speciesism and racism appear to be used interchangeably, despite the wiki page for speciesism claiming "It shares characteristics of racism however is not to be confused with it since racism involves reference to real world political issues." There is no explanation for what "real-world political issues" entails in this context or precise instructions for when to use racism over speciesism or vice versa. Additionally, the wiki page for speciesism references fantasy racism and xenophobia, but these do not have any wiki pages to provide use instructions. I believe this warrants re-evaluation of these tags.
Topic: The speciesism and racism tags require revision
Posted under Tag/Wiki Projects and Questions
beholding said:
There is no explanation for what "real-world political issues" entails
I believe the wiki means depictions of bigotry targeting real-world human racial groups, as opposed to depictions of bigotry targeting fictional races like elves or cat anthros.
What if we aliased speciesism to fantasy_racism, and implied fantasy_racism to racism? That way you can blacklist real-world racism while leaving fictional stuff intact with racism -fantasy_racism
wandering_spaniel said:
I believe the wiki means depictions of bigotry targeting real-world human racial groups, as opposed to depictions of bigotry targeting fictional races like elves or cat anthros.What if we aliased speciesism to fantasy_racism, and implied fantasy_racism to racism? That way you can blacklist real-world racism while leaving fictional stuff intact with racism -fantasy_racism
speciesism and fantasy_racism seem way too similar to me, yeah they could be merged. although, I'd feel a bit weird implying it to racism, the tag meant for depictions of real-world racism. maybe we could use xenophobia as a blanket tag for both.
The way I see it speciesism is a form of fantasy racism. It's just slightly more specific. A dynamic between mutts and poodles is fantasy racism without speciesism, between dogs and cats would include speciesism.
That said, speciesism could be easily merged into fantasy racism. The main issue would be people who forget furries are fantasy creatures and assume the tag is specific to high-fantasy creatures.
wandering_spaniel said:
I believe the wiki means depictions of bigotry targeting real-world human racial groups, as opposed to depictions of bigotry targeting fictional races like elves or cat anthros.
That's what I would assume, but the tag currently isn't used that way. Also, technically xenophobia against elves and cat anthros would be speciesism and not racism anyway.
maybe we could use xenophobia as a blanket tag for both.
Adding an implication of xenophobia would be a good starting point, I agree.
...Er, how do you post an implication request without making a new topic?
The bulk update request #10072 is pending approval.
create implication racism (273) -> xenophobia (16)
create implication fantasy_racism (15) -> xenophobia (16)
create implication speciesism (268) -> fantasy_racism (15)
Reason: These are all types of xenophobia, and speciesism can only exist in fantasy.
3rd line is redundant, if the burs passes it'll be implied through fantasy racism.
snpthecat said:
3rd line is redundant, if the burs passes it'll be implied through fantasy racism.
Corrected, thank you.
Not super sure about xenophobia. I know it's a real-world term, but it also looks like the inverse to xenophilia which is. Extremely unrelated.
beholding said:
Reason: These are all types of xenophobia, and speciesism can only exist in fantasy.
Eh... I don't think xenophobia would be a right implication target. One is the fear of outsiders/foreigners while racism is the prejudice and discrimination against a race or ethnicity.
Even speciesism is just the prejudice and discrimination against another species, nothing related to "fear of outsiders" at all.
I would see prejudice as a better alternative, but the issue between tagging real-world hate vs. fictional hate remains.
People would blacklist racism and prejudice in the same vein as politics, so I am not sure if fictional conflicts should be included at all.
thegreatwolfgang said:
I would see prejudice as a better alternative, but the issue between tagging real-world hate vs. fictional hate remains.
People would blacklist racism and prejudice in the same vein as politics, so I am not sure if fictional conflicts should be included at all.
I think that it is worth including. People who want to avoid themes of racism can have different tolerances for fantasy racism and obvious metaphors (handled with vatying levels of tact). On top of that, keeping fantasy racism out of the main tag feels like it'd be a losing battle.
Would people prefer an alternate BUR implying these tags to prejudice instead?
And... Now I'm thinking of a word fantism for people that hate fantasy races like DnD elves. To be extra confusing, phantism is a hatred of ghosts.
Seriously, though, talking about definitions, wasn't prejudice literally "pre-judging", or something like that? I'm not sure on the judice part of it.
alphamule said:
Seriously, though, talking about definitions, wasn't prejudice literally "pre-judging", or something like that? I'm not sure on the judice part of it.
Yes. According to the Online Etymology Dictionary, it is "from Latin praeiudicium 'prior judgment, judicial examination before trial; damage, harm,' from prae- 'before' + iudicium 'judgment.'"
I wasn't aware we had a prejudice tag. I agree that is a better choice, because it is an action while xenophobia is an emotional state, and thus easier to tag objectively.
The bulk update request #10087 is pending approval.
create implication racism (273) -> prejudice (31)
create implication fantasy_racism (15) -> racism (273)
create implication speciesism (268) -> fantasy_racism (15)
create implication homophobia (272) -> prejudice (31)
create implication transphobia (94) -> prejudice (31)
create implication sexism (148) -> prejudice (31)
Reason: Alternate version of bulk update request #10072, using prejudice instead of xenophobia. The losing BUR will be retired.
Thing is, prejudice has a lot of meanings that have almost nothing to do with xenophobia or the like. For tagging purposes, it's pretty much a moot point though, since it largely has the same intent/meaning as xenophobia for that.
Reviving this for additional discussion. Current BUR has no downvotes, does anyone want to make a counterargument?
If we canonize prejudice, homophobia and transphobia should imply it as well
Why is fantasy_racism not implying prejudice in that BUR? Depictions of fantasy racism are depicting prejudice. I still personally feel the poodle/husky example is not really worth separating from true speciesism though, would rather alias to fantasy_racism.
I agree with regsmutt as well that fantasy racism is a subset of racism and keeping it out of the main tag would be a losing battle, best to keep tags intuitive by name and require people to read the wiki as little as possible (because most people never will)
wandering_spaniel said:
If we canonize prejudice, homophobia and transphobia should imply it as wellWhy is fantasy_racism not implying prejudice in that BUR? Depictions of fantasy racism are depicting prejudice. I still personally feel the poodle/husky example is not really worth separating from true speciesism though, would rather alias to fantasy_racism.
I agree with regsmutt as well that fantasy racism is a subset of racism and keeping it out of the main tag would be a losing battle, best to keep tags intuitive by name and require people to read the wiki as little as possible (because most people never will)
I would assume it's not implying prejudice because if it's decided that it should imply racism, then it'd be redundant.
...Wait. But then speciesism shouldn't imply it either.
The bur should be
racism -> prejudice
fantasy_racism -> racism
speciesism -> fantasy_racism
Suggestions implemented.
I believe there were some arguments that racism and fantasy_racism should be kept separate for those who just want to blacklist real-world racism, but as the first response in the thread says, blacklisting racism -fantasy_racism accomplishes that, so I see no issue.