Currently, the virgin tag is a mess because it doesn't follow TWYS, since you can't really see virginity; you can only infer it from dialogue, blood from the vagina, or the appearance of a hymen. And none of these are a guarantee of actual virginity. So I want to turn it into a lore tag instead, to better fit with e621 tagging standard.

Though this also asks the question of how we want to define virginity, as there are multiple ways that can be interpreted, like is someone who has only had oral sex a virgin? There is also the whole anal and vaginal virginity aspect to take into consideration. Furthermore, there is also the time when we would consider someone a virgin. Many of the posts where the tag is applied show the virgin character in the middle of having sex, which isn't very "virginal behavior" and should probably be tagged with defloration instead. This also raises the question if defloration should also be turned into a lore tag.

Any and all thoughts on this are welcome.

+1
Virginity and defloration seem to be relatively popular concepts and they aren't really twys so I welcome their change to the lore category

slyroon said:

Though this also asks the question of how we want to define virginity, as there are multiple ways that can be interpreted, like is someone who has only had oral sex a virgin?

If it's a lore tag, this might not really matter since the artist usually has the final say on it and they'll tag according to their own standard.

There is also the whole anal and vaginal virginity aspect to take into consideration.

Well, i'm not exactly in favour of having [orifice]_virginity and [orifice]_defloration tags for all the orifices

snpthecat said:
+1
Virginity and defloration seem to be relatively popular concepts and they aren't really twys so I welcome their change to the lore category

If it's a lore tag, this might not really matter since the artist usually has the final say on it and they'll tag according to their own standard.

These two ideas seem like they conflict with each other. If different people have different ideas on what constitutes being a virgin, then it would end up untagged on something the artist says isn't a virgin based on some technicality that another person says is a virgin (so they don't see it in a search), along with the opposite, it being tagged on something the artist says is a virgin but another person says isn't, causing it to turn up in their search. Does it count if a character is in the midst of penetration or touching genitals, but neither has had an orgasm yet? Does hot dogging or thigh sex count for the "receiver"? People would search it and not get what they expect, and get what they don't expect, with no way to "fix" it since it's entirely the say-so of the artist. Or someone blacklists it, and still ends up seeing what they consider virginity, and not seeing what they don't consider virginity.

I could also see it getting out of hand, being tagged by default on anything young or child, or on every depiction of any character that canonically hasn't had sex, regardless of what they're doing. A similar issue to parent_(lore) being tagged on every post featuring any character that is canonically a parent, regardless of their offspring being visible.

Defloration can work in TWYS, as there are methods to visualize a character losing their virginity (pictographics, blood, etc), rather than simply being the say-so of the artist or tagger. So I think virgin can/should be invalidated, and defloration used when there's visual indication of a character losing their virginity.

Defloration is definitely TWYS, just with a little bit of inferring.

Sometimes the defloration is shown with an expression, and that might be harder to tag because expressions change with language.

Here we have "popping the cherry"
post #4850774

The tag will need some cleaning, some posts don’t have any visible signs of defloration.

snpthecat said:
If it's a lore tag, this might not really matter since the artist usually has the final say on it and they'll tag according to their own standard.

Well, i'm not exactly in favour of having [orifice]_virginity and [orifice]_defloration tags for all the orifices

Well, sure, lore tags as they are currently used are always by the artist's intentions.
But as I mentioned, people have different interpretations of what virginity even is.
That's why I asked what we would consider virginity to be.
For example, if an artist says it's the first time the character is doing oral, does that mean they are a virgin in that context, or does it only count if it's anal or vaginal?
That's what I meant by the whole anal and vaginal virginity thing. I wasn't going to suggest splitting it up like your examples of "[orifice]_virginity and [orifice]_defloration."

watsit said:

Defloration can work in TWYS, as there are methods to visualize a character losing their virginity (pictographics, blood, etc), rather than simply being the say-so of the artist or tagger. So I think virgin can/should be invalidated, and defloration used when there's visual indication of a character losing their virginity.

While there are more visual clues to a character losing their virginity than a social construct like virginity, skimming through the Defloration tag rarely provides much of a visual indicator.

Also, I'm against the idea of invalidating virgin because that is a common enough trope that I think enough people are going to look for it in the art we have.

dimoretpinel said:
Defloration is definitely TWYS, just with a little bit of inferring.

Sometimes the defloration is shown with an expression, and that might be harder to tag because expressions change with language.

Here we have "popping the cherry"
post #4850774

The tag will need some cleaning, some posts don’t have any visible signs of defloration.

Mostly just the same as my response to Whatsit.

slyroon said:

While there are more visual clues to a character losing their virginity than a social construct like virginity, skimming through the Defloration tag rarely provides much of a visual indicator.

We could have a defloration equivalent of visibly trans if necessary.

slyroon said:
Also, I'm against the idea of invalidating virgin because that is a common enough trope that I think enough people are going to look for it in the art we have.

What do people expect to find with a virgin tag, BTW? You can't "see" virginity, and a virgin lore tag would run into problems like parent_(lore), where it's misused for every single image of a character regardless of context when it's supposed to only be used when the parent is with their child, but what would a virgin be paired with for the tag to be applicable? If it's for images where they lose their virginity, it would be a misnomer (they're not a virgin if they've lost their virginity) and be more inline with defloration, making it largely redundant.

perhaps implied virgin/ity can work to apply the bare visibility of the character's virginity unless the context somewhere states like the other implied tags.