Seriously, I didn't even know the site had one. There's no direct link to it in the menu above, you have to hunt for it, and I didn't even know about it until an image I posted got flagged as DNP (which I marked for deletion).

Just saying, might be nice to know about it a little more up-front. :)

FlynnWurm said:
Seriously, I didn't even know the site had one. There's no direct link to it in the menu above, you have to hunt for it, and I didn't even know about it until an image I posted got flagged as DNP (which I marked for deletion).

Just saying, might be nice to know about it a little more up-front. :)

You mean like putting it in the rules, and linking to those rules from the signup page where you get the account required prior to uploading?
And stating that you agree to said rules in order to create that account?

Yeah, we should definitely have that.

A quick reference button would be helpful, that's all. Why not make it easier to check?

Edit: In fact, there's no "Rules" tab at all, not even under Posts.

Hi Flynn, please excuse any sass you may get from other users just for trying to help out the site. I assure you your support is appreciated.

Honestly we need to just slap a link to the DNP list right onto the upload page. I'm not really sure why we haven't done something like that yet.

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll make sure our coder knows about it and we'll see what he thinks.

Glad I could help, Char!

On a side note, the moment I thought about what a giant cock Halite was being, his profile pic made me laugh. :D

Good idea, Flynn.

It might also help to perhaps put the link to the DNP in bold on the uploading page.

We also gotta make it collapsible. List is too long just to copy and paste it on the upload page

Char said:
Hi Flynn, please excuse any sass you may get from other users just for trying to help out the site. I assure you your support is appreciated.

Honestly we need to just slap a link to the DNP list right onto the upload page. I'm not really sure why we haven't done something like that yet.

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll make sure our coder knows about it and we'll see what he thinks.

post #316222

Halite said:
post #316222

So sassy

FlynnWurm said:
Glad I could help, Char!

On a side note, the moment I thought about what a giant cock Halite was being, his profile pic made me laugh. :D

So being a little snarky equates to being a giant cock? I disagree.
And don't be throwing around insults here.

Moon_Moon said:
So sassy

so sassy
much snark

ippiki_ookami said:
And don't be throwing around insults here.

...seriously?

FlynnWurm said:
...seriously?

Yeah, hes serious. Tossing insults at others dont go over well here, and even more so due to the stricter rules.

FlynnWurm said:
...seriously?

"hey, you helped me, so I'm just gonna call you a giant cock."

Well I know I wouldn't try to help you after a greeting like that, so it kinda defeats the purpose of your entire forum post.
So on at least one level, no, you probably shouldn't throw insults at folk.

FlynnWurm said:
Seriously, I didn't even know the site had one. There's no direct link to it in the menu above, you have to hunt for it, and I didn't even know about it until an image I posted got flagged as DNP (which I marked for deletion).

Just saying, might be nice to know about it a little more up-front. :)

I have a related idea:
https://e621.net/forum/show/90301

Only works if people tag the artists on their posts.
If they don't know the artist, the DNP list isn't going to help them, either.
And if they know the artist but don't tag them, they deserve to be kicked in the nads.

Tunguska said:
"hey, you helped me, so I'm just gonna call you a giant cock."

Well I know I wouldn't try to help you after a greeting like that, so it kinda defeats the purpose of your entire forum post.
So on at least one level, no, you probably shouldn't throw insults at folk.

So this...

Halite said:
You mean like putting it in the rules, and linking to those rules from the signup page where you get the account required prior to uploading?
And stating that you agree to said rules in order to create that account?

Yeah, we should definitely have that.

is helping? uh-huh. He deserves being called out for how he's acting.

I think you're all missing the joke because Halite's avatar is a giant cock.

123easy said:
So this...

is helping? uh-huh. He deserves being called out for how he's acting.

Everybody helps in different ways.

123easy said:
So this...

is helping? uh-huh. He deserves being called out for how he's acting.

I was pointing out that the DNP information is clearly listed in the rules of the website that everyone must agree to before creating an account, which is required to upload.
I was using sarcasm to emphasize my point, sarcasm isn't against any rules.
Yet.

Conker said:
Yeah, hes serious. Tossing insults at others dont go over well here, and even more so due to the stricter rules.

Firstly, I had to hunt down the rules (which there is no convenient link to). Secondly, this is the rule I found:

"Don't insult other users, intentionally start drama or otherwise be an obnoxious troll."

Halite gave a useless and obnoxious response to a legitimate suggestion. I would contend that he broke that rule first.

FlynnWurm said:
Firstly, I had to hunt down the rules (which there is no convenient link to). Secondly, this is the rule I found:

"Don't insult other users, intentionally start drama or otherwise be an obnoxious troll."

Halite gave a useless and obnoxious response to a legitimate suggestion. I would contend that he broke that rule first.

I don't see how he broke any rule just for using sarcasm to point out something that is clearly stated when you create an account.

Butterscotch said:
I don't see how he broke any rule just for using sarcasm to point out something that is clearly stated when you create an account.

Okay, let's settle something for the internet generation. Quoting the TOS is stupid. Firstly, we sign a hundred of those a year. Second, it may have been months or years since we first read those rules.

Rules only work if they're clearly posted so that people can actually find them, remember them, and thus follow them. Quoting rules that noone can remember and are hard to find is just pointless.

FlynnWurm said:
Firstly, I had to hunt down the rules (which there is no convenient link to).

Look at the Wiki link at the top. It's everything you need on it n_n

Secondly, this is the rule I found:

"Don't insult other users, intentionally start drama or otherwise be an obnoxious troll."

Halite gave a useless and obnoxious response to a legitimate suggestion. I would contend that he broke that rule first.

While his (or her? idunno) reply wasn't the best. It is true, there's a link on the signup page that leads to the terms of service which in turn has a link to the rules (which in retrospect is a rather long way to reach to the same point)

Also, the upload form has a link to the ''how to upload'' page, that has the avoid posting list.

Though, I agree with you, the DNP List should be on the upload form for faster access.

Edit: Also, if you need help, feel free to PM some of the most active users (on the forums, admins too), do a blip, or comment or create a new thread here.

FlynnWurm said:
Firstly, I had to hunt down the rules (which there is no convenient link to). Secondly, this is the rule I found:

"Don't insult other users, intentionally start drama or otherwise be an obnoxious troll."

Halite gave a useless and obnoxious response to a legitimate suggestion. I would contend that he broke that rule first.

That's kinda like saying "well he started it". Please just don't add to it or retaliate. Simply report the comment and it will be handled. If you start spitting venom back, you'll get in trouble too.

Regarding the DNP list. We really should have it on the upload page and on a tab when looking up the wiki and tags. However, when you create an account it says that you have read the rules, and links them there. In the rules it says not to post DNP and gives a link to the list.

FlynnWurm said:
Firstly, I had to hunt down the rules (which there is no convenient link to). Secondly, this is the rule I found:

"Don't insult other users, intentionally start drama or otherwise be an obnoxious troll."

Halite gave a useless and obnoxious response to a legitimate suggestion. I would contend that he broke that rule first.

That was still sarcasm and his point a somewhat valid one, as he is correct on all accounts, making it slightly obnoxious but definitely neither troll nor trying to start drama.

But besides that, the top header could really use an overhaul in my opinion, it takes so many click to go from on end of the page to another that I bookmarked basically 80% of all distinct pages to save myself time and to find shit quicker.
And having links to relevant rules on pages where you do something (eg. DNP list on upload) would be a nice, little quality of life improvement.

FlynnWurm said:
Firstly, I had to hunt down the rules (which there is no convenient link to). Secondly, this is the rule I found:

"Don't insult other users, intentionally start drama or otherwise be an obnoxious troll."

Halite gave a useless and obnoxious response to a legitimate suggestion. I would contend that he broke that rule first.

A: There's a link to the rules right on the front page. (not to mention the one at the top of the account creation page)

B: Sarcasm isn't trolling, or starting drama, and I'm not the one calling someone a cock.

C: My response wasn't useless, it pointed out the already existing solution to the problem you were mention, while simultaneously conveying through tone and my use of sarcasm the fact that I feel our current solution is more than sufficient and doesn't require changes.

I'm sorry if you don't like the fact that I disagree with your view, but at least I'm not calling you names.

Rainbow_Dash said:
However, when you create an account it says that you have read the rules, and links them there.

NotMeNotYou said:
That was still sarcasm and his point a somewhat valid one, as he is correct on all accounts, making it slightly obnoxious but definitely neither troll nor trying to start drama.

Please see my above reply on why quoting things from when you signed up for the site is pointless. :/

FlynnWurm said:
Please see my above reply on why quoting things from when you signed up for the site is pointless. :/

How about the link that's right on the front page?

Halite said:
How about the link that's right on the front page?

I haven't seen the frontpage of this site since I joined it. Same is true of other sites like FurAffinity. I'm always in the user section, not the intro page, but since you brought it up...I don't see anything on the main page that says Rules, ToS, or anything of the sort.

"Wiki" does not make one think "rules", it makes one think "information". Wikis would therefore contain things like how the site got started, who runs it, how long it's been in operation, and so forth. It's a misassociation, and doesn't follow logic. I mean, if you look up Russia on a wiki, Russian law isn't going to be a featured article.

My point is, if you're going to have rules, they should be easy to find, and referenced in the user parts of the site most importantly of all.

FlynnWurm said:
Please see my above reply on why quoting things from when you signed up for the site is pointless. :/

There s another approach as well, you see that wiki at the top?
Wiki should be known as a source of information for all kinds of things by now and just like the real wikipedia you'll find everything important on these pages.

Also, not knowing the law doesn't safe you from the law, it is still your responsibility to make sure you know what you're doing or accept the consequences for not-knowing.

However, that still shouldn't deter us from making important information more easily accessible to all.
There's no reason to make it artificially hard for newbies to educate themselves on rules and the likes.

FlynnWurm said:
I haven't seen the frontpage of this site since I joined it. Same is true of other sites like FurAffinity. I'm always in the user section, not the intro page, but since you brought it up...I don't see anything on the main page that says Rules, ToS, or anything of the sort.

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t101/bladejtr/ss-11.png

I have best solution.
Have the site cause a new window of the rules to pop up every 5 minutes for everyone.
Then we all will see them.

Edit: After all, anything less and there will still be people who don't read them.

Edit2: Should I bring up the point that posting art without an artist's explicit permission is not only against site rules, but is also a violation of Federal law?
Nah.

Butterscotch said:
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t101/bladejtr/ss-11.png

Well son of a bitch...you're right, there it is. Easy to miss though, and still not in the user section. :)

I will say, the font size on the TOS link on the front page could be a bit larger.
It's on the small side.

Halite said:
Edit2: Should I bring up the point that posting art without an artist's explicit permission is not only against site rules, but is also a violation of Federal law?
Nah.

This is a problem not related directly to this site, but suffusing furry as a whole. US Copyright Law reads very poorly a lot of the time, but the basic gist is that if you own a character, and someone draws that character, that's fanart or reproduction of copyrighted material. You can't alter the art without permission, but otherwise you have the rights to it, given that it is your copyright.

This would mean that DNP does not apply if the poster is the owner of the character (and has permission from any other character's owners contained within).

Then again, it could all just be a giant mess. :D

This of course would not matter in the case of the pic by Jaleo, because his character is in it along with mine, thus any DNP would still apply. (The mind reels)

FlynnWurm said:
This is a problem not related directly to this site, but suffusing furry as a whole. US Copyright Law reads very poorly a lot of the time, but the basic gist is that if you own a character, and someone draws that character, that's fanart or reproduction of copyrighted material. You can't alter the art without permission, but otherwise you have the rights to it, given that it is your copyright.

This would mean that DNP does not apply if the poster is the owner of the character (and has permission from any other character's owners contained within).

Then again, it could all just be a giant mess. :D

Um, you can't copyright a character actually.
You can only trademark them, and then only if it's the "face of a brand" so to speak.
Like Mickey with Disney, or Tony the Tiger with Frosted Flakes etc.

They attempted in the past to apply copyright law to characters, and failed in the court systems.
You can copyright:
"literary works" includes not only what would ordinarily be thought of as "literature" (novels, poems, stories, essays, etc.) but also any "works expressed in words, numbers, or other verbal or numerical symbols or indicia," which includes computer programs and occasionally even things like lists of company inventory numbers.
"Musical compositions" includes both lyrics and melody or tune.
"Dramatic works" includes things like plays, screenplays, and TV scripts.
"Pantomimes and choreographic works" includes ballets, dances, or mime skits.
"Pictorial, sculptural, and graphic works" includes not only paintings, drawings, and prints, but also sculpture, maps, diagrams, blueprints, and other technical drawings.
"Audio visual works" includes movies, film strips, slide presentations, and presumably multi-media CD-ROM packages.
"Sound recordings" includes the actual sounds in a recording–that is, the particular tempo, arrangement, dynamics, and so on, as distinct from the musical composition. A "musical composition" can exist solely as sheet music; but a "sound recording" has to be an actual record of sound: vinyl record, audio-cassesste tape, audio CD, etc.
"Architectural works" includes the design of a building, as represented by the building itself, or by the plans. The plans would also be copyrightable as a "pictorial, sculptural, and graphic work" (in this case, a pictorial or graphic work).

And no, pictorial, sculptural, and graphic works does not apply to characters, that's what they tried in the courts.

The art is copyrighted to the artist, unless it is explicitly in writing transferred to someone else.

In any case, it is a site rule to not post art without first asking the artist, so the DNP list isn't strictly required, if you ask, and they're DNP the artist would probably tell you that.

Halite said:
In any case, it is a site rule to not post art without first asking the artist, so the DNP list isn't strictly required, if you ask, and they're DNP the artist would probably tell you that.

It's funny, artists usually tell me in advance if they have a problem with it, or any specific restrictions. I've never actually had this come up with any art I've gotten so far, so I'm asking the artist about it to get his thoughts. :)

I also think US Copyright Law seriously needs a rewrite at this point.

Jesus christ stop attacking each other.

Yes, we'll try to make the avoid posting list easier to find (especially on the upload page). It's just difficult to find an ideal solution for stuff like this because (at least for the moment) we're trying to keep the code able to be reused on more than one site, so we can't just edit the HTML to point to a specific wiki page because that page won't necessarily exist on any other site running this code.

If you think the copyright law is bad, you should see the patent law, it's a damn joke.

Halite said:
If you think the copyright law is bad, you should see the patent law, it's a damn joke.

Oh I don't doubt it. :P

My retort was mostly meant to be funny, I was just really put off by the sarcastic reply. Even the first admin to reply said it was a good suggestion. I honestly wasn't trying to start anything, so if you really took it seriously, then I apologize.

Halite said:
Um, you can't copyright a character actually.
You can only trademark them, and then only if it's the "face of a brand" so to speak.

Incorrect; even though it's CONSTANTLY debated, even in courts, in general, you may copyright character designs and traits as long as they are sufficiently unique, (well developed story, a unique design that cannot be confused with another ever so easily.
The key words for character copyright are the following

"Especially distinctive" I'll use my my avatar character for example, long horns, spines, fuzzy tail, distinctive color pattern. It's distinct and I could claim copyright over her design if I wanted to. If the character is extremely fleshed out personality wise and not just "a hard boiled detective" you can claim copyright on that as well.

Which leads to rule number two
"The story being told"
This applies more to movies and written works. The character may be copyrighted if they are integral to the story, not just a pawn or a minion or something like that, but a contributor, someone that cannot be replaced/removed or the plot would fall apart. A character that devises a plot, causes conflict, resolves it in a way that would be unique would be copyrightable, however the guy who follows every order, would not be.

Let's break this down simpler
Mickey Mouse is copyright, the birds in snow white aren't.

Mickey Mouse is a trademark.

Halite said:
Mickey Mouse is a trademark.

TECHNICALLY he's both, Mickey mouse is a copyrighted character of walt disney, but he also is a Trademarked character of the Disney organization. Unlike popular belief, these two terms are not legally exclusive. Most, if not all Disney/Nintendo/Pokemon characters are trademarked AND copyrighted. That's just how the law works.

Yes characters can be copyrighted. If they couldn't, then (to the best of my knowledge) characters that only existed in books would have no legal protection at all. Someone could just make Sherlock Holmes the main character of their own book and there's nothing the original author could do about it. There's actually a legal battle that's been going on recently with Sherlock Holmes about this: http://www.theguardian.com/law/2013/sep/19/sherlock-holmes-us-copyright-complex-defence

With that being said, I think this thread has gotten off-topic enough to be locked.