Change the tagging system. This issue (I really don't think I need to elaborate) and just about any of the other problems people have with tagging would be easily avoided if the site put the responsibility for tagging entirely on the poster with a way to request tags be added or removed if they're inaccurate. There are countless posts complaining about certain tags like those relating to gender, theme and lore because the tagging system is horrendous. Tag what you see not only completely undermines any possible nuance in regards to sexuality and gender but also means that subjective tags like "horror" and "humor" are next to useless. And all of these issues could be fixed with a different tagging system. If rule34 has a plethora of trans tags (despite having a similar system as this site) there's no reason why we only have "visibly trans" obviously trans bodies are nearly impossible to identify but if the poster(typically the artist) is responsible for tagging having tags relevant to concepts that aren't visable in the art would avoid most of the tagging conflict. Would it require work on the part of the mods to create the new system? Yes. Should a better a system have been used since day 1? Also yes. Hindsight and all that but come on it's a bad idea to tag only what you can see on a site filled with art representing complex kinks. I read through the entirety of the last forum talking about the downright offensive and exclusive language on the site (despite countless members of the community being trans) and yet not one person realized that all the difficulties surrounding the topic are the result of this objectively ineffective system? I don't care that it would be difficult and time consuming. What's difficult is having to use language that makes myself and many other trans people deeply uncomfortable simply because we want to see porn centering around our bodies and ones that look similar. Especially when the site is using language implying that trans bodies are inherently intersex and vise vera. Those are two very different (if sometimes intersecting experiences) that shouldn't be lumped together. At least dickgirl and cuntboy describes our bodies without implying there's no difference between myself and someone who is actually intersex. I'm not saying I necessarily approve of those terms but they were unintentionally more mindful than what we have now. So why has no one even publicly suggested this obvious situation? If it's a question of time and effort give me a few months to learn how to do it and the access and I'll happily do all the labor myself. I would genuinely learn to how code from scratch to fix this issue so if none of you are willing, let someone who is. Like almost every problem regarding intersectionality the answer is to change the system instead of using the current system as an excuse for why meaningful change can't happen.

we have lore tags, including trans_(lore), trans_man_(lore), and trans_woman_(lore), that are tagged based on artist intention. these tags can be added to any post containing any character that was intended by the artist to be trans. (whether they actually were trans in their original source material or not)

EDIT: also note that, while the artist will always have the last say on what the lore tags should be, you don't actually need to have a hard statement on every single piece to add lore tags to a post. if there's enough context clues to infer what the intention of a post is than the tags can fairly safely be added, or if you 100% know that a character deserves one it can also be added.

Are there are any specific posts where you feel that existing tags like visibly trans, trans (lore), etc. are inadequate?

if the site put the responsibility for tagging entirely on the poster with a way to request tags be added or removed if they're inaccurate.

The uploader in most circumstances has nothing to do with the image or its characters, the vast majority of pieces here were uploaded by some random that isn't the artist, character owner, commissioner, copyright holder, etc

Would it require work on the part of the mods to create the new system? Yes.

This is exactly one of the reasons why we have tagging that anyone that contriubute to. We don't have the manpower to manually verify tags on every post out there, we already barely have the manpower to handle posts and tickets.

I'm just going to leave this here so this is a little bit easier to read:

lyrasavageaf said:
Change the tagging system.

This issue (I really don't think I need to elaborate) and just about any of the other problems people have with tagging would be easily avoided if the site put the responsibility for tagging entirely on the poster with a way to request tags be added or removed if they're inaccurate. There are countless posts complaining about certain tags like those relating to gender, theme and lore because the tagging system is horrendous. Tag what you see not only completely undermines any possible nuance in regards to sexuality and gender but also means that subjective tags like "horror" and "humor" are next to useless.

And all of these issues could be fixed with a different tagging system. If rule34 has a plethora of trans tags (despite having a similar system as this site) there's no reason why we only have "visibly trans" obviously trans bodies are nearly impossible to identify but if the poster(typically the artist) is responsible for tagging having tags relevant to concepts that aren't visable in the art would avoid most of the tagging conflict. Would it require work on the part of the mods to create the new system? Yes. Should a better a system have been used since day 1? Also yes. Hindsight and all that but come on it's a bad idea to tag only what you can see on a site filled with art representing complex kinks.

I read through the entirety of the last forum talking about the downright offensive and exclusive language on the site (despite countless members of the community being trans) and yet not one person realized that all the difficulties surrounding the topic are the result of this objectively ineffective system? I don't care that it would be difficult and time consuming.

What's difficult is having to use language that makes myself and many other trans people deeply uncomfortable simply because we want to see porn centering around our bodies and ones that look similar. Especially when the site is using language implying that trans bodies are inherently intersex and vise vera. Those are two very different (if sometimes intersecting experiences) that shouldn't be lumped together. At least dickgirl and cuntboy describes our bodies without implying there's no difference between myself and someone who is actually intersex. I'm not saying I necessarily approve of those terms but they were unintentionally more mindful than what we have now.

So why has no one even publicly suggested this obvious situation? If it's a question of time and effort give me a few months to learn how to do it and the access and I'll happily do all the labor myself. I would genuinely learn to how code from scratch to fix this issue so if none of you are willing, let someone who is.

Like almost every problem regarding intersectionality the answer is to change the system instead of using the current system as an excuse for why meaningful change can't happen.

We... do have what you're asking for though? i think? visibly_trans for visibly trans bodies, and trans_man_(lore)/trans_woman_(lore)/nonbinary_(lore) for any trans characters, visibly so or not. I'm not sure what the issue is?

Besides the intersex tag, I agree that should ideally be renamed someday as it doesn't match the real-world usage of the term and could be offensive for that reason. But that's a separate issue

TWYS applies here, no? Otherwise use *_(lore) tags

hjfduitloxtrds said:
TWYS applies here, no? Otherwise use *_(lore) tags

hjfduitloxtrds said:
TWYS applies here, no? Otherwise use *_(lore) tags

Twys is a bad system.

lyrasavageaf said:
Twys is a bad system.

Storming in here proclaiming it's a bad system and saying you have all the answers (which seem to largely consist of putting more work on us staff members) is also not great
We know TWYS isn't the best, but it's the best we currently have. If you have anything better that isn't:

• A pipe dream that we can't actually implement
• Doesn't put an exorbitant amount of work onto staff members
• Doesn't require significant development (and thus review) time
• Isn't any more complicated than our current system
• Doesn't require fundamental changes to how users search

We'll be happy to hear it.

Users searching for art don't care about the character's identity, they care about what they're seeing. That's what our tagging caters to. This is listed on How To: Tag Genders.

• male - penis, no breasts
• female - pussy, breasts
• gynomorph - penis, breasts
• andromorph - pussy, no breasts
• herm - penis, pussy, breasts
• maleherm - penis, pussy, no breasts

The average user doesn't expect to find a character with breasts and/or a pussy when they search male. That's behavior that can't be changed, and attempting to upend the system doesn't help that. They are effectively being used as combination tags of the above.

If it helps you feel better, these "labels" are purely functional, they're named as such to facilitate functionality. We can't use vague masculine or feminine labels because male-presenting and female-presenting characters can be both. We can't allow users to tag their characters as they see fit for the aforementioned reason, search expectations. While I wish we had a bit more leniency on ambiguous characters, I quite like our system. I find what I expect with searches due to our tagging policies. Anyone wanting to represent their character's identity can add lore tags, as was mentioned by another user. We have one for each typical "label" we use for tagging, as well as trans specific lore tags.

• trans (lore)
• trans male (lore)
• trans woman (lore)
• male (lore)
• female (lore)
• intersex (lore)
• gynomorph (lore)
• andromorph (lore)
• herm (lore)
• maleherm (lore)

We use the words we have for intersex due to earlier members of the site deciding the terms we used to use were offensive. We also don't fit intersex into any typical definition you'll find, our definition is strictly for characters that don't fit into male or female. Nothing outside of that. It's an umbrella term for gynomorph, andromorph, herm, and maleherm. It very likely exists for searching and/or blacklisting. Where the term came from is anyone's guess, but we don't really have a better word for it. We also can't just get rid of it.

lyrasavageaf said:
Twys is a bad system.

If it's so bad, then make a real case for replacing it.

lafcadio said:
Are there are any specific posts where you feel that existing tags like visibly trans, trans (lore), etc. are inadequate?

This is exactly one of the reasons why we have tagging that anyone that contriubute to. We don't have the manpower to manually verify tags on every post out there, we already barely have the manpower to handle posts and tickets.
[/quote]
So use a report system. Have users report posts with improper tagging. But TWYS is overly simplistic system that results in tagging for non visible accepts of piece to either go untagged or mistagges, ie gender and orientation. Just like the closed thread y'all are incredibly dismissive about this criticism. There's several problems with the tagging that are the direct result of this mediocre tagging system. TWYS doesn't even work when you get countless posts being mistagged. So use a report system, a poster constantly does a poor job tagging? Remove posting privileges. I'm not saying it's easy because it wouldn't be but it's a very obvious solution to a problem that a lot of people, than and now pretend is too difficult to solve. Is it really that much to ask that when I to see porn of bodies like mine I'm not constantly reminded that my existence is seen as fetish by huge amount of people layered with lazy ass idea of using intersex. Why isn't that a lore tag? Using an incredibly complex medical condition as a catch all for girls with dicks and guys with pussies is ridiculous. Not saying the tag shouldn't exist or absolutely should but the way it's used is insensitive to both groups of people and no reason other than laziness. At very least different tags need to be used for intersex bodies, trans bodies and bodies with mixed genials for the sake of a fetish. But that suggestion is always followed up the TWYS excuse hence the post

lyrasavageaf said:
Just like the closed thread y'all are incredibly dismissive about this criticism.

Because people want searchable aspects of the post.

donovan_dmc said:
Storming in here proclaiming it's a bad system and saying you have all the answers (which seem to largely consist of putting more work on us staff members) is also not great
We know TWYS isn't the best, but it's the best we currently have. If you have anything better that isn't:

• A pipe dream that we can't actually implement
• Doesn't put an exorbitant amount of work onto staff members
• Doesn't require significant development (and thus review) time
• Isn't any more complicated than our current system
• Doesn't require fundamental changes to how users search

We'll be happy to hear it.

Users searching for art don't care about the character's identity, they care about what they're seeing. That's what our tagging caters to. This is listed on How To: Tag Genders.

• male - penis, no breasts
• female - pussy, breasts
• gynomorph - penis, breasts
• andromorph - pussy, no breasts
• herm - penis, pussy, breasts
• maleherm - penis, pussy, no breasts

The average user doesn't expect to find a character with breasts and/or a pussy when they search male. That's behavior that can't be changed, and attempting to upend the system doesn't help that. They are effectively being used as combination tags of the above.

If it helps you feel better, these "labels" are purely functional, they're named as such to facilitate functionality. We can't use vague masculine or feminine labels because male-presenting and female-presenting characters can be both. We can't allow users to tag their characters as they see fit for the aforementioned reason, search expectations. While I wish we had a bit more leniency on ambiguous characters, I quite like our system. I find what I expect with searches due to our tagging policies. Anyone wanting to represent their character's identity can add lore tags, as was mentioned by another user. We have one for each typical "label" we use for tagging, as well as trans specific lore tags.

• trans (lore)
• trans male (lore)
• trans woman (lore)
• male (lore)
• female (lore)
• intersex (lore)
• gynomorph (lore)
• andromorph (lore)
• herm (lore)
• maleherm (lore)

We use the words we have for intersex due to earlier members of the site deciding the terms we used to use were offensive. We also don't fit intersex into any typical definition you'll find, our definition is strictly for characters that don't fit into male or female. Nothing outside of that. It's an umbrella term for gynomorph, andromorph, herm, and maleherm. It very likely exists for searching and/or blacklisting. Where the term came from is anyone's guess, but we don't really have a better word for it. We also can't just get rid of it.

The term comes the medical condition of intersex... considering it's been in use long before the site existed. At the very least intersex needs to stop being used as anything but a lore tag. Shit I'll volunteer my time for free to help deal with this like I already s said. Because unlike the apparent attitudes of mods on this and the previous thread I give a fuck.

lafcadio said:
If it's so bad, then make a real case for replacing it.

That is the entirety of my post

lafcadio said:
If it's so bad, then make a real case for replacing it.

That is the entirety of my post

lafcadio said:
If it's so bad, then make a real case for replacing it.

That is the entirety of my post

lyrasavageaf said:
The term comes the medical condition of intersex... considering it's been in use long before the site existed. At the very least intersex needs to stop being used as anything but a lore tag. Shit I'll volunteer my time for free to help deal with this like I already s said. Because unlike the apparent attitudes of mods on this and the previous thread I give a fuck.

I think the real problem is that language around these subjects are changing and while I understand it takes an insanely long time to get the site to update a tag it's important to keep up with the language considering it effects a huge amount of the user base people should be prioritized over the amount of time it takes for information to be uploaded to a server.

lyrasavageaf said:
So use a report system. Have users report posts with improper tagging.

You're missing the point. We already have reports for bad tagging. The problem stems from only a certain number of people being able to edit tags. We'd be inundated with reports due to the sheer amount of uploaders that do not fully tag their images.

I'd also like to point out again:

donovan_dmc said:
The uploader in most circumstances has nothing to do with the image or its characters, the vast majority of pieces here were uploaded by some random that isn't the artist, character owner, commissioner, copyright holder, etc

Leaving tagging to only uploaders would be a demonstrably bad idea.

lyrasavageaf said:
The term comes the medical condition of intersex... considering it's been in use long before the site existed.

As I said, we don't care for actual definitions. The tag has its own definition here, which I already lined out.

Seeing as they deleted their account for some reason, I'm just going to lock this ranting & rambling mess of a topic.

7 year old account with absolutely zero activity until today comes storming into the forums to throw a fit about something they didn't even try to understand in the first place, then deletes their account, all within the span of a few hours.

just another day on e621