The tag alias #73404 intersex -> altersex is pending approval.

Reason:

(And any associated tags using intersex like intersex/male)

Never used the forum here, so I'm uncertain if this should be an alias request or a more general discussion, but if it's wrong then a mod can just yell at me and I'll repost it the right way.

Anyway, so intersex is just an inaccurate term to describe gyno/andro/herm characters. Intersex refers to people born with sexual characteristics that would not be considered entirely male or female. This can refer to chromosomes and all that, but it usually refers to people with uncommon or ambiguous genitals, like retracted balls or fused labia. Notably, the term isn't applicable to either of the -morphs, 'cause breasts are a secondary sex characteristic. Herms are ambiguously applicable, but having a functional peen and puss just isn't something that happens IRL so eh.

There are other tags where what the word means and what the tag means don't align (ex. feral, anthro), but those tend to be fandom specific and are understood to be a distinct definition from the real word. With intersex in particular though, it's a decently obscure term that many people don't know the actual definition of, so I end up hearing furries use it in the e6 way in general conversation, which is just silly. Maybe I'm making a false inference in saying that furries are picking up the term from e6, but even if they aren't, e6 definitely solidifies terms, and, at least anecdotally, can certainly change what terms people use (the -morph tags for me personally).

My proposed change is "Altersex," which I think has a lot of things going for it. For one, it's, ya know, accurate. It just means "having sex characteristics which are neither wholly male nor female." It was designed specifically (although not exclusively) as a term for fictional characters with unusual setups. Besides that, it sounds quite similar to intersex already and its meaning is pretty apparent from the word itself, even more so than intersex. It is admittedly an obscure word, being a neologism and all, but I think it sounds pretty naturalistic, and it's certainly better than a lot of other queer neologisms.

All this to say, altersex was expressly created to be a better replacement for intersex and really I think the only things standing in it's way are the long-standing use of intersex and its relative obscurity. What're people's thoughts?

I don't like "altersex" as it sounds like "alternate sex", something that is neither male or female (or a mix of them) but wholly alien sexual anatomy, alternative sex characteristics. Intersex is more accurate, being intermediate between male and female sexes, having characteristics of both.

Beyond that, there are many other tags that include intersex in them, which would need to be changed too. A single alias request like this isn't enough.

Even before the conversation on if the name is really that much better this would have to be a huge change. Just aliasing intersex to altersex would not fix every tag and implication that are attached. You’d have to alias every single intersex tag to the new one. And even then I don’t think altersex is going to catch on here in all honesty.

I think renaming itself is not bad idea at all (especially considering that 99% of the characters under the tag are not even intersex, and this term has been pretty widely used as alternative term), but this requires a lot more work than just this suggestion. TBH I think it would have been better idea to just open discussion thread for this rather than just making a suggestion for alias.

An alias would cause a serious problem here, as it would invalidate any characters that genuinely ARE intersex, as relatively uncommon as they may be. Something needs done, but this isn't it.

For reference, last time this came up was topic #45248.

rupikonna said:
I think renaming itself is not bad idea at all (especially considering that 99% of the characters under the tag are not even intersex, and this term has been pretty widely used as alternative term), but this requires a lot more work than just this suggestion. TBH I think it would have been better idea to just open discussion thread for this rather than just making a suggestion for alias.

Ah alright, I wasn't sure about the etiquette around these things

potentialgoat said:
For reference, last time this came up was topic #45248.

Oh neat. I guess it's a good enough idea for someone else to have it. But also that means nothing ever came of it.

lendrimujina said:
An alias would cause a serious problem here, as it would invalidate any characters that genuinely ARE intersex, as relatively uncommon as they may be. Something needs done, but this isn't it.

From my understanding, true intersex characters would fall under the altersex umbrella as well. Either way it's impossible to search for actually intersex characters with the currently existing tags anyway (to my knowledge), so some actual tagging work is needed no matter what

as I've said in the previous thread, there's a few criteria for a word if we were going to make this change:

• it needs to be inclusive of both naturally intersex characters and trans characters
• it needs to be understandable just by reading it
• it needs to exclude ambiguous or null characters
• preferably it needs to have a first letter that's currently unused

intersex already kinda fails the first three of these, with people using it on null and ambiguous characters, and also occasionally using it on m/f posts presumably because they think it has a similar definition to interspecies.

I'd say that altersex has much the same problems, alter- usually means "to change" so it feels like it excludes intersex characters, and it similarly could include ambiguous and null characters in its definition.

to me, the only word that really ticked just about every box was something like extragender.

Altersex sounds more a gender/sex swap thing. If it is treated as "alter" in the prefix sense it is indicative of an original that has been changed, or altered. If it is treated as "alternative" then that it is indicative that there is another incarnation or option available. So really it kind of feels like an even worse term for a catchall for characters or individuals that do not conform fully to one sex or gender.

Then again, whenever I hear "alter" in regards to something, I tend to think of the fate series alter characters, which are variants of characters that are distorted in various ways.

Imo this is something that really ought to change. It's inaccurate (many real-world intersex conditions are not taggable as such under twys, even fantasy intersex conditions like a male with functional ovaries being pregnant are not taggable as intersex since it is a tag about genitals) and actually intersex people have expressed dissatisfaction with the way the term is used to describe characters with mixed genitalia and sexual characteristics. I personally lean towards altersex since it looks and sounds similar enough to be a fairly obvious (for people who are familiar with the 'intersex' tag) replacement.

Mixed-sexual_characteristics addresses most complaints about 'altersex' with the downside of being clunky. It's unlikely that an alternative term that is perfectly clear won't be a clunky, wordy mess that's hard to abbreviate.

I'd still rather we just got rid of the umbrella tag entirely
We've got 40 search tags to play with, is that umbrella tag really helping that much

donovan_dmc said:
I'd still rather we just got rid of the umbrella tag entirely
We've got 40 search tags to play with, is that umbrella tag really helping that much

ehh... that's kind of a good point, but then the question would be "what would we do with it?". I'm not sure invalidation is a good course, but I'm not sure what else we could do.

dba_afish said:
ehh... that's kind of a good point, but then the question would be "what would we do with it?". I'm not sure invalidation is a good course, but I'm not sure what else we could do.

Ideally we should be able to just immediately reuse it for actually intersex characters since it already should not be used on its own, though it'd probably be better as a lore tag

donovan_dmc said:
Ideally we should be able to just immediately reuse it for actually intersex characters since it already should not be used on its own, though it'd probably be better as a lore tag

Any actual intersex characters could be moved to Intersex_(lore), it’s already populated and all

manitka said:
Any actual intersex characters could be moved to Intersex_(lore), it’s already populated and all

It might be better to just nuke the tag then alias it, we can alias the pairing tags to their closest valid tag

donovan_dmc said:
It might be better to just nuke the tag then alias it, we can alias the pairing tags to their closest valid tag

I feel like that'd be a mess.

dba_afish said:
I feel like that'd be a mess.

I'm not really seeing how it would be a mess

As is right now intersex is just an umbrella tag, so we should be able to just nuke it without much thought

Yes some people just tag intersex, but those are either mistags or a tagging project that will never get done

donovan_dmc said:
I'm not really seeing how it would be a mess

As is right now intersex is just an umbrella tag, so we should be able to just nuke it without much thought

Yes some people just tag intersex, but those are either mistags or a tagging project that will never get done

I mean, we have stuff like futa aliased to it and we'd need to figure out what to do with all those. also, just there's more than a few people that use this tag for blacklisting and searching and it'd be a lot to make the transition.

donovan_dmc said:
I'm not really seeing how it would be a mess

As is right now intersex is just an umbrella tag, so we should be able to just nuke it without much thought

Yes some people just tag intersex, but those are either mistags or a tagging project that will never get done

One issue is the intersex pairing tags are the primary; subcategory pairings are lacking and sometimes even completely absent. Intersex is an umbrella, but it's treated as a full gender in ways the specific categories aren't.

No, nothing needs to be done. And we should not remove it as it's heavily used for blacklisting.

Altersex is a made up term. I've already explained before in previous threads that any character with 'altersex' traits is literally intersex by definition.

Previous threads were just about the characters not being 'true intersex' because the characters are 'the other' and 'not like them' (paraphrasing). You might not realize it, but it's just a phobia in disguise.

Saying a character with a cock and pussy isn't intersex is just false. Here are some actual definitions:

"Intersex: In biology, an organism having physical characteristics intermediate between a true male and a true female of its species."
"Intersex: The condition of either having both male and female gonadal tissue in one individual or of having the gonads of one sex and external genitalia that is of the other sex or is ambiguous"

And some non-definition descriptions:

"Intersex is a term used to describe people with sex characteristics that are not typically considered male or female"
"People who are intersex have genitals, chromosomes or reproductive organs that don’t fit into a male/female sex binary."

The intersex tag is perfect as is and needs no changes.

donovan_dmc said:
I'd still rather we just got rid of the umbrella tag entirely
We've got 40 search tags to play with, is that umbrella tag really helping that much

The number of extra tags created and used by duplicating every gynomorph, herm, maleherm, and andromorph tag is pretty ridiculous, especially for x_penetrating_y and similar tags. Having just gynomorph_penetrating_andromorph really bloats the tag list with...

• gynomorph_penetrating_intersex
• intersex_penetrating_andromorph
• intersex_penetrating_intersex
• gynomorph_penetrating
• intersex_penetrating
• andromorph_penetrated
• intersex_penetrated
• andromorph/gynomorph
• intersex/intersex
• gynomorph
• andromorph
• intersex

12 additional tags (andromorph/intersex and gynomorph/intersex are curiously aliased away). In contrast, male_penetrating_female adds:

• male_penetrating
• female_penetrated
• male/female
• male
• female

5 additional tags, less than half as many. And it does seem weird to me to have a masculine-bodied character with a pussy, no penis, no balls, and no breasts, covered by the same sex tag as a feminine-bodied character with a penis, balls, breasts, and no pussy.

kyiiel said:
Altersex is a made up term. I've already explained before in previous threads that any character with 'altersex' traits is literally intersex by definition.

Hate to break it to you but the tags here are full of made up terms. Even the basic tag 'anthro' is nonsense taken at face value since it literally just means 'human'.

Previous threads were just about the characters not being 'true intersex' because the characters are 'the other' and 'not like them' (paraphrasing). You might not realize it, but it's just a phobia in disguise.

Lol. What 'phobia' could it possibly be?

watsit said:

• gynomorph_penetrating_intersex
• intersex_penetrating_andromorph

these honestly shouldn't exist

watsit said:

• gynomorph/intersex
• andromorph/intersex

these don't exist

regsmutt said:
Hate to break it to you but the tags here are full of made up terms. Even the basic tag 'anthro' is nonsense taken at face value since it literally just means 'human'.

everything is a made up term if you really think about it.

dba_afish said:
these don't exist

I just noticed that. Curious that they don't while all the others do.

watsit said:
I just noticed that. Curious that they don't while all the others do.

because Millcore made the x/p/y tags and included those for some reason. the older x/y tags only included the bottom level intersex genders when they're paired.

I agree with Donovan, I don't think this umbrella needs to exist either and would much rather it just went away. It's never, ever supposed to be tagged on its own and I believe it is no longer useful now that we have a 40 tag search limit. However I understand other staff feel very differently about it.
My second-preferred option, if the single umbrella intersex tag must stay, would be to alias intersex to a new term. I think altersex would be fine for this, but am certainly open to other options. Then, ALL compound tags involving intersex, such as male_penetrating_intersex, pregnant_intersex, etc., should simply be removed. I believe they are completely useless tag bloat. I have no way to know for sure, but I strongly, strongly doubt that these compound tags are ever used for searching or blacklisting. This would also solve the abbreviation problem, since intersex would no longer be included in all these compound tags. Intersex could then be used as a lore tag for canonically intersex characters, by the real-world definition.

wandering_spaniel said:
I agree with Donovan, I don't think this umbrella needs to exist either and would much rather it just went away. It's never, ever supposed to be tagged on its own and I believe it is no longer useful now that we have a 40 tag search limit. However I understand other staff feel very differently about it.
My second-preferred option, if the single umbrella intersex tag must stay, would be to alias intersex to a new term. I think altersex would be fine for this, but am certainly open to other options. Then, ALL compound tags involving intersex, such as male_penetrating_intersex, pregnant_intersex, etc., should simply be removed. I believe they are completely useless tag bloat. I have no way to know for sure, but I strongly, strongly doubt that these compound tags are ever used for searching or blacklisting. This would also solve the abbreviation problem, since intersex would no longer be included in all these compound tags. Intersex could then be used as a lore tag for canonically intersex characters, by the real-world definition.

Removing the compound tags with intersex should only be done if they're being removed with all genders, since they largely simply don't exist with the more specific intersex genders. That's what I meant by intersex being treated more like a gender than the specific ones.

regsmutt said:
Hate to break it to you but the tags here are full of made up terms. Even the basic tag 'anthro' is nonsense taken at face value since it literally just means 'human'.

adding to this, anthro is just shorthand for "anthropomorphic animals." while this by its real definition could mean any range of physical and non physical human traits applied to an animal, it is used widely by those familiar with the furry fandom to refer to animals with a two legged human like stance. but I've seen anthro added to posts on here that dont fit the definition like on animal_humanoid posts and honestly, i think the tag needs a simple name change. just keep the word 'anthro' and add to it and you could probably get a better tag.

scth said:
Removing the compound tags with intersex should only be done if they're being removed with all genders, since they largely simply don't exist with the more specific intersex genders. That's what I meant by intersex being treated more like a gender than the specific ones.

do you have any examples of tags that exist for intersex but not any of the specific genders? because I'm not aware of any of those existing, at least not anymore. I think there was a time where we had stuff like muscular_intersex but not muscular_gynomorph but I've not seen any kinds of disparity like that in quite a while.

+1 to getting rid of intersex entirely, its pointless and its existence is actively harmful to good tagging.

dba_afish said:
do you have any examples of tags that exist for intersex but not any of the specific genders? because I'm not aware of any of those existing, at least not anymore. I think there was a time where we had stuff like muscular_intersex but not muscular_gynomorph but I've not seen any kinds of disparity like that in quite a while.

It looks like I somewhat misremembered (I had remembered things like gynomorph/intersex being missing, but that's not an actual issue). I'm still definitely opposed, but not as big a deal as I thought.
Edit: I'll clarify that I mean I'm against removing intersex as a whole, not the compound tags anymore.

I could go either way with renaming intersex to something else. I do think it is probably useful to have some kind of umbrella tag for the non-standard genders simply because it is common for blacklisting and search filtering, and blacklisting or negating one tag from a search is a lot more convenient than doing it with 4 tags. It's not necessarily an essential tag, though, so... eh.

I would really like to get rid of all the intersex combination tags. Stuff like male_penetrating_intersex is useless. The male could be penetrating an andromorph or a gynomorph which are nothing alike. I don't think anyone has ever used those tags for anything, and they bloat the tag list a lot. Even stuff like overweight_intersex seems useless, since someone looking for an overweight gynomorph is probably not interested in overweight andromorphs. And if they are, then they're also probably interested in overweight males and females, in which case they can just search the overweight tag.

I do think that there is some utility for stuff that just. Doesn't really fall neatly into any category, including the current tags under 'intersex'. But also I realize that those kinds of characters are very rare.

spe said:
I would really like to get rid of all the intersex combination tags. Stuff like male_penetrating_intersex is useless. The male could be penetrating an andromorph or a gynomorph which are nothing alike. I don't think anyone has ever used those tags for anything, and they bloat the tag list a lot. Even stuff like overweight_intersex seems useless, since someone looking for an overweight gynomorph is probably not interested in overweight andromorphs. And if they are, then they're also probably interested in overweight males and females, in which case they can just search the overweight tag.

I feel the basic pairing tags (i/f, i/m, i/?, i/i) still have some use and would be worth keeping, but beyond that, yeah. they're just kinda bloat.

spe said:
I would really like to get rid of all the intersex combination tags. Stuff like male_penetrating_intersex is useless. The male could be penetrating an andromorph or a gynomorph which are nothing alike.

I'd argue that andromorph and gynomorph are nothing alike, those two specifically being practically opposite "configurations". The only thing in common is they aren't male, female, or ambiguous. If male_penetrating_intersex is useless because an andromorph or gynomorph being penetrated are nothing alike, wouldn't intersex be equally useless because an andromorph or gynomorph look nothing alike? It seems weird to me to say intersex is useful but not intersex_penetrating_male or any of the others, since any reason that applies to the former applies to the latter too.

If a tag like intersex is useful because it collects specific sexes into a single tag, would other collections not also be useful? There's no tag that covers male, female, and ambiguous_gender together for non-intersex sexes, and no tag that covers male, andromorph, and maleherm together for the "masculine sexes", or a tag that covers female, gynomorph and herm together for the "feminine sexes". If anything, it seems to me that restoring some equivalent to futa would be most useful to have a tag that covers gynomorph and herm compared to others, as many sites don't distinguish between them and many people don't care of a feminine-bodied character with breasts and a penis has a pussy too.

Well, I'm glad this got people talking :)

I do think intersex (or whatever it gets aliased to if it does get changed) is a worthwhile tag, because adding a -intersex to a search is not rare and it'd be a schlep to have to expand that fourfold. I also agree that a lot of its derived terms are pretty useless, as the tag's so massively vague and most people don't want to see all of it in a single search.

As for my choice of altersex as a replacement, I would like to be clear that I didn't just make it up on the spot. The term was coined in the early to mid 2010s (iirc) explicitly as an umbrella category for all the quirky body setups you see in porn art. I've seen it used around, and although there might be some better prefix to use, I figured it was better to choose something with preexisting support than to try and coin a new word on the e621 forums haha.

See topic #45248.

anicebee said:
See topic #45248.

Yeah, redux

Made this in case anyone is downvoting because the issue of implications.

tarrgon said:
Made this in case anyone is downvoting because the issue of implications.

All the existing implications and aliases need to be removed first before they can be aliased.

watsit said:
All the existing implications and aliases need to be removed first before they can be aliased.

Not if they're all made as individual alias requests. Would be tricky, but doable for an admin (so not spamming the forum), and might be easier than making all the BURs separately.
Or it could just be an overview, like how for my giant BURs I'll have a section that shows effect.

tarrgon said:

More complete

alias intersex -> altersex
alias intersex/female -> altersex/female
alias intersex/male -> altersex/male
alias intersex_penetrating -> altersex_penetrating
alias intersex_penetrated -> altersex_penetrated
alias intersex_penetrating_female -> altersex_penetrating_female
alias intersex/intersex -> altersex/altersex
alias muscular_intersex -> muscular_altersex
alias male_penetrating_intersex -> male_penetrating_altersex
alias larger_intersex -> larger_altersex
alias intersex_penetrating_male -> altersex_penetrating_male
alias dominant_intersex -> dominant_altersex
alias intersex_penetrating_intersex -> altersex_penetrating_altersex
alias gynomorph_penetrating_intersex -> gynomorph_penetrating_altersex
alias clothed_intersex -> clothed_altersex
alias nude_intersex -> nude_altersex
alias intersex_penetrating_gynomorph -> altersex_penetrating_gynomorph
alias mature_intersex -> mature_altersex
alias overweight_intersex -> overweight_altersex
alias smaller_intersex -> smaller_altersex
alias submissive_intersex -> submissive_altersex
alias intersex_anthro -> altersex_anthro
alias pregnant_intersex -> pregnant_altersex
alias mostly_nude_intersex -> mostly_nude_altersex
alias curvy_intersex -> curvy_altersex
alias intersex/ambiguous -> altersex/ambiguous
alias intersex_on_bottom -> altersex_on_bottom
alias slightly_chubby_intersex -> slightly_chubby_altersex
alias intersex_on_top -> altersex_on_top
alias older_intersex -> older_altersex
alias athletic_intersex -> athletic_altersex
alias intersex_on_human -> altersex_on_human
alias voluptuous_intersex -> voluptuous_altersex
alias intersex_pred -> altersex_pred
alias wide_hipped_intersex -> wide_hipped_altersex
alias young_intersex -> young_altersex
alias intersex_penetrating_herm -> altersex_penetrating_herm
alias intersex_on_feral -> altersex_on_feral
alias bottomless_intersex -> bottomless_altersex
alias intersex_focus -> altersex_focus
alias intersex_pov -> altersex_pov
alias younger_intersex -> younger_altersex
alias faceless_intersex -> faceless_altersex
alias obese_intersex -> obese_altersex
alias hourglass_figured_intersex -> hourglass_figured_altersex
alias herm_penetrating_intersex -> herm_penetrating_altersex
alias intersex_on_anthro -> altersex_on_anthro
alias intersex_penetrating_andromorph -> altersex_penetrating_andromorph
alias intersex_on_humanoid -> altersex_on_humanoid
alias intersex_penetrating_ambiguous -> altersex_penetrating_ambiguous
alias intersex_humanoid -> altersex_humanoid
alias intersex_penetrating_human -> altersex_penetrating_human
alias female_penetrating_intersex -> female_penetrating_altersex
alias female_rimming_intersex -> female_rimming_altersex
alias intersex_peeing -> altersex_peeing
alias intersex_prey -> altersex_prey
alias topless_intersex -> topless_altersex
alias intersex_taur -> altersex_taur
alias intersex_penetrating_anthro -> altersex_penetrating_anthro
alias intersex_death -> altersex_death
alias adult_intersex -> adult_altersex
alias maleherm_penetrating_intersex -> maleherm_penetrating_altersex
alias intersex_penetrating_maleherm -> altersex_penetrating_maleherm
alias intersex_penetrating_humanoid -> altersex_penetrating_humanoid
alias elderly_intersex -> elderly_altersex
alias intersex_feral -> altersex_feral
alias anthro_penetrating_intersex -> anthro_penetrating_altersex
alias human_penetrating_intersex -> human_penetrating_altersex
alias intersex_human -> altersex_human
alias morbidly_obese_intersex -> morbidly_obese_altersex
alias ambiguous_penetrating_intersex -> ambiguous_penetrating_altersex
alias male_rimming_intersex -> male_rimming_altersex
alias intersex_penetrating_feral -> altersex_penetrating_feral
alias andromorph_penetrating_intersex -> andromorph_penetrating_altersex
alias intersex_rape -> altersex_rape
alias intersex_impregnation -> altersex_impregnation
alias partially_clothed_intersex -> partially_clothed_altersex
alias intersex_on_taur -> altersex_on_taur
alias intersex_rimming_male -> altersex_rimming_male
alias skinny_intersex -> skinny_altersex
alias light-skinned_intersex -> light-skinned_altersex
alias feral_penetrating_intersex -> feral_penetrating_altersex
alias humanoid_penetrating_intersex -> humanoid_penetrating_altersex
alias intersex_rimming_intersex -> altersex_rimming_altersex
alias intersex_raping_female -> altersex_raping_female
alias slim_intersex -> slim_altersex
alias intersex_pussy -> altersex
alias male_dominating_intersex -> male_dominating_altersex
alias male_fingering_intersex -> male_fingering_altersex
alias intersex/herm -> altersex/herm
alias mother_and_intersex_child -> mother_and_altersex_child
alias macro_intersex -> macro_altersex
alias taur_penetrating_intersex -> taur_penetrating_altersex
alias assertive_intersex -> assertive_altersex
alias intersex_raping_male -> altersex_raping_male
alias intersex_urethra -> altersex
alias intersex_transformation -> altersex_transformation
alias intersex_kill_female -> altersex_kill_female
alias intersex_fingering_male -> altersex_fingering_male
alias intersex_rimming_female -> altersex_rimming_female
alias fully_clothed_intersex -> fully_clothed_altersex
alias rimming_intersex -> rimming_altersex
alias intersex_fingering -> altersex_fingering
alias maleherm/intersex -> maleherm/altersex
alias intersex_to_nullo -> altersex_to_nullo
alias intersex_vagina -> altersex
alias intersex/nonbinary -> altersex/nonbinary
alias intersex_raped -> altersex_raped
alias taller_intersex -> taller_altersex
alias chubby_intersex -> chubby_altersex

Made this in case anyone is downvoting because the issue of implications.

what about mti_crossgender, fti_crossgender and the like?

For the record, I do have intersex_penetrating/ed in a couple blacklist lines. It wouldn't be terrible to update them with more specific tags covered by the umbrella, but they're not completely useless bloat in that regard.

Maybe an alternative solution is to have the site hide specific implied umbrella terms from the tag list next to a post unless you're editing it. That way they still exist for searching and blacklisting, but you don't have to look at them. Though I would not at all be surprised if such an idea would be far too costly performance-wise.

dba_afish said:
what about mti_crossgender, fti_crossgender and the like?

These will require a new naming scheme which I'm not sure what would be best, I'll need to have a think about it.

The reason I made that was to show that it is possible to make these large changes, not necessarily to be complete. There's some things in there I haven't checked.