The proposal I have in mind is that due to how unambiguous alien forms as a concept are, is a lore tag that specifically describes said abstract creature as abstract_alien_(lore) (or something similar).

The best example of said abstract alien forms is probably from Neon Genesis Evangelion:

• Ramiel
• Leliel
• Armisael

But I'm sure there might be other examples of abstract formed aliens.

The requirement for said tag usage would be that only characters that aren't original characters would be able to qualify as this would help janitor more easily determine if it's an alien character with an abstract form or just an non-living object/thing.

No, the purpose of the lore tags is to serve as an alternative for actual valid tags that do not meet TWYS.

You have already gotten your answer on Discord regarding these creatures.
We don't allow abstract beings since they do not resemble any form of anthropomorphic characters or animals.
You can't just upload a picture of a cardboard box and call it canonically a character, even if it is talking with speech bubbles.

The only way that gets approved if it is part of a furry-centric image/set (i.e., zero_pictured) or be anthropomorphised enough that they resemble a character (e.g., biblically_accurate_angel, animate_inanimate).

thegreatwolfgang said:
No, the purpose of the lore tags is to serve as an alternative for actual valid tags that do not meet TWYS.

Well when it comes to alien as I was informed, it's effectively already a lore tag since aliens aren't always TWYS[1].

thegreatwolfgang said:
You have already gotten your answer on Discord regarding these creatures.

This discord post was an answer to a question about IF you are allowed to post said creature, it had nothing to do with this post which is a suggestion - so I don't see the point of referring to said discord post.

thegreatwolfgang said:
You can't just upload a picture of a cardboard box and call it canonically a character, even if it is talking with speech bubbles

Which is not what I was suggesting either, specifically said tag would only work if said creature is part of an established copyright NOT original characters - because otherwise as you say it would be too ambiguous.

[1]https://discord.com/channels/431908090883997698/460517895420772353/1238156725211893862

rakustrike said:
Well when it comes to alien as I was informed, it's effectively already a lore tag since aliens aren't always TWYS[1].

What @abadbird told you is that alien is being abused as a lore tag.
Alien should only be used when "the creature looks like an alien" by TWYS standards, not for anything canonically alien since that is TWYK.

Even if it is being misused as such, it still does not justify having an abstract_alien_(lore) tag since that is not how the lore tags are used.

This discord post was an answer to a question about IF you are allowed to post said creature, it had nothing to do with this post which is a suggestion - so I don't see the point of referring to said discord post.

And yet, you are suggesting to have a lore tag for said creature or something with a similar form that you are not allowed to post to begin with.

Which is not what I was suggesting either, specifically said tag would only work if said creature is part of an established copyright NOT original characters - because otherwise as you say it would be too ambiguous.

What difference does that make? Having an established copyright makes a character more legitimate than one created as an OC?

If you still want to have it as a lore tag, by all means suggest it on the appropriate thread - topic #23515.

thegreatwolfgang said:
What @abadbird told you is that alien is being abused as a lore tag.
Alien should only be used when "the creature looks like an alien" by TWYS standards, not for anything canonically alien since that is TWYK.

Even if it is being misused as such, it still does not justify having an abstract_alien_(lore) tag since that is not how the lore tags are used.

And yet, you are suggesting to have a lore tag for said creature or something with a similar form that you are not allowed to post to begin with.

What difference does that make? Having an established copyright makes a character more legitimate than one created as an OC?

If you still want to have it as a lore tag, by all means suggest it on the appropriate thread - topic #23515.

Thanks for posting the thread, will try and look into those meta threads in the future for suggestions.

thegreatwolfgang said:
What @abadbird told you is that alien is being abused as a lore tag.
Alien should only be used when "the creature looks like an alien" by TWYS standards, not for anything canonically alien since that is TWYK.

what the fuck does _that_ mean? what's an alien look like? tagging alien by TWYS is literally impossible because there's no such thing as "alien" traits, aliens aren't real, and even if they were there'd be no common ancestors to make them look similar since, you know, they're from different planets. even depictions of different aliens in real life folklore often share no similar traits.

It's completely meaningless. 'Alien' can look like anything, and (at least in my mind) there's no baseline generic alien look. The first aliens that popped to my mind were from the latest science fiction novels that I've read.
And how exactly does one differentiate a generic anthro from something like Peltedverse species?
It's all TWYK.

dba_afish said:
what the fuck does _that_ mean? what's an alien look like? tagging alien by TWYS is literally impossible because there's no such thing as "alien" traits, aliens aren't real, and even if they were there'd be no common ancestors to make them look similar since, you know, they're from different planets. even depictions of different aliens in real life folklore often share no similar traits.

You don't go about blanket tagging Clark_Kent/Superman as being an alien because he is canonically a Kryptonian, do you?
That line is there so that people don't randomly tag alien because it is what the lore says.

If you want to argue about how alien is defined, I think topic #35140 was where the last discussion happened.

What I said in Discord, for context:

alien already is, effectively, a lore tag. It's one of the more problematic species tags lol. Sometimes tagging it goes heavily toward lore, and other times it swings toward intuition. Both of those are kinda bad for standardizing what is and is not that species. At least tagging by intuition is core to TWYS (e.g., "this looks like _____").

And you see! It took the bare minimum of two users responding and disagreeing to demonstrate that it's a problematic tag.

"Heavy lore tagging of alien" is just tagging things with alien if they are aliens in the source material or otherwise according to the source. The Evangelion shape aliens would probably fall under this, but that also goes back to my earlier response to Raku in Discord that I probably would not approve the Evangelion shape aliens because they are hard to even recognize as countable characters (they don't look like lifeforms or lifelike machines). And if a being is not countable with tags, then you pretty much shouldn't tag their species at all, not even with alien.

"Tagging with intuition" is saying "I know what cats look like, I don't know what species that character is, but they look like a cat so I'll tag cat." You're not really certain about the species, so you tag what you see. How that could apply to alien for art is not recognizing a character's species at all and acknowledging that nothing from Earth looks like it either. Thus, the character is an assemblage of alien features.

Also, a person may have a wealth of knowledge for how various franchises and artists have designed aliens which will inform their perception for what aliens might look like. Different people are familiar with different things, causing their collective consciousness to have varying opinions on what aliens might look like; however, even with those differences, many people will also share the same pop culture references for what aliens look like, establishing some shared expectations across people. So unrelated people can still have some of the same perceptions for what aliens look like, even though that information is fiction.

Both ways of recognizing aliens are flawed, and we have limited control over how the userbase at large thinks when they tag.

honestly, I'd be more or less fine saying anything that's alien by lore would be fine to tag as alien*, for the most part. the main problem I see is that the definition for "alien" is in higher fantasy settings it's kind of nebulous, since the main reference point we use, Earth, might not be the reference point they use.

*except for characters who are human by TWYS. a human is a human is a human; I feel like that's a really easy line to draw, at least.

dba_afish said:
honestly, I'd be more or less fine saying anything that's alien by lore would be fine to tag as alien*, for the most part.

*except for characters who are human by TWYS. a human is a human is a human; I feel like that's a really easy line to draw, at least.

Hate to break it to you, but there can be characters who look physically identical to real-world animals while also be canonically considered to be aliens as well.
For example, Frank from Men in Black, who looks physically like a pug, is canonically an alien species called the Remoolian.

thegreatwolfgang said:
Hate to break it to you, but there can be characters who look physically identical to real-world animals while also be canonically considered to be aliens as well.
For example, Frank from Men in Black, who looks physically like a pug, is canonically an alien species called the Remoolian.

yeah, I'm just saying for tagging purposes, characters who are human by TWYS shouldn't be tagged as anything other than human, in any context. I don't really mind anything beyond that being tagged alien by lore, even situations like Frank.

I'm at a point where I'd prefer just having a single alien_(lore) tag that can be tagged on anything that's canonically called (or said by the artist to be) an alien, regardless of what it looks like, and aliasing away alien, alien_humanoid, alien_genitalia, and anything else. The concept of an alien is just way too vague to try to split hairs over it, especially in fictional settings where there's always justification to call any non-Earth being an alien (including clark_kent/superman; he doesn't stop being an alien just because he looks human). Just thinking about D&D or The Elder Scrolls and considering what would or wouldn't classify as an "alien" does my head in, particularly in the case of TES which is filled with unreliable narration, you can't even trust what we're told about interplane(ta)ry beings). I'd personally want it invalidated altogether since it's pointless, it is entirely purely background info that says nothing about the being's appearance, but if there's enough want for it, a lore tag is the only thing that makes sense.

thegreatwolfgang said:
You don't go about blanket tagging Clark_Kent/Superman as being an alien because he is canonically a Kryptonian, do you?
That line is there so that people don't randomly tag alien because it is what the lore says.

It being tagged because that's what the lore says is the only reason to tag it. Putting an added restriction of 'except not human-looking creatures' doesn't mean the rest of its uses aren't still because of what lore says. Even the roswell_greys, as they aren't proven to exist and are urban folklore, are only considered aliens because that's the lore we made for them, not that they actually truly are aliens (IIRC, there has been some thought given to the idea that they could be us from the future).

watsit said:
alien_genitalia

why has this not already been aliased away?