’t word it clearly enough. I don’t want to get rid of the existing gender tags but just add general ones that are more all encompassing. We already do this with with the “young” tag, with that tag being a general search term for any character that is or appears underage, but we still have the more specific age tags for people who are searching for a specific age range. Another example are the species tags, we have general tags for whole families of species and we have the more specific species tags to go along with those. We can have general gender tags for men and women and have the more specific sex/body type tags for people that are looking for a specific sex/body type.

cyclone said:
Amazons would be put in with the women and femboys would be put in with the men.

Yeah this is what I’m saying, sorry if I didn’t word it clearly enough. I don’t want to get rid of the existing gender tags but just add general ones that are more all encompassing. We already do this with with the “young” tag, with that tag being a general search term for any character that is or appears underage, but we still have the more specific age tags for people who are searching for a specific age range. Another example are the species tags, we have general tags for whole families of species and we have the more specific species tags to go along with those. We can have general gender tags for men and women and have the more specific sex/body type tags for people that are looking for a specific sex/body type.

A femboy is a male, with a feminine body type. We have specific body type tags, such as muscular, girly, overweight, so on, for overall morphology. However, especially given heavily-skewed perception of masculinity versus femininity in the past decade, any attempt to categorise sex based on more subjective appearance qualities such as simply a "masculine" or "feminine" umbrella tag is doomed to misuse and constant bickering. Even in places where wikis are made clear-cut on definitions, people still argue, this also would raise issues with placement. Lore, or regular tag? Does a gynomorph sufficiently masculine to be tagged as male recieve TWYS as masculine or lore as feminine? This is not useful for archival purposes.

You can't call it "how to tag sex" because, well there is also a lot of that on here as well.

votp said:
A femboy is a male, with a feminine body type.

Andromorphs and maleherms can also have feminine body types.

votp said:
However, especially given heavily-skewed perception of masculinity versus femininity in the past decade, any attempt to categorise sex based on more subjective appearance qualities such as simply a "masculine" or "feminine" umbrella tag is doomed to misuse and constant bickering.

I’m not saying we should define sex based off of subjective qualities, I still want to keep all of the sex tags we currently use. What I’m asking for are new tags that encompass multiple sex tags. The largest set on this site does exactly this, as it’s a compilation of “female”, “gynomorph”, and “herm” all together. I want this but as a tag. Admittedly using the terms masculine and feminine body types wasn’t the right wording to use since that’s not the point I’m trying to make. I still want feminine men to be tagged as men (whether they’re m, a, or mh) and masculine women to be tagged as women (whether they’re f, g, or h). Image a single tag that is essentially this search: “~female ~gynomorph ~herm”, that’s what I’m asking for (same with male, andromorph, and maleherm).

votp said:
Even in places where wikis are made clear-cut on definitions, people still argue, this also would raise issues with placement.

That’s an issue with the users not the definitions. Also how would it raise issues with placement?

votp said:
Lore, or regular tag?

Regular tag since this is about physical body types.

votp said:
Does a gynomorph sufficiently masculine to be tagged as male recieve TWYS as masculine or lore as feminine?

I answered this above, also I don’t think a gynomorph should ever be tagged as male regardless of how masculine they are.

votp said:
This is not useful for archival purposes.

How so?

cyclone said:
Andromorphs and maleherms can also have feminine body types.

Not without becoming female and herm respectively. The only difference between andromorphs/maleherms and flat-chested females/herms respectively is whether they have a masculine or feminine body type. Females and herms with breasts, and males without breasts, can have either a feminine or masculine body type while still being tagged female, herm, and male.

cyclone said:
What I’m asking for are new tags that encompass multiple sex tags.

Intersex already makes a mess of the tag list by encompassing multiple sex tags with a ton of implications, which aside from making the tag list difficult to read, makes it equally difficult to clean up in the case of mistags by more than doubling the number of tags to find and remove. I'd not like to see that expanded further with more sex tag groups.

It's tag what you see, not tag what you know. If it looks like a male, it gets tagged as male. Lore tags were created for "what you know". Mainspace tags are for visual data. The purpose of this site and it's tagging system is to create a visually-searchable archive with visual tags. A gynomorph sufficiently masculine to no longer register as a gynomorph gets tagged as male, with the lore tag version of gynomorph as applicable. You say this is about physical body types, yet in the same post say that it is not? I am confused here.

watsit said:
Not without becoming female and herm respectively. The only difference between andromorphs/maleherms and flat-chested females/herms respectively is whether they have a masculine or feminine body type. Females and herms with breasts, and males without breasts, can have either a feminine or masculine body type while still being tagged female, herm, and male.

there are edge cases where a character can be considered both girly and andromorph, see post #1929892 which has both tags locked.

in my opinion, if it's possible to tag characters as with no visible/hinted genitals as girly male and flat_chested female, then I don't see why there couldn't be cases where, after their genitals are revealed to be a pussy and penis, respectively, that those two hypothetical characters could be tagged girly andromorph and flat_chested gynomorph.

votp said:
…A gynomorph sufficiently masculine to no longer register as a gynomorph gets tagged as male, with the lore tag version of gynomorph as applicable. You say this is about physical body types, yet in the same post say that it is not? I am confused here.

Where did I say it’s not about physical body types? If a character has both breasts and a penis they should be tagged as gynomorph. How masculine they are shouldn’t effect that. We don’t tag feminine males as female or gynomorphs nor do we tag masculine females as male or adromorphs, so why would we do the same for intersex characters? From what I’ve seen if a gyno gets tagged as male with the gyno lore tag it’s because they don’t have visible breasts, not because they’re masculine. I’d want these tags to be general tags so that we can apply lore tags if the character identifies as something different than their physical sex.

watsit said:
Intersex already makes a mess of the tag list by encompassing multiple sex tags with a ton of implications, which aside from making the tag list difficult to read, makes it equally difficult to clean up in the case of mistags by more than doubling the number of tags to find and remove. I'd not like to see that expanded further with more sex tag groups.

Fair enough but ultimately what I want is to make this site and the tagging system more welcoming to to trans and gender nonconforming users, so I want to ask, do you have any suggestions for how to do this?

cyclone said:
Where did I say it’s not about physical body types? If a character has both breasts and a penis they should be tagged as gynomorph. How masculine they are shouldn’t effect that. We don’t tag feminine males as female or gynomorphs nor do we tag masculine females as male or adromorphs, so why would we do the same for intersex characters? From what I’ve seen if a gyno gets tagged as male with the gyno lore tag it’s because they don’t have visible breasts, not because they’re masculine. I’d want these tags to be general tags so that we can apply lore tags if the character identifies as something different than their physical sex.

Fair enough but ultimately what I want is to make this site and the tagging system more welcoming to to trans and gender nonconforming users, so I want to ask, do you have any suggestions for how to do this?

Sufficiently masculine implies the lack of breasts. A woman does not magically stop being a woman for being flatchested. However, for this site's purposes a flatchested masculine gynomorph is, visually, not possible to distinguish from a male and is tagged as male. This site's purpose is not to be "welcoming", it is to archive art. What you want is what the lore tags do. The normal tags are for purely visual data, the lore tags are for "actual" data. A pre-op trans character would be tagged as their birth sex if that is what they looked like, with the correct gender tag (as well as transgender) in lore. This is how the system works.

votp said:
Sufficiently masculine implies the lack of breasts. A woman does not magically stop being a woman for being flatchested. However, for this site's purposes a flatchested masculine gynomorph is, visually, not possible to distinguish from a male and is tagged as male. This site's purpose is not to be "welcoming", it is to archive art. What you want is what the lore tags do. The normal tags are for purely visual data, the lore tags are for "actual" data. A pre-op trans character would be tagged as their birth sex if that is what they looked like, with the correct gender tag (as well as transgender) in lore. This is how the system works.

When I read “sufficiently masculine” I didn’t interpret that as meaning lack of breasts. I have looked at some example of this and I realize there are some flaws with what I proposed. I still believe that the gender tags could use some kind of improvement though I’m not sure how to do that now. One last thing I would like to add though is part of the reason I want to make this site more welcoming to trans people is because there are artists that are DNP because of their disagreements with how gender is tagged. While I acknowledge that there’s no perfect solution that all of them would be happy with I would still like for these artists to allow their work back on here. If the point of this site is to archive art then shouldn’t we do everything we can to be welcoming to the artists?

cyclone said:
When I read “sufficiently masculine” I didn’t interpret that as meaning lack of breasts. I have looked at some example of this and I realize there are some flaws with what I proposed. I still believe that the gender tags could use some kind of improvement though I’m not sure how to do that now. One last thing I would like to add though is part of the reason I want to make this site more welcoming to trans people is because there are artists that are DNP because of their disagreements with how gender is tagged. While I acknowledge that there’s no perfect solution that all of them would be happy with I would still like for these artists to allow their work back on here. If the point of this site is to archive art then shouldn’t we do everything we can to be welcoming to the artists?

Those artists are why the lore tags were created in the first place. If they do not find it sufficient, that is their decision.

To tack onto this discussion for a moment, I'm a little confused and worried about potentially running afoul of the TWYS principle as I noticed that a post of my character had the girls and male tags removed and intersec added. I changed it back without thinking at first, but realised that the way it's laid out seems to imply my character should have the 'intersex' tag merely for having what a bit of a shape in the breasts just for being fat.

I'd like to think that there is a degree to which a slightly not-so-flat chest that is proportional to the rest of the fat on a character is acceptable 'male' as far is the tag is concerned, but I guess I'd like to clarify.

fudanshibimyou said:
To tack onto this discussion for a moment, I'm a little confused and worried about potentially running afoul of the TWYS principle as I noticed that a post of my character had the girls and male tags removed and intersec added. I changed it back without thinking at first, but realised that the way it's laid out seems to imply my character should have the 'intersex' tag merely for having what a bit of a shape in the breasts just for being fat.

I'd like to think that there is a degree to which a slightly not-so-flat chest that is proportional to the rest of the fat on a character is acceptable 'male' as far is the tag is concerned, but I guess I'd like to clarify.

Honestly, I can't tell what sex your character is supposed to be from a glance. I'd recommend DMing a staff member or self-reporting the post in question and talking directly to a staff member.

fudanshibimyou said:
To tack onto this discussion for a moment, I'm a little confused and worried about potentially running afoul of the TWYS principle as I noticed that a post of my character had the girls and male tags removed and intersec added. I changed it back without thinking at first, but realised that the way it's laid out seems to imply my character should have the 'intersex' tag merely for having what a bit of a shape in the breasts just for being fat.

I'd like to think that there is a degree to which a slightly not-so-flat chest that is proportional to the rest of the fat on a character is acceptable 'male' as far is the tag is concerned, but I guess I'd like to clarify.

Hey, I set up your artist tag not too long ago.

Your character is hard to describe. I'll admit, the clothing they find themselves in has biased my brain into thinking this is an intersex character. If that's not the case, it's going to be murky and case by case.

fudanshibimyou said:
To tack onto this discussion for a moment, I'm a little confused and worried about potentially running afoul of the TWYS principle as I noticed that a post of my character had the girls and male tags removed and intersec added. I changed it back without thinking at first, but realised that the way it's laid out seems to imply my character should have the 'intersex' tag merely for having what a bit of a shape in the breasts just for being fat.

I'd like to think that there is a degree to which a slightly not-so-flat chest that is proportional to the rest of the fat on a character is acceptable 'male' as far is the tag is concerned, but I guess I'd like to clarify.

Does moobs even apply ? It seems that feminine breasts and masculine breasts (even large) look nothing alike on most posts I see them on. Like, it's usually pretty damn obvious if a character is intended to be appear gynomorphic instead of a male with (non-functional, but still large) breasts.

That character doesn't look particularly any more feminine in the chest than say, post #4097606.

votp said:
Honestly, I can't tell what sex your character is supposed to be from a glance. I'd recommend DMing a staff member or self-reporting the post in question and talking directly to a staff member.

rainbow_dash said:
Hey, I set up your artist tag not too long ago.

Your character is hard to describe. I'll admit, the clothing they find themselves in has biased my brain into thinking this is an intersex character. If that's not the case, it's going to be murky and case by case.

These reactions are honestly surprising to me, but I guess that might speak to my familiarity with the difference in the appearance of hormone-based breast growth vs just fat-based growth hahaha

If the original tags were to include both girly and moobs, would that not apply as well as a TWYS? I think the main issue here is that not everyone sees the same thing as one way or the other, and what are clearly not female-coded breasts to some people might be so to someone else? So I guess the question is who gets the final say if there is contention?

alphamule said:
Does moobs even apply ? It seems that feminine breasts and masculine breasts (even large) look nothing alike on most posts I see them on. Like, it's usually pretty damn obvious if a character is intended to be appear gynomorphic instead of a male with (non-functional, but still large) breasts.

That character doesn't look particularly any more feminine in the chest than say, post #4097606.

That's what I thought as well! Hahaha

I thought that it was pretty obvious that the chest size most artists drew him with was reasonably sized and shaped to be seen as just moobs considering his weight.

Add that with the prevalence of cross-dressing and femboys, I really didn't think twice about it but it looks like from the replies above, that not everyone thinks the same. (u_u)

fudanshibimyou said:
These reactions are honestly surprising to me, but I guess that might speak to my familiarity with the difference in the appearance of hormone-based breast growth vs just fat-based growth hahaha

If the original tags were to include both girly and moobs, would that not apply as well as a TWYS? I think the main issue here is that not everyone sees the same thing as one way or the other, and what are clearly not female-coded breasts to some people might be so to someone else? So I guess the question is who gets the final say if there is contention?

That's what I thought as well! Hahaha

I thought that it was pretty obvious that the chest size most artists drew him with was reasonably sized and shaped to be seen as just moobs considering his weight.

Add that with the prevalence of cross-dressing and femboys, I really didn't think twice about it but it looks like from the replies above, that not everyone thinks the same. (u_u)

I guess the real difference is if you reasonably would expect to get milk from the nipples? :shrugs: Who knows? That logic leads to a funny kind of orange and blue moralityintersection where you have to have multiple tests, and they sometimes overlap or are slightly but not quite 100% aligned. i.e. Not all big breasts are female/herm/gynomorph, but may actually be male as well.

lafcadio said:
Under TWYS this doesn't quite work. An image may obscure a character's breasts while showing off their pussy, but that doesn't necessarily guarantee the character is an andromorph.

How does this apply to ftm_crossgender characters and all they do to make them crossgender is add a dick, especially ones who's on model doesn't have breasts. To me in that situation the characters should be ftg_crossgender because just adding a dick to a character shouldn't make a character male

Examples of FTM crossgenders where the chest is obscured
post #4000070 post #3794730 post #3767868 post #3997703 post #4257657 post #3655330 post #3601440 post #3795468 post #3620186 post #2474725 post #4085024

Examples of FTM crossgenders where the chest is visible but on model they have a flat chest
post #3581679 post #1248883 post #3132933 post #4254329 post #4207965 post #4180424 post #4063378 post #4057489 post #3993912 post #1443674

Whichever way the language goes, it needs to be useful. It needs to be consistent. Everyone needs to be able to understand writing from long ago, not only from now.
I have opinions about where the language should go, but I hope everyone agrees that it should be consistent: whether as tags or in casual conversation. yes?