The bulk update request #7489 is active.

remove alias whale (616) -> cetacean (15229)
remove implication baleen_whale (168) -> cetacean (15229)
remove implication sperm_whale (274) -> physeteroid (257)
remove implication physeteroid (257) -> toothed_whale (13582)

Reason: It's come up that having whale as a tag separate from cetacean would be a good idea. Colloquially, a whale is any of the larger cetaceans. Translated into tags, this means whale equals cetacean -dolphin -porpoise. This might not seem to be much of a tag problem until you realize that cetaceans are split into two groups: baleen whales and toothed whales, and that dolphins and porpoises are technically toothed whales, strange as it might seem to some. Getting rid of the baleen_whale and toothed_whale tags would not be a good idea, akin to like getting rid of mongoose and hyena because feline is good enough for all feliforms.

But there is value in having whale as a tag, but we're going to have to be a bit finer about our implications. So, this is the proposal:

• We keep the current baleen_whale and toothed_whale implication trees.
• We unalias whale from cetacean.
• We have whale imply cetacean.
• We have baleen_whale imply whale. Because all baleen whales count as whales.
• We go through and imply all the non-dolphin, non-porpoise toothed whales directly to whale. Toothed_whale would not imply whale itself.
• It turns out that's just sperm_whale and beaked_whale.
• Individual members of archaeoceti will imply whale as appropriate.
• That's just basilosaurid it turns out.
• Fictional whales can also be implied to whale as deemed appropriate.

There's a few dolphin species that have "whale" in their names, but don't actually count as a whale (pilot whales, the pygmy killer whale, the false killer whale, the orca (AKA killer whale), and melon-headed whale). These aren't being whaled since they're clearly dolphins despite the names. I was a bit fuzzy on including narwhals and belugas, but they're actually closely related to porpoises, and the site implies them to dolphin already. I suppose by leaving the current toothed whale implications, we would still be calling them whales even though they wouldn't count as a whale.

The archaeoceti are a bit trickier, since some wouldn't count as dolphins, porpoises, or whales. I've chosen to leave most of them alone as they still had functional legs. Because they're the first known fully aquatic cetaceans and also are big – the smallest known member was about 8 feet 3-4 inches (2.51-2.55 meters) while the biggest species rival the blue whale in length – I'm having basilosaurid imply whale.

I'm just going to imply sperm_whale directly to toothed_whale and whale, and toss physeteroid as being essentially synonymous with sperm_whale. Technically, there's three species of sperm whales, but while it's possible this might change in the future, the pygmy and dwarf sperm whales aren't currently tagged.

I'll let you Users all fight over which fictional cetaceans count as whales or not.

The follow-up BUR:

imply whale -> cetacean
imply baleen_whale -> whale
imply sperm_whale -> whale
imply sperm_whale -> toothed_whale
imply beaked_whale -> whale
imply basilosaurid -> whale

EDIT: The bulk update request #7489 (forum #400094) has been approved by @Rainbow_Dash.

The bulk update request #7489 (forum #400094) has been approved by @Rainbow_Dash.

The bulk update request #7509 is active.

create implication whale (616) -> cetacean (15229)
create implication baleen_whale (168) -> whale (616)
create implication sperm_whale (274) -> whale (616)
create implication sperm_whale (274) -> toothed_whale (13582)
create implication beaked_whale (5) -> whale (616)
create implication basilosaurid (15) -> whale (616)

Reason: Part two as outlined above. I honestly was surprised at the large number of dolphins out there compared to whales. There really aren't that many whale species, which makes sense as the global ecosystem can't really supports lots of large-sized species.

I'm sticking with just real life species here. If you want to argue whether a fictional species like Wailords ought to imply whale, I'll leave those BURs to you.

EDIT: The bulk update request #7509 (forum #400212) has been approved by @Cinder.

clawstripe said:

I'm sticking with just real life species here. If you want to argue whether a fictional species like Wailords ought to imply whale, I'll leave those BURs to you.

No pokemon imply any real species tag, not even the broader ones like mammal or lagomorph, so wailord most likely won't imply it. Other fictional species probably wouldn't imply whale, but instead cetacean

snpthecat said:
No pokemon imply any real species tag, not even the broader ones like mammal or lagomorph, so wailord most likely won't imply it. Other fictional species probably wouldn't imply whale, but instead cetacean

why did you steal sipothac's face

snpthecat said:
No pokemon imply any real species tag, not even the broader ones like mammal or lagomorph, so wailord most likely won't imply it. Other fictional species probably wouldn't imply whale, but instead cetacean

Why do think I'm not bothering with dealing with them? :p Whether Pokémon species implications need to be tweaked or not is something I don't really want to deal with. The real life species take precedence anyway.

strikerman said:
why did you steal sipothac's face

who's sipothac? They don't seem to be a member

The bulk update request #7509 (forum #400212) has been approved by @Cinder.

The bulk update request #9673 is active.

remove alias whale_humanoid (13) -> cetacean_humanoid (275)
remove implication baleen_whale_humanoid (9) -> cetacean_humanoid (275)
remove implication sperm_whale_humanoid (4) -> cetacean_humanoid (275)

Reason: Following in the footsteps of Clawstripe, making a follow-up BUR for the humanoids.

EDIT: The bulk update request #9673 (forum #424379) has been approved by @spe.

The bulk update request #9673 (forum #424379) has been approved by @spe.

orca?

maryland_p_sevenson said:
orca?

Dolphin. The name "killer whale" is something of a misnomer. When I made the original BUR, I first went through each and every cetacean to see who would count as a whale and who would be a dolphin or porpoise, with special attention to those actually with "whale" in their common name.

There's a few dolphin species that have "whale" in their names, but don't actually count as a whale (pilot whales, the pygmy killer whale, the false killer whale, the orca (AKA killer whale), and melon-headed whale). These aren't being whaled since they're clearly dolphins despite the names. I was a bit fuzzy on including narwhals and belugas, but they're actually closely related to porpoises, and the site implies them to dolphin already. I suppose by leaving the current toothed whale implications, we would still be calling them whales even though they wouldn't count as a whale.

The bulk update request #9687 is active.

create implication whale_humanoid (13) -> cetacean_humanoid (275)
create implication baleen_whale_humanoid (9) -> whale_humanoid (13)
create implication sperm_whale_humanoid (4) -> whale_humanoid (13)
create implication sperm_whale_humanoid (4) -> toothed_whale_humanoid (41)

Reason: Part 2, again following Clawstripe's example from above

EDIT: The bulk update request #9687 (forum #424508) has been approved by @spe.

clawstripe said:
Dolphin. The name "killer whale" is something of a misnomer. When I made the original BUR, I first went through each and every cetacean to see who would count as a whale and who would be a dolphin or porpoise, with special attention to those actually with "whale" in their common name.

I mean, if we're considering "whale" as more of, like, a form factor than an actual species, it feels kinda odd to not include orcas.

I guess I just don't really understand where the lines are drawn here. like, what makes a beaked_whale a whale but the orca, beluga and most of the other toothed_whales not?

The bulk update request #9687 (forum #424508) has been approved by @spe.

maryland_p_sevenson said:
I mean, if we're considering "whale" as more of, like, a form factor than an actual species, it feels kinda odd to not include orcas.

I guess I just don't really understand where the lines are drawn here. like, what makes a beaked_whale a whale but the orca, beluga and most of the other toothed_whales not?

I am also curious about this. What exactly is it that makes belugas and orcas not count as whales? I always would’ve mentally categorized them as whales, barring any scientific explanation for why they aren’t.

spe said:
I am also curious about this. What exactly is it that makes belugas and orcas not count as whales? I always would’ve mentally categorized them as whales, barring any scientific explanation for why they aren’t.

orcas are dolphins and belugas are not whales, porpoises or true dolphins (and are most closely related to the narwhal in the family monodontid)
Though given we tag based on appearance than biological classification, this can be changed if there's value to it

The names are relatively confusing since something can be a toothed whale while not a whale

snpthecat said:
orcas are dolphins and belugas are not whales, porpoises or true dolphins (and are most closely related to the narwhal in the family monodontid)
Though given we tag based on appearance than biological classification, this can be changed if there's value to it

The names are relatively confusing since something can be a toothed whale while not a whale

is this a "koala bears aren't bears" situation?

strikerman said:
is this a "koala bears aren't bears" situation?

well no, because bear (or, more accurately, ursidae) is an actual taxonomic group with defined boundaries. "whale" as far as I can tell is just "a few of the larger cetaceans, regardless of actual taxonomic groupings".

Wikipedia says that monodontidae, the family that includes narwhals and belugas, are considered whales, traditionally.

According to Wikipedia:

Whales are a widely distributed and diverse group of fully aquatic placental marine mammals. As an informal and colloquial grouping, they correspond to large members of the infraorder Cetacea, i.e. all cetaceans apart from dolphins and porpoises. Dolphins and porpoises may be considered whales from a formal, cladistic perspective.

From "Etymology and definitions":

The term "whale" is sometimes used interchangeably with dolphins and porpoises, acting as a synonym for Cetacea. Six species of dolphins have the word "whale" in their name, collectively known as blackfish: the orca or killer whale, the melon-headed whale, the pygmy killer whale, the false killer whale, and the two species of pilot whales, all of which are classified under the family Delphinidae (oceanic dolphins). Each species has a different reason for it, for example, the killer whale was named "Ballena asesina" 'killer whale' by Spanish sailors.

From "Phylogeny":

The whales are part of the largely terrestrial mammalian clade Laurasiatheria. Whales do not form a clade or order; the infraorder Cetacea includes dolphins and porpoises, which are not considered whales in the informal sense.

On e621, toothed_whales is used in a taxonomic sense: the common name for the Odontocetes, cetaceans with teeth in their jaws instead of baleen. Odontocetes includes Delphinoidea (dolphins, porpoises, beluga whales, and narwhals), Lipotoidea (river dolphins), Physeteroidea (sperm whales), and Ziphoidea (beaked whales). Whales is used in the informal sense:

whale = cetacean -dolphin -porpoise -narwhal -beluga

Orcas are the largest species in Delphinidae, the dolphins. Ergo, they aren't whales, even though they are sometimes called "killer whales". Common names aren't always taxonomically accurate. After all, as stated above, some cetaceans are also called blackfish. Does this mean we should also tag them as fish simply because they are marine-dwelling animals with no legs?

Tagging orcas (for example) as whale would make that tag meaningless, because whale was asked for as a way to search cetacean while excluding dolphins and porpoises. Therefore, I had to determine who wasn't either a dolphin or a porpoise (i.e. not Delphinoidea or Lipotoidea) so they can be tagged as whale.

The bulk update request #9722 is pending approval.

remove implication dolphin (13304) -> toothed_whale (13582)
create implication dolphin (13304) -> delphinid (1)
create implication delphinid (1) -> toothed_whale (13582)
remove implication monodontid (430) -> dolphin (13304)
create implication monodontid (430) -> delphinid (1)
remove implication porpoise (41) -> dolphin (13304)
create implication porpoise (41) -> delphinid (1)

Reason: While I was looking through stuff trying to make an argument about orcas I realized there's an actual issue with the dolphin tag regardless of semantic opinions on 'whale'. The current dolphin tag covers the entire clade Delphinida (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delphinida), which includes dolphins and things similar to dolphins; it spans the families Delphinidae (the oceanic dolphins), Iniidae/Lipotidae/Platanistidae/Pontoporidae (river dolphins), Monodontidae (narwhals and belugas), and Phocoenidae (porpoises). Dolphins are a paraphyletic grouping within the clade Delphinida (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolphin); porpoises, narwhals, and belugas are not dolphins. I didn't realize they were tagged as such on here until now.

After this BUR the toothed whale tree would look like this:

• toothed whale
• sperm whale
• beaked whale
• delphinid
• dolphin
• oceanic dolphin
• river dolphin
• monodontid
• porpoise

EDIT: Hmm actually just realized river dolphins are a bit more complicated than I thought, some of them (Platanistidae) actually split off before beaked whales and thus aren't included in the clade Delphinida. We really don't have to be 100% phylogenetically accurate here though tbh.

This is a good phylogenetic tree for reference: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert-Brownell/publication/235613127/figure/fig3/AS:667636379709449@1536188325788/Phylogenetic-relationships-among-the-major-lineages-of-cetaceans-Newly-isolated-and.ppm

Maybe we could just skip the Delphinid step and have the tree look like this?

• toothed whale
• sperm whale
• beaked whale
• dolphin
• oceanic dolphin
• river dolphin
• monodontid
• porpoise

which would pretty much align with common parlance.

clawstripe said:
Orcas are the largest species in Delphinidae, the dolphins. Ergo, they aren't whales, even though they are sometimes called "killer whales". Common names aren't always taxonomically accurate. After all, as stated above, some cetaceans are also called blackfish. Does this mean we should also tag them as fish simply because they are marine-dwelling animals with no legs?

Tagging orcas (for example) as whale would make that tag meaningless, because whale was asked for as a way to search cetacean while excluding dolphins and porpoises. Therefore, I had to determine who wasn't either a dolphin or a porpoise (i.e. not Delphinoidea or Lipotoidea) so they can be tagged as whale.

"whale" isn't a taxon, though, everything inclued/excluded in it is entirely arbitrary, like fox or wolf or scalie or fish or a bunch of other species category tags. and anyway, as I stated in my comment above belugas and narwhals generally _are_ considered whales under the unformal definition.

in any case, I still feel like including all of the "whale"-y cetaceans (i.e. including orcas and monodontids) in whale would make it more useful than not.